James Wiseman

[nolang1]

Yeah, when in doubt always take the wing over the center.

AD is as trascendal as they come and he never got out of the first round. Jokic is struggling in the post-season. Embiid just go swept. You take the 6'7/6'8 wing with scoring and creation potential 10/10 times if your team sucks.

I'm on the "suns should get more fire for passing on Doncic than they get" boat.

You realize that even if the talent in the league were distributed so evenly that a team's ability to advance in the postseason was dictated solely by how good their best player was, only the 8 best players in the league would get out of the first round each year. AD did in fact get out of the first round in 2018 (then his team lost to the Warriors, what a bum I guess). Jokic got out of the first round last season, and Embiid got out of the first round the two seasons prior. Horrible, horrible examples all around, and that's before even getting into what one would have to be smoking to think that anyone in this draft is even close to Doncic.

Yeah but hes supposed to be a top 8 player. Those yrs I mean. The NO Pelicans weren't lacking in talent. And I think that's what he meant when he said transcendent. He never denied his ability, moreso the ability of coaches or teams nowadays to build a franchise around a big man, which really is a shame of today's basketball. You're more likely to win as a big by submitting to being a role player.

But hey, he won this yr and for the first time in my life I watched Lebron defer to a bigman from a statistical stand point.

They certainly were lacking in talent compared to other West playoff teams (especially if you have better memory than a goldfish and can recall that many of the veterans they surrounded Davis with were notoriously unable to stay healthy), which is evidence enough that you're BSing. Or if you're saying the bar for 'trascendal' is being capable at age 22 of dragging a team that had players like Dante Cunningham, Ryan Anderson, and Alonzo Gee playing more minutes than Eric Gordon and players like Norris Cole, Toney Douglas, Luke Babbit, and Alexis Ajinca playing more minutes than Tyreke Evans to the playoffs in the West (and probably winning a round or two, because otherwise you'd probably still just say they couldn't build a winning team around him), well then it's safe to say that nobody besides LeBron or maybe Luka (hell, even Michael Jordan didn't lead a team to a winning record or get out of the first round of the playoffs until his age 24 season) could reach that standard and you're definitely not going to find that kind of player in Wiseman or anyone else in this draft.

Each of the last 8 NBA champs has been led by at least 1 of like 4-5 players who were drafted between 1997 and 2011, so simple math would dictate that A) these kinds of players do not come around every year and B) they typically do not hit that level until they're older than Davis was during his New Orleans tenure.

The Nuggets made the conference finals and Jokic in his age 24 season was probably the 3rd-4th best player of the entire playoffs, so there's another team that's having a fine enough time building around a big man. People love to throw out all this talk like "long and versatile two-way playmaking wings have the most upside to be a transcendental franchise cornerstone" when it's just a needlessly jargon-filled way of saying "the best players are good at a lot of things and don't have any major weaknesses" which is both obvious enough already and not very relevant when discussing a group of players who all do have some holes in their game.

[big-shot-ROB]

You realize that even if the talent in the league were distributed so evenly that a team's ability to advance in the postseason was dictated solely by how good their best player was, only the 8 best players in the league would get out of the first round each year. AD did in fact get out of the first round in 2018 (then his team lost to the Warriors, what a bum I guess). Jokic got out of the first round last season, and Embiid got out of the first round the two seasons prior. Horrible, horrible examples all around, and that's before even getting into what one would have to be smoking to think that anyone in this draft is even close to Doncic.

Yeah but hes supposed to be a top 8 player. Those yrs I mean. The NO Pelicans weren't lacking in talent. And I think that's what he meant when he said transcendent. He never denied his ability, moreso the ability of coaches or teams nowadays to build a franchise around a big man, which really is a shame of today's basketball. You're more likely to win as a big by submitting to being a role player.

But hey, he won this yr and for the first time in my life I watched Lebron defer to a bigman from a statistical stand point.

They certainly were lacking in talent compared to other West playoff teams (especially if you have better memory than a goldfish and can recall that many of the veterans they surrounded Davis with were notoriously unable to stay healthy), which is evidence enough that you're BSing. Or if you're saying the bar for 'trascendal' is being capable at age 22 of dragging a team that had players like Dante Cunningham, Ryan Anderson, and Alonzo Gee playing more minutes than Eric Gordon and players like Norris Cole, Toney Douglas, Luke Babbit, and Alexis Ajinca playing more minutes than Tyreke Evans to the playoffs in the West (and probably winning a round or two, because otherwise you'd probably still just say they couldn't build a winning team around him), well then it's safe to say that nobody besides LeBron or maybe Luka (hell, even Michael Jordan didn't lead a team to a winning record or get out of the first round of the playoffs until his age 24 season) could reach that standard and you're definitely not going to find that kind of player in Wiseman or anyone else in this draft.

Each of the last 8 NBA champs has been led by at least 1 of like 4-5 players who were drafted between 1997 and 2011, so simple math would dictate that A) these kinds of players do not come around every year and B) they typically do not hit that level until they're older than Davis was during his New Orleans tenure.

The Nuggets made the conference finals and Jokic in his age 24 season was probably the 3rd-4th best player of the entire playoffs, so there's another team that's having a fine enough time building around a big man. People love to throw out all this talk like "long and versatile two-way playmaking wings have the most upside to be a transcendental franchise cornerstone" when it's just a needlessly jargon-filled way of saying "the best players are good at a lot of things and don't have any major weaknesses" which is both obvious enough already and not very relevant when discussing a group of players who all do have some holes in their game.

Wiseman has not path to become the #1 option on a championship team. Davis was miles better than him as a prospect and couldn't lead anywhere, Jokic is once in a lifetime player and barely compares to any other center.

Hell, Wiseman might be worse than Ayton and I even have very severe doubts about him.

[BlazersBroncos]

I think Wiseman can be a fine #2 on a perennial playoff team, or an elite #3. Same with Ayton, albiet I see him more as a #2. Wiseman has movement skills that, for his size, are truly special. His issue is that, IMO, he may flounder on a bad team. On a good team, like GSW, I can see him 'buy in' and get really good early returns.

[WalterBenjamin]

What basketball skills does he have? I see is just a rim runner.

[XTC]

Honestly Wiseman in intriguing. He has the skillset and athleticism when you look back at a draft and you go man why didnt he go first?

With the being said he definetly has his red flags. I could see why some are wary of him.

[Nazrmohamed]

You realize that even if the talent in the league were distributed so evenly that a team's ability to advance in the postseason was dictated solely by how good their best player was, only the 8 best players in the league would get out of the first round each year. AD did in fact get out of the first round in 2018 (then his team lost to the Warriors, what a bum I guess). Jokic got out of the first round last season, and Embiid got out of the first round the two seasons prior. Horrible, horrible examples all around, and that's before even getting into what one would have to be smoking to think that anyone in this draft is even close to Doncic.

Yeah but hes supposed to be a top 8 player. Those yrs I mean. The NO Pelicans weren't lacking in talent. And I think that's what he meant when he said transcendent. He never denied his ability, moreso the ability of coaches or teams nowadays to build a franchise around a big man, which really is a shame of today's basketball. You're more likely to win as a big by submitting to being a role player.

But hey, he won this yr and for the first time in my life I watched Lebron defer to a bigman from a statistical stand point.

They certainly were lacking in talent compared to other West playoff teams (especially if you have better memory than a goldfish and can recall that many of the veterans they surrounded Davis with were notoriously unable to stay healthy), which is evidence enough that you're BSing. Or if you're saying the bar for 'trascendal' is being capable at age 22 of dragging a team that had players like Dante Cunningham, Ryan Anderson, and Alonzo Gee playing more minutes than Eric Gordon and players like Norris Cole, Toney Douglas, Luke Babbit, and Alexis Ajinca playing more minutes than Tyreke Evans to the playoffs in the West (and probably winning a round or two, because otherwise you'd probably still just say they couldn't build a winning team around him), well then it's safe to say that nobody besides LeBron or maybe Luka (hell, even Michael Jordan didn't lead a team to a winning record or get out of the first round of the playoffs until his age 24 season) could reach that standard and you're definitely not going to find that kind of player in Wiseman or anyone else in this draft.

Each of the last 8 NBA champs has been led by at least 1 of like 4-5 players who were drafted between 1997 and 2011, so simple math would dictate that A) these kinds of players do not come around every year and B) they typically do not hit that level until they're older than Davis was during his New Orleans tenure.

The Nuggets made the conference finals and Jokic in his age 24 season was probably the 3rd-4th best player of the entire playoffs, so there's another team that's having a fine enough time building around a big man. People love to throw out all this talk like "long and versatile two-way playmaking wings have the most upside to be a transcendental franchise cornerstone" when it's just a needlessly jargon-filled way of saying "the best players are good at a lot of things and don't have any major weaknesses" which is both obvious enough already and not very relevant when discussing a group of players who all do have some holes in their game.

You're either a transcendent player at 22yrs old or you're not. And its ok if you're not but fans and media would've made you think he was. If one were to say that by the time he reached the Lakers he would be that player then fine. But people have been saying it for yrs. He was considered the best PF in the league and some would say top 5 player for the last 4yrs. Some even say top 3.

But that's not really my point anyway. Hes a great player and I do believe he is a top 3 player. I also had the belief that he would be the player he is now along the way but my issue is it just happens one day. Today I'm an emerging star......tomorrow I an a bonafide star and not a second before.


My point really was less about Davis specifically. He was used because HE IS the best big in the league. It was more about whether ANY big man can be the best player on a team and that team win and we really haven't seen it since Dirk. Best player on the best team and they won a title. I'll even drop the bar to conference finals and still its few and far between. Jokic was refreshing. Id say AD was the best player in the finals from a dominance standpoint. But Lebron was still the leader of this team and thats a whole other conversation I could have about Lebrons evolution as a superstar, where he can use other star players as tools in his toolbox while still maintaining that aura of leadership over the team. But I think things could be changing so that your argument is 100% true. I just dont know that there's enough of a sample size yet.

[Nazrmohamed]

What basketball skills does he have? I see is just a rim runner.

...with a budding jumpshot. Needs to get more shots up to really say hes a consistent shooter but he did show he can make shots out to 18ft. As a third area I'd say hes got a little bit of a post game. All of these areas need work btw but hes demonstrated some ability for it to be part of his skillset. Comparatively take a guy like Mitchell Robinson. Now thats a rim runner exclusively. I've seen some shots he took in workouts but in terms of in-game I've never seen him post up, I've seen maybe 3 jump shots taken in 2 yrs.

So I wouldn't rate those skills as high or even developed in Wiseman but I do think hes shown some ability and willingness to do it and it's up to his coaches to develop that into real games for him.

[WalterBenjamin]

He is an athletic Big who has potential to shoot and isnt projected to be an above average big defender. No thanks....

[yosemiteben]

What basketball skills does he have? I see is just a rim runner.

He blocked 9 shots in 69 minutes played. If you extrapolate that out, you get absurd numbers like 5.2 blocks per 40 min.

Even given small sample size, have to think he'll be an ok paint defender.

[King Ken]

What basketball skills does he have? I see is just a rim runner.

His size, speed, length, and natural talent but as far as translatable skill, he's a rim runner based on what I've seen live offensively. His workout tapes have been intriguing. He shows some iso abilities which is extremely hard to find in bigs. Defensively, obviously rebounding and shot-blocking.

[SF_Warriors]

Offensively, Wiseman seems to have a diverse skillset. I think he will be a jack of all trades, master of none type of player on that end. He does not seem to be elite in any area whether it is jumpshooting, face up, post up, ball handling, passing.

From what I've seen:
He has an effective midrange game out to 17-18 feet. He has advanced footwork and touch on turnaround jumpers from around 12-15 feet. No 3 point range, not even close.
He has a very effective looking hookshot, definitely can be one of the best in the league due to his touch and range on that shot, coupled with his length.
He is very coordinated with the ball in the open court. He looks like he can make plays in the open court, not just run, catch, and dunk.
Great hands on the catch. Average hands on the lob.
Pretty good touch around the basket, not just a dunker.
Does not force the issue, willing/smart passer. Not going to be an elite passing big, but will make the right play. Has great court awareness.

I am not sold on his ability to create his own shot or become an elite defender, but he does project to be an above average center.

[WalterBenjamin]

I belive he can add one thing to his arsenal at an elite level. But two... The chances are minimal that he becomes a playeron the level of, say prime Horford.

[BostonCouchGM]

You can't teach size, length and athleticism while having skill. And he's elite in that regard. Who else in the NBA can compare? Ayton, KAT and Embiid? So three of the top 5 centers in the game? In limited time he showed as much as Embiid ever did in college so why are people down on him when they've seen Embiid become so good? The foundation is there. We don't know his work ethic, maturity or intelligence obviously. But if he's not a knucklehead, he should be at worst a rim runner who is going to give teams fits down low, in transition and in the PnR. He'll likely never be able to defend the perimeter but who at his size does? Literally nobody. So holding him to some impossible standard is dumb. If he develops a nice 15 footer, hits his FTs and eventually expands out to the 3 pt line he should be golden. He's an ELITE prospect. I don't understand how people don't see this. He's not some slow-footed, lumbering 7 footer like Gobert. He runs the floor like a deer. He's a bigger Mitchell Robinson and everyone knows he's an effective NBA player even though he's been limited by the trash organization that drafted him. So at worse, Mitchell Robinson? Isn't that worth getting hyped about? And is there a single other guy his size in the draft? The drop off to the next 7 footer is like a full round. There's a bunch of 6'9 and 6'10" guys pretending to be centers while he's a bonafide center. So if you need one, he's the guy to target imo.

[PhilLeotardo]

Yeah, when in doubt always take the wing over the center.

AD is as trascendal as they come and he never got out of the first round. Jokic is struggling in the post-season. Embiid just go swept. You take the 6'7/6'8 wing with scoring and creation potential 10/10 times if your team sucks.

I'm on the "suns should get more fire for passing on Doncic than they get" boat.

You realize that even if the talent in the league were distributed so evenly that a team's ability to advance in the postseason was dictated solely by how good their best player was, only the 8 best players in the league would get out of the first round each year. AD did in fact get out of the first round in 2018 (then his team lost to the Warriors, what a bum I guess). Jokic got out of the first round last season, and Embiid got out of the first round the two seasons prior. Horrible, horrible examples all around, and that's before even getting into what one would have to be smoking to think that anyone in this draft is even close to Doncic.

Yeah but hes supposed to be a top 8 player. Those yrs I mean. The NO Pelicans weren't lacking in talent. And I think that's what he meant when he said transcendent. He never denied his ability, moreso the ability of coaches or teams nowadays to build a franchise around a big man, which really is a shame of today's basketball. You're more likely to win as a big by submitting to being a role player.

But hey, he won this yr and for the first time in my life I watched Lebron defer to a bigman from a statistical stand point.

He “won” a glorified summer league tourney. I don’t ever see Davis staying healthy enough to win an actual NBA championship as a major piece

Yes, NOLA had solid teams around him. Old timey Centers simply aren’t The Guys in the contemporary league, plain & simple

And to the user above who said “all it takes is one Center to alter perception” lmao. No. Not even close. Huge lumbering centers are dying out for a reason: it’s the most irrelevant player archetype in the modern NBA, due almost solely to the fact that they are unable to defend the perimeter, or to defend anything outside of the paint, really

[PhilLeotardo]

Yeah, when in doubt always take the wing over the center.

AD is as trascendal as they come and he never got out of the first round. Jokic is struggling in the post-season. Embiid just go swept. You take the 6'7/6'8 wing with scoring and creation potential 10/10 times if your team sucks.

I'm on the "suns should get more fire for passing on Doncic than they get" boat.

Facepalms all around

[BlazersBroncos]

Yeah, when in doubt always take the wing over the center.

AD is as trascendal as they come and he never got out of the first round. Jokic is struggling in the post-season. Embiid just go swept. You take the 6'7/6'8 wing with scoring and creation potential 10/10 times if your team sucks.

I'm on the "suns should get more fire for passing on Doncic than they get" boat.

Jokic struggling in the postseason? Did I just read that right? The same Jokic that has played 33 playoff games by age 24 and averaged:

26.9 PER / .60 TS% / .212 WS48 / 7.1 OBPM / 2.2 DBPM / 1.8 VOPR?

That Jokic?

And Joel was swept by a team that made the Finals in a series where his best teammate was out. He still managed elite raw and advanced stats.

[big-shot-ROB]

Using Jokic as positive argument for Wiseman is completly losing the point.

Wiseman WILL NEVER be Jokic. Jokic isn't even a center by the traditional definition. Wiseman will be a rim-runner. You can find rim-runner everywhere.

All I'm saying he's not as good as you are making him to be. I'd draft him top-5 for sure, but stop throwing names like Jokic and Kat around him. He'll never be that player.

You are obsessed with centers.

[Ruzious]

I think people are down-playing his scoring ability. He'll likely be a big scorer in the NBA. He'll also be a shot-blocker but probably not a very good all-around defender.

[BadWolf]

You just described Whiteside.

[Ruzious]

You just described Whiteside.

He is a lot like Whiteside - except probably without the lousy intangibles.