Obi Toppin/Dayton Flyers

[Jamaaliver]

Jamaal, did you go to Dayton? You must be really excited for this season, the team looks great. Hope they beat Kansas today.

I'm pretty excited as well for this year as a DePaul guy. 7-0, our best start since 1986. Came back down 18 at the half last night to beat Central Michigan.

I live nearby and my wife is an alum.

That whole town is buzzing with excitement. College basketball is really big there (Dayton hosts the First Four tourney every year) and this is the best team the city had since sneaking into the Sweet Sixteen in 2014 -- and their best NBA prospect...ever?

OBI likely won't be a star player at the next level, but he seems a lock as a productive secondary player for years.

[Jamaaliver]

I really think the Obi Toppin kid out of Dayton is going to produce at the NBA level. Getting him outside the top-10 could be a huge boon for any team.

Obi Toppin (No. 10)

Toppin has helped himself as much as anyone this year, jumping from near the end of the first round into the lottery range. Simply put, I think you could pop him into an NBA game right now offensively, and he could help a team. [He's]...an athletic big man who can finish above the rim, that can space the floor, and [is] able to put the ball on the deck.

it’s hard to imagine a combo big man whose tape is more translatable to the NBA than Toppin’s. In part, it’s because of how Dayton utilizes him. But also, it’s a luxury he affords Dayton alone as the best inside-out offensive big in college basketball. He’s averaging 21.4 points while shooting an absurd 65.7 percent from the field. Part of the reason it’s so absurd is that he also takes three 3-pointers per game, knocking them down at a 41.7 percent clip. Essentially, Toppin is an unstoppable force.

I think the athleticism is the place to start, because it’s genuinely pretty different from most combo bigs...the dexterity and body control also allows him to put the ball on the deck without flying into opposing players. At 6-foot-9 and 230 pounds, Toppin morphs power, explosiveness and fluidity as well as any big in the country. His footwork in pick-and-rolls is pristine...

I think he has a real case as the No. 2 big man in this class behind Wiseman. Basically, Toppin’s scoring game at the college level is complete, and as you’ll see below, most of it comes in situations very replicable to what he’ll see in the NBA.

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[The-Power]

Am I the only one concerned about his poor defensive awareness and timing, and that the way he moves and makes plays looks very robotic and just not natural at all? I'm particularly concerned that on defense (and to a lesser extent on offense), it seems that he doesn't notice much that isn't immediately in his view. Leads to some pretty ugly defensive possessions where he is positioned to help but just doesn't rotate at all or way too late.

[King Ken]

called him a super sleeper in last year's draft if he declared, he's good, i think late 1st type, but he's definitely not as good as Clarke.

This time last year, Clarke was growing on me. By February, I had Clarke as a top 4 prospect. I think Toppin is easily better. He actually fits being a PF long term. I been watching his games and man, he has it all for a modern 4.

[clyde21]

called him a super sleeper in last year's draft if he declared, he's good, i think late 1st type, but he's definitely not as good as Clarke.

This time last year, Clarke was growing on me. By February, I had Clarke as a top 4 prospect. I think Toppin is easily better. He actually fits being a PF long term. I been watching his games and man, he has it all for a modern 4.

'easily better than Clarke' is quite hyperbolic

[King Ken]

called him a super sleeper in last year's draft if he declared, he's good, i think late 1st type, but he's definitely not as good as Clarke.

This time last year, Clarke was growing on me. By February, I had Clarke as a top 4 prospect. I think Toppin is easily better. He actually fits being a PF long term. I been watching his games and man, he has it all for a modern 4.

'easily better than Clarke' is quite hyperbolic

I would agree if you are talking about college production. No one other than Zion been that productive in the last 15 years. I am speaking in terms of NBA prospectus.

I always believed Clarke's best position in the NBA long term is at the 3. It will take him 2-3 years to adjust to that position. Maybe sooner. Toppin is a college 4 and NBA 4. No need to wait for anything.

[clyde21]

This time last year, Clarke was growing on me. By February, I had Clarke as a top 4 prospect. I think Toppin is easily better. He actually fits being a PF long term. I been watching his games and man, he has it all for a modern 4.

'easily better than Clarke' is quite hyperbolic

I would agree if you are talking about college production. No one other than Zion been that productive in the last 15 years. I am speaking in terms of NBA prospectus.

I always believed Clarke's best position in the NBA long term is at the 3. It will take him 2-3 years to adjust to that position. Maybe sooner. Toppin is a college 4 and NBA 4. No need to wait for anything.

i know, i'm talking about prospectus, Clarke is a combo big in the Draymond mold not a 3 IMO, he's also a much, much better defender than Obi, much better athlete, and even if you think Obi is a better offensive player...Clarke right now in the NBA is shooting 65% from the field, 45% from 3 with a whopping 70 TS%, so I'm not sure I'm seeing that much of a variance there to say Obi > Clarke at this point

[King Ken]

'easily better than Clarke' is quite hyperbolic

I would agree if you are talking about college production. No one other than Zion been that productive in the last 15 years. I am speaking in terms of NBA prospectus.

I always believed Clarke's best position in the NBA long term is at the 3. It will take him 2-3 years to adjust to that position. Maybe sooner. Toppin is a college 4 and NBA 4. No need to wait for anything.

i know, i'm talking about prospectus, Clarke is a combo big in the Draymond mold not a 3 IMO, he's also a much, much better defender than Obi, much better athlete, and even if you think Obi is a better offensive player...Clarke right now in the NBA is shooting 65% from the field, 45% from 3 with a whopping 70 TS%, so I'm not sure I'm seeing that much of a variance there to say Obi > Clarke at this point

Clarke ain't in no damn mold of Green. Too small and has no bulk. That's why he's purely situational for Memphis right now. Taylor Jenkins coached Clarke's prototype before in DeMarre Carroll. So he knows how to develop Clarke as he developed Carroll. The difference is, Clarke has some Shawn Marion in him as well so he might have an All NBA player with Clarke.

Clarke is a much better defender in college. In the NBA, he is too small, lacks bulk and it shows in the data of this season. Most of his defensive metrics have tremendously gone down as many I've spoke to in the league circles expected. He's too small to be a 4. He's the same damn size as Klay Thompson. You can't guard the 4 at that size, bulk, and length. Toppin is a switchable defender at 220-230. That's his defensive value. While Clarke has that and some, Toppin offers that plus exceptional offensive value. That's a massive difference to NBA teams and scouts.

LOL, Draymond Green. Stop it! Green is 240-250 with tremendous strength and bulk with a backside. One of the greatest big man defenders we have had that played this game. You can't be serious. I hope you aren't.

I don't think Clarke is a better athlete. More explosive, sure, Clarke is a top 99 percentile guy in that arena. Toppin is faster, quicker, longer, and bigger. His athleticism is more effective.

Clarke is shooting 2 3s per36 a game. That's NBA center level and not even one of solid volume. That doesn't mean ****. It's irrelevant. His TS is impressive as it was in college. 69.9 TS in college and 69.1 in the NBA but he is a finisher. That's what he does and is expected to do.

I am 100% certain that every NBA guy I speak with will always say unanimously that Toppin is clearly a better prospect than Clarke as a big but I can always count on RealGM to be contrary.

[MemphisX]

I am sure no NBA guys will say Toppin is CLEARLY a better prospect.

[Ruzious]

I am sure no NBA guys will say Toppin is CLEARLY a better prospect.

Yeah, there's no getting around the fact that Clarke's rookie stats are tremendous. The one thing I think that's going to keep him from being a star is his perceived durability. I'm guessing he never tops 25 minutes a game because his teams will be concerned that at his size, he can't handle more minutes.

[No-Man]

Toppin is a better shooter than Clarke and has a better frame/length/bulk combo, other than that... Clarke is way better elsewhere, about even as passers (Toppin can pass but only if the pass is there, not a creator)

[hcsilla]

Toppin's versatility reminds me of Pascal Siakam.

[clyde21]

Toppin went from being one of the more underrated guys last year to one of the more overrated guys this year

[Marcus]

Toppin went from being one of the more underrated guys last year to one of the more overrated guys this year

i'd blame the top of the class this year.

[King Ken]

Toppin went from being one of the more underrated guys last year to one of the more overrated guys this year

i'd blame the top of the class this year.

Why not blame his improvement?

[Marcus]

Toppin went from being one of the more underrated guys last year to one of the more overrated guys this year

i'd blame the top of the class this year.

Why not blame his improvement?

i'm not gonna fault a kid for working hard enough to improve his draft stock and have folks recognize him for it, that wouldn't make sense.

My statement is IRT to amount of time and attention being placed on him and his NBA translation. This kind of debate would fly under the radar if the talent near the top was enough to keep folks attention occupied.

Do you see Toppin as a franchise talent? Did you see Clarke as one?

[King Ken]

i'd blame the top of the class this year.

Why not blame his improvement?

i'm not gonna fault a kid for working hard enough to improve his draft stock and have folks recognize him for it, that wouldn't make sense.

My statement is IRT to amount of time and attention being placed on him and his NBA translation. This kind of debate would fly under the radar if the talent near the top was enough to keep folks attention occupied.

Do you see Toppin as a franchise talent? Did you see Clarke as one?

I see Clarke as one more than Toppin but Toppin doesn't have to go to the right system or coach to be developed right. Toppin can play in any system. He is easy to plug in as a 4. Clarke potential is at the 3 in time. That's where he will be special long term.

Toppin is the best plug and play guy in this draft. Most of these other guys will need player development and luck. Anyone can use Toppin.

[Marcus]

Why not blame his improvement?

i'm not gonna fault a kid for working hard enough to improve his draft stock and have folks recognize him for it, that wouldn't make sense.

My statement is IRT to amount of time and attention being placed on him and his NBA translation. This kind of debate would fly under the radar if the talent near the top was enough to keep folks attention occupied.

Do you see Toppin as a franchise talent? Did you see Clarke as one?

I see Clarke as one more than Toppin but Toppin doesn't have to go to the right system or coach to be developed right. Toppin can play in any system. He is easy to plug in as a 4. Clarke potential is at the 3 in time. That's where he will be special long term.

Toppin is the best plug and play guy in this draft. Most of these other guys will need player development and luck. Anyone can use Toppin.

right, and that kind of prospect usually doesn't garner much back and forth unless there are no other prospects to speak on. That's all i meant with my statement. nothing directed towards the kid's progression.

[King Ken]

i'm not gonna fault a kid for working hard enough to improve his draft stock and have folks recognize him for it, that wouldn't make sense.

My statement is IRT to amount of time and attention being placed on him and his NBA translation. This kind of debate would fly under the radar if the talent near the top was enough to keep folks attention occupied.

Do you see Toppin as a franchise talent? Did you see Clarke as one?

I see Clarke as one more than Toppin but Toppin doesn't have to go to the right system or coach to be developed right. Toppin can play in any system. He is easy to plug in as a 4. Clarke potential is at the 3 in time. That's where he will be special long term.

Toppin is the best plug and play guy in this draft. Most of these other guys will need player development and luck. Anyone can use Toppin.

right, and that kind of prospect usually doesn't garner much back and forth unless there are no other prospects to speak on. That's all i meant with my statement. nothing directed towards the kid's progression.

If the kid is a better Kenyon Martin as a pro, that's good enough for #1 for me in this draft. Edwards is about 2 years away as is Ball and that's if they land in good situations with the right systems. Cole Anthony is the only one who is Day 1 and his potential isn't as high as it once appeared. Why not draft a sure thing?

[Marcus]

I see Clarke as one more than Toppin but Toppin doesn't have to go to the right system or coach to be developed right. Toppin can play in any system. He is easy to plug in as a 4. Clarke potential is at the 3 in time. That's where he will be special long term.

Toppin is the best plug and play guy in this draft. Most of these other guys will need player development and luck. Anyone can use Toppin.

right, and that kind of prospect usually doesn't garner much back and forth unless there are no other prospects to speak on. That's all i meant with my statement. nothing directed towards the kid's progression.

If the kid is a better Kenyon Martin as a pro, that's good enough for #1 for me in this draft. Edwards is about 2 years away as is Ball and that's if they land in good situations with the right systems. Cole Anthony is the only one who is Day 1 and his potential isn't as high as it once appeared. Why not draft a sure thing?

if that's what a team wants to do then by all means. If there's any chance for him to go high this would be the year.