Luka Doncic part II

[XTraderXL]

Yesterdays game showed what some of us have been saying for weeks now. His physical fitness is just not on the level it needs to be. Up to this point Luka was relying on his bball talent. He still know what he wants/needs to do but his body just doesnt allow it. He gets frustrated, that starts to affect the mental aspect of the game and this is what you get.

Laso has to give him 2-3 days off, let him blow off some steam away from basketball and the team. At this point I think thats the best thing they can do to get him back to his previous level of play. They dont play in ACB this weekend, next game is on Friday and they could easily give him a pass until Monday.

Last year the same thing happened, his play fell off in the latter part of the season. I think he has hit rock bottom and it can only go up from here. I think we will see the old Doncic within a couple of weeks. All he needs is some rest, to take his mind off of basketball for a day or two and a good game performance and he will be back. Nothing to worry about. At least not yet....

[SportsGuy8]

We're going to be seeing more and more such games in this last third of his season (it basically started in August for him). Such schedules are absolutely grueling, just ask NBA players.

Anyone who has done any sport seriously knows how these things work. You don't just get adapted to such body-taxing situations by being young, even training hard on your conditioning doesn't adapt you enough, instead you need to be put in real-life situations for your body to truly start adapting.

Doncic looked much more fresh, energetic, with more hop to his step at the start of the season, which is a clear indication what's going on.

P.s.: Him not looking like a clear #1 pick might be a blessing in disguise for him. It increases the probability of him ending up on a team that truly believes in him.

[UcanUwill]

Hate to being reactionary, but Doncic stock is falling down hard as of late. Doesnt look like a sure thing at all.

While he hasn't been playing well lately, I do think that's a bit reactionary.

Since the start of the Slovenian practice matches and Eurobasket up until the end of December, he consistently played at an incredibly high level, and I'd say even in January he was pretty good in general, although obviously worse than his previous level. His February was pretty bad, but I think it's normal for every player, regardless of their level, to have a dip in performance sometime during the season. With these last 2 matches, I think he's hit the bottom of the slope.

I think the next 2 games in EL at home against Fener and Pana (both of which are incredibly important for Real) will be crucial for Doncic. If he plays well it will be a good indication that he's returning back to his usual level, however, if he underperforms in those games as well, I think that's when this whole thing starts to become really concerning, and that's when his draft position could take a hit (especially if Porter start playing, and he shows good signs).

Every player has bad games, but this stretch really highlighted his weaknesses. Guy is just pretty slow, and he is not getting faster with age. I hope that he Kevin Loves it, drops some serious weight and add definition. Only that way he can improve his physical traits.

[Mirotic12]

He's a 19 year old kid (in 4 days), playing in ACB / EuroLeague, in one of the major clubs (Real Madrid)....the season is very long and grueling, and now teams prepare for him, and now the season is starting to get into some more serious games.

Just like he struggled a lot last year in the EuroLeague Final Four and the ACB Finals....

It's called being a 19 year old college freshman aged player, playing in a very high level men's league.

If people thought he would keep up the pace he had earlier in the year, all season, then they have absolutely zero concept of the level of competition he is playing at. Like last season, some people here were arguing he was going to be final four MVP and lead his team to a title - that was incredibly absurd and ridiculous. Him struggling at that point of the season was totally predictable.

So to it is totally predictable that his numbers were going to drop this season, once Real got back some injured players, the games got more important, and opposing teams started to plan more strategy for Doncic defensively.

If Doncic was just going to tear through modern EuroLeague at age 18-19, then he would be the greatest talent ever in basketball history. It's clear from comments here, that the vast majority of people in these forums have no grasp of how high the level of competition is that he's playing at, for a 18-19 year old kid.

I guarantee no NCAA player would be even remotely close to his same production, if they were playing in Real Madrid.

Doncic having ups and downs, and slumps, just proves the enormous difference from a big EuroLeague team to NCAA. If anything, it should strengthen his case to go #1 overall, because he's going to be like at least 2 years ahead of any NCAA player in his development and NBA readiness.

[Thespianoid]

Hate to being reactionary, but Doncic stock is falling down hard as of late. Doesnt look like a sure thing at all.

While he hasn't been playing well lately, I do think that's a bit reactionary.

Since the start of the Slovenian practice matches and Eurobasket up until the end of December, he consistently played at an incredibly high level, and I'd say even in January he was pretty good in general, although obviously worse than his previous level. His February was pretty bad, but I think it's normal for every player, regardless of their level, to have a dip in performance sometime during the season. With these last 2 matches, I think he's hit the bottom of the slope.

I think the next 2 games in EL at home against Fener and Pana (both of which are incredibly important for Real) will be crucial for Doncic. If he plays well it will be a good indication that he's returning back to his usual level, however, if he underperforms in those games as well, I think that's when this whole thing starts to become really concerning, and that's when his draft position could take a hit (especially if Porter start playing, and he shows good signs).

Every player has bad games, but this stretch really highlighted his weaknesses. Guy is just pretty slow, and he is not getting faster with age. I hope that he Kevin Loves it, drops some serious weight and add definition. Only that way he can improve his physical traits.

he will get faster if he goes back to P3 for the best training and has an extended rest period to recover from extreme fatigue. that's really all there is to say.

the age factor with athleticism (the younger you are is the best you will be athletically) is a myth. The younger you are the better, but players can always improve until genetics/biology dictates decline, which is never at age 19. They simply have to go through the right training. From what I've seen most players never get the best training even at the NBA level. Actually a huge deficit area, as not all NBA training staffs are made equal. There are a few way ahead of the curve.

if you look at any of his movement from 15-16 and 16-17 you see a glimpse of his future movement abilities, but not the ceiling. Only scratching the surface of development in that department.

[MemphisX]

He's a 19 year old kid (in 4 days), playing in ACB / EuroLeague, in one of the major clubs (Real Madrid)....the season is very long and grueling, and now teams prepare for him, and now the season is starting to get into some more serious games.

Just like he struggled a lot last year in the EuroLeague Final Four and the ACB Finals....

It's called being a 19 year old college freshman aged player, playing in a very high level men's league.

If people thought he would keep up the pace he had earlier in the year, all season, then they have absolutely zero concept of the level of competition he is playing at. Like last season, some people here were arguing he was going to be final four MVP and lead his team to a title - that was incredibly absurd and ridiculous. Him struggling at that point of the season was totally predictable.

So to it is totally predictable that his numbers were going to drop this season, once Real got back some injured players, the games got more important, and opposing teams started to plan more strategy for Doncic defensively.

If Doncic was just going to tear through modern EuroLeague at age 18-19, then he would be the greatest talent ever in basketball history. It's clear from comments here, that the vast majority of people in these forums have no grasp of how high the level of competition is that he's playing at, for a 18-19 year old kid.

I guarantee no NCAA player would be even remotely close to his same production, if they were playing in Real Madrid.

Doncic having ups and downs, and slumps, just proves the enormous difference from a big EuroLeague team to NCAA. If anything, it should strengthen his case to go #1 overall, because he's going to be like at least 2 years ahead of any NCAA player in his development and NBA readiness.

There is a lot of hyperbole about the toughness of the Euro league and a lot of it goes unchallenged for the most part. The Euro league is tough but it is not more TALENTED than NCAA basketball especially from a NBA standpoint.

[burek3]

He collapsed under the load. Hopefully a good thing for him, to have this kind of frustration get the better of him BEFORE NBA.

The game was not even close... The matter of fact, all games with the exception of one (CSKA-VAL) in this round were horrifically one-sided. This probably indicates global low point of the season.

I don't have too much fear for Luka. I will be happy if he is going to step up in the playoffs.

[Thespianoid]

He's a 19 year old kid (in 4 days), playing in ACB / EuroLeague, in one of the major clubs (Real Madrid)....the season is very long and grueling, and now teams prepare for him, and now the season is starting to get into some more serious games.

Just like he struggled a lot last year in the EuroLeague Final Four and the ACB Finals....

It's called being a 19 year old college freshman aged player, playing in a very high level men's league.

If people thought he would keep up the pace he had earlier in the year, all season, then they have absolutely zero concept of the level of competition he is playing at. Like last season, some people here were arguing he was going to be final four MVP and lead his team to a title - that was incredibly absurd and ridiculous. Him struggling at that point of the season was totally predictable.

So to it is totally predictable that his numbers were going to drop this season, once Real got back some injured players, the games got more important, and opposing teams started to plan more strategy for Doncic defensively.

If Doncic was just going to tear through modern EuroLeague at age 18-19, then he would be the greatest talent ever in basketball history. It's clear from comments here, that the vast majority of people in these forums have no grasp of how high the level of competition is that he's playing at, for a 18-19 year old kid.

I guarantee no NCAA player would be even remotely close to his same production, if they were playing in Real Madrid.

Doncic having ups and downs, and slumps, just proves the enormous difference from a big EuroLeague team to NCAA. If anything, it should strengthen his case to go #1 overall, because he's going to be like at least 2 years ahead of any NCAA player in his development and NBA readiness.

There is a lot of hyperbole about the toughness of the Euro league and a lot of it goes unchallenged for the most part. The Euro league is tough but it is not more TALENTED than NCAA basketball especially from a NBA standpoint.

talent means nothing if it doesn't translate into production.

the vast majority of NCAA players are not professional level basketball players. that is who most NCAA prospects face each game, not the blue-chip top tier NBA prospects and possible pro level players, who they may face maybe a cumulative 10 games during an entire season. And even then, they may not even be matched up or affect their play over the course of a game. And if they do, it may not be for an entire game, or even half a game, to as little as a couple possessions.

I really don't understand why the NCAA vs Euroleague/ACB gap is so difficult to grasp. The more I read opinions the more I think it's a US exceptionalist/raw run-jump athleticism bias. And I say this as an American.

[XTraderXL]

Hate to being reactionary, but Doncic stock is falling down hard as of late. Doesnt look like a sure thing at all.

While he hasn't been playing well lately, I do think that's a bit reactionary.

Since the start of the Slovenian practice matches and Eurobasket up until the end of December, he consistently played at an incredibly high level, and I'd say even in January he was pretty good in general, although obviously worse than his previous level. His February was pretty bad, but I think it's normal for every player, regardless of their level, to have a dip in performance sometime during the season. With these last 2 matches, I think he's hit the bottom of the slope.

I think the next 2 games in EL at home against Fener and Pana (both of which are incredibly important for Real) will be crucial for Doncic. If he plays well it will be a good indication that he's returning back to his usual level, however, if he underperforms in those games as well, I think that's when this whole thing starts to become really concerning, and that's when his draft position could take a hit (especially if Porter start playing, and he shows good signs).

Every player has bad games, but this stretch really highlighted his weaknesses. Guy is just pretty slow, and he is not getting faster with age. I hope that he Kevin Loves it, drops some serious weight and add definition. Only that way he can improve his physical traits.

We already knew his natural physical ability is not the best. Some players are just naturally gifted athletes and they do not need as much additional training in that department to be/stay great. Players like Luka have to be doing that type of training their whole career and will never be on the level of freak athletes who just do it here and there.

And you are wrong that the only way he can improve his physical traits is dropping weight, way wrong. He needs to add weight to be stronger and lose body fat. That way he will get faster and more explosive as well. Like Thespanoid said, the younger you are the more athletic you are is nonsense. I was able to do things athletically at 25-26 that I could never do at 19-20 and I went from 82kg at 19 to 95-97kg at 25, which was my optimum playing weight. I was much much stronger which allowed me to really use the explosiveness and quickness to my advantage. If you are weak like Luka is, you get pushed around by the defense and you can not really use the explosion or quickness. Contact just slows you down and added weight and strenght will help with that immensely. Of course, he has to add the right type of muscle in the right areas.


If the myth of being at your physical best at 19 would be true, than all the sprinters would set world records at 19 years of age and that is just not the case. There has been none that did that, not even one. Usain Bolt set his WRs at 23-24. He even admitted that he could do better later in his career but he just didnt work as hard anymore, he did just enough to win. And this is just running track, you hear the bang and run in a straight line. Nothing complicated. Basketball is much more complex, you have to learn 100 differnent things and work on them and that takes years to develop.

Luka already showed what he can do athletically a while ago and he can get past that level in the future which with added strenght should be more than enough at the NBA level. Right now he is in the worst physical condition than he ever was before so you cant really judge him at this moment. Everyone on this forum knew that there is a real possibility of this happening later in the season so it shouldnt come as a surprise. In fact, I expected a drop in his perfromance much earlier than mid February. He will be fine, last year at the end of the season there were the same questions and we know how he came back and what happened after some rest. By far the most productive player in the EL for the first half of the season. That was not an accident...

[UcanUwill]

Ok, how many players gets more athletic when they leave their teen years? Look up most NBA hyper athletes' film when they were in high school, all of them were even more athletic back then. How many people gets more athletic with age, few maybe. One I can remember is probably Jabari Parker. Some fanboys are just hanging on this faith that player with somehow improve athletically. its a pipe dream.

I say the best case for Doncic is losing weight, because losing weight is easy. I would love if he became jacked as Giannis, but very few basketball players has that work ethic to work with weights. Thats why I never put my faith on such scenario.

[XTraderXL]

Come on man, do you seriously think NBA players are more athletic at 16-17 than 25? They maybe look more athletic because they play against players that will never ever be in the NBA or even play pro in Philippines so the contrast makes you think that. Can you then explain why all the best track&field athletes who compete in disciplines that mostly have to do with speed/explosiveness (sprint, long jump, high jump) are not 16-18? I would really like to hear your explanation...

You are completely wrong on this...

[realEAST]

Gordon Hayward, commonly mentioned name, is one of those guys who improved with time in NBA. He added strenght (and weight), while becoming more explosive. He was worse athlete than Luka is, when he left college. He's not now.

[UcanUwill]

Come on man, do you seriously think NBA players are more athletic at 16-17 than 25? They maybe look more athletic because they play against players that will never ever be in the NBA or even play pro in Philippines so the contrast makes you think that. Can you then explain why all the best track&field athletes who compete in disciplines that mostly have to do with speed/explosiveness (sprint, long jump, high jump) are not 16-18? I would really like to hear your explanation...

You are completely wrong on this...

I am no expert, but these athletes of other sports are on completely different and far intense physical training programs. If you trained like them, I do believe you can trend upwards until you 30.
I just had this discussion with another person some time about, and she tried to convince me that swimmers and other athletes peak in their teens.

[XTraderXL]

Come on man, do you seriously think NBA players are more athletic at 16-17 than 25? They maybe look more athletic because they play against players that will never ever be in the NBA or even play pro in Philippines so the contrast makes you think that. Can you then explain why all the best track&field athletes who compete in disciplines that mostly have to do with speed/explosiveness (sprint, long jump, high jump) are not 16-18? I would really like to hear your explanation...

You are completely wrong on this...

I am no expert, but these athletes of other sports are on completely different and far intense physical training programs. If you trained like them, I do believe you can trend upwards until you 30.
I just had this discussion with another person some time about, and she tried to convince me that swimmers and other athletes peak in their teens.

Do you think that once Luka gets to the NBA he will not have intense physical training? Thats the first thing he will go through when he comes over and will be doing it every summer through his whole career. Physically peaking in your teens is just an idiotic idea. Your body isnt even fully developed yet in your teens. Its so stupid, I dont even want to debate it. If you ever did any sport in a serious capacity through your teens and 20s, you will find this idea laughable. It is true, women peak phisically earlier due to biological reasons but men are at their physical peak around 25 in terms of explosiveness and speed. Of course that the case for trained athletes. Strength wise you peak even later than that, around 35-40.

If you think this is it for Luka, you are very wrong in my opinion. We will get an answer soon enough and know whats up by the end of the summer. I said this over a month ago, I will be able to project his ceiling much more accurately after he goes through the whole summer in the US. If he can not improve in this area, then he will be just an above average starter in the NBA. As simple as that.

[UcanUwill]

Do you think that once Luka gets to the NBA he will not have intense physical training? Thats the first thing he will go through when he comes over and will be doing it every summer through his whole career. Physically peaking in your teens is just an idiotic idea. Your body isnt even fully developed yet in your teens. Its so stupid, I dont even want to debate it. If you ever did any sport in a serious capacity through your teens and 20s, you will find this idea laughable. It is true, women peak phisically earlier due to biological reasons but men are at their physical peak around 25 in terms of explosiveness and speed. Of course that the case for trained athletes. Strength wise you peak even later than that, around 35-40.

If you think this is it for Luka, you are very wrong in my opinion. We will get an answer soon enough and know whats up by the end of the summer. I said this over a month ago, I will be able to project his ceiling much more accurately after he goes through the whole summer in the US. If he can not improve in this area, then he will be just an above average starter in the NBA. As simple as that.

Well, I am certain that strength improves with age, but bounce and stamina, I am not sure.

And I doubt Doncic will get into intense physical training once he steps in the NBA. Its not given. Look at Gasol brothers or Andrea Bargnani with their shirt off, they look like they never worked out in their life. It all depends on work ethic, and you dont have to be in the NBA to work on your body. So far I haven't seen enough of Doncic to be sure he will develop and transform his body. Gordon Hayward is a good example, but that guy is in great shape,

[XTraderXL]

Do you think that once Luka gets to the NBA he will not have intense physical training? Thats the first thing he will go through when he comes over and will be doing it every summer through his whole career. Physically peaking in your teens is just an idiotic idea. Your body isnt even fully developed yet in your teens. Its so stupid, I dont even want to debate it. If you ever did any sport in a serious capacity through your teens and 20s, you will find this idea laughable. It is true, women peak phisically earlier due to biological reasons but men are at their physical peak around 25 in terms of explosiveness and speed. Of course that the case for trained athletes. Strength wise you peak even later than that, around 35-40.

If you think this is it for Luka, you are very wrong in my opinion. We will get an answer soon enough and know whats up by the end of the summer. I said this over a month ago, I will be able to project his ceiling much more accurately after he goes through the whole summer in the US. If he can not improve in this area, then he will be just an above average starter in the NBA. As simple as that.

Well, I am certain that strength improves with age, but bounce and stamina, I am not sure.

And I doubt Doncic will get into intense physical training once he steps in the NBA. Its not given. Look at Gasol brothers or Andrea Bargnani with their shirt off, they look like they never worked out in their life. It all depends on work ethic, and you dont have to be in the NBA to work on your body. So far I haven't seen enough of Doncic to be sure he will develop and transform his body. Gordon Hayward is a good example, but that guy is in great shape,

Exactly, its all about work ethic. I am sure Luka knows that he needs to be in better shape to be a great player. Gasols and Bargnani are different, they are bigs. Jokic is another example, the guy looks like he never did anything related to sports but is one of the best players in the league already. It is just different for big guys.

When Doncic had time to work on his body, his athleticism visibly improved and that was always when he came back from USA and P3. The last time he was there was in 2016. Since that time he really didnt have time to work on his body and now it shows and will have to catch up. He started the 16/17 season in September 2016, played until late June 2017, had few weeks off and started training camp with Slovenian NT on July 20th. I dont see where he could find the time to work on his body with high intensity. This summer he will have 3 full months to do that. As I said before, its all on him. If he doesnt transform his body, he can only blame himself.

[RookieStar]

Luka knows whats up. Just as my Magic team has fallen slightly off the top 3 draft pick, he made sure his stock also falls off so we will still be in range for him.

Seriously though, regarding athleticism.. it depends on the sport. In basketball, your athletic peak is probably 25-30 while being a marathoner, your peak is 35? ( I mean I do marathons and I can say i'm stronger and faster as a 29 year old compared to when I was 23 ). Gymnastic probably in your teens?

BTW, regarding to my question earlier, is there any indication or hindrance that would make a road block to Luka coming over after he was drafted? Like contract?promise?wife or gf?

[blazeyo]

Do you think that once Luka gets to the NBA he will not have intense physical training? Thats the first thing he will go through when he comes over and will be doing it every summer through his whole career. Physically peaking in your teens is just an idiotic idea. Your body isnt even fully developed yet in your teens. Its so stupid, I dont even want to debate it. If you ever did any sport in a serious capacity through your teens and 20s, you will find this idea laughable. It is true, women peak phisically earlier due to biological reasons but men are at their physical peak around 25 in terms of explosiveness and speed. Of course that the case for trained athletes. Strength wise you peak even later than that, around 35-40.

If you think this is it for Luka, you are very wrong in my opinion. We will get an answer soon enough and know whats up by the end of the summer. I said this over a month ago, I will be able to project his ceiling much more accurately after he goes through the whole summer in the US. If he can not improve in this area, then he will be just an above average starter in the NBA. As simple as that.

Well, I am certain that strength improves with age, but bounce and stamina, I am not sure.

And I doubt Doncic will get into intense physical training once he steps in the NBA. Its not given. Look at Gasol brothers or Andrea Bargnani with their shirt off, they look like they never worked out in their life. It all depends on work ethic, and you dont have to be in the NBA to work on your body. So far I haven't seen enough of Doncic to be sure he will develop and transform his body. Gordon Hayward is a good example, but that guy is in great shape,

It's such harder for European players to pack muscles and improve their all around athletic ability mainly because of their obligations towards their national tea in the off-season. Players improve their physique in the off-season and they just can't do that.

Other than that, I believe a lot of NBA players are on PEDs, and it's much harder for Europeans players to get access to it and almost impossible to be on them because of FIBA's much stricter drug testing..So they can't be on PEDs during the only time they are able to lift weights and work on their body.

[tria]

BTW, regarding to my question earlier, is there any indication or hindrance that would make a road block to Luka coming over after he was drafted? Like contract?promise?wife or gf?

Only barrier i think would he desire to first win euroleague with Real, team he spent his last 6 or 7 years playing for. His gf is Slovenian and as far as i remember her being mentioned in slovenian media during eurobasket is attending university in slovenia (and doing/or did some modelling work for slovenian underwear company). So based on that no problem with beeing apart i guess.
So far he did not say anything about declaring, just that he is thinking about Real right now. And probably media is probably "kindly asked" not to bother him during season with this topic.

[SportsGuy8]

Do you think that once Luka gets to the NBA he will not have intense physical training? Thats the first thing he will go through when he comes over and will be doing it every summer through his whole career. Physically peaking in your teens is just an idiotic idea. Your body isnt even fully developed yet in your teens. Its so stupid, I dont even want to debate it. If you ever did any sport in a serious capacity through your teens and 20s, you will find this idea laughable. It is true, women peak phisically earlier due to biological reasons but men are at their physical peak around 25 in terms of explosiveness and speed. Of course that the case for trained athletes. Strength wise you peak even later than that, around 35-40.

If you think this is it for Luka, you are very wrong in my opinion. We will get an answer soon enough and know whats up by the end of the summer. I said this over a month ago, I will be able to project his ceiling much more accurately after he goes through the whole summer in the US. If he can not improve in this area, then he will be just an above average starter in the NBA. As simple as that.

Well, I am certain that strength improves with age, but bounce and stamina, I am not sure.

And I doubt Doncic will get into intense physical training once he steps in the NBA. Its not given. Look at Gasol brothers or Andrea Bargnani with their shirt off, they look like they never worked out in their life. It all depends on work ethic, and you dont have to be in the NBA to work on your body. So far I haven't seen enough of Doncic to be sure he will develop and transform his body. Gordon Hayward is a good example, but that guy is in great shape,

It's such harder for European players to pack muscles and improve their all around athletic ability mainly because of their obligations towards their national tea in the off-season. Players improve their physique in the off-season and they just can't do that.

Other than that, I believe a lot of NBA players are on PEDs, and it's much harder for Europeans players to get access to it and almost impossible to be on them because of FIBA's much stricter drug testing..So they can't be on PEDs during the only time they are able to lift weights and work on their body.

Don't be naive, most of the world's top athletes use PEDs. If anyone has any doubts about that, just think about Lance Armstrong. He admittedly used PEDs for a decade, was tested more than a hundred times and (officially) DIDN'T FAIL 1 SINGLE TEST! He was only caught because he forced his teammates to use it also. You're only going to get caught if you either use cheap drugs (Eastern Europeans), or make a mistake!

Russians aren't the only ones who dope, they just did it on a state level, while athletes from richer nations do it on individual or club levels, or even with the help of doctors (asthma and other "illnesses").

European soccer teams have been using PEDs for a really long time, it's not just miraculous conditioning programs that make top players look like long-distance marathon runners nowadays. But they do mostly concentrate on conditioning, not so much on strength and athleticism.

Doncic definitely already has access to it, but is he already using it? Probably not, but you never know.

P.s.: Slovenians are no exception and I don't mean the ones that were already caught, even the ones that weren't. Do you think Tina Maze miraculously put up the most dominant season ever by eating "žgance & polento"? Or how Ilka Štuhec never finished in top 30 at the end of season, not a single podium or even close to it, and then one year miraculously started DOMINATING, like 7 wins? C'mon. She probably simply found Tina Maze's "secret diet".