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Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft

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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#201 » by ManualRam » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:02 pm

im not as down on barnes as some of you. i think he looked good, not great last night. i also dont have as much of a problem with his shot selection. he does take some shots with a hand in his face, but he's not being a ball-stopper. at this stage, there arent too many 6'8 SF's with his length and strength. he should be looking for his shot even more because not many can contest his high release shot.

i still maintain that he'll be a better version of luol deng...or a similar type of player, but to me that's still a good thing and should be enough for him to remain in the top 5. i'd most definitely take him over either of the jones', mcadoo, rivers, and maybe even sullinger. he's a low maintenance player, who's intelligent and can contribute on both ends of the floor. what i think will make him better than deng is his ability to get his own shot. he really does have great footwork and balance. if he gets the jab step game down he'll easily be able to use his strength and high release to get his shot off on defenders. he wont ever be an explosive, first step player, but he can make up with that by becoming a pure shooter. that'll make his first step appear better than it is because team's will have to close out hard on him. his shot is so smooth and so pure with terrific balance that i think he could become that. maybe similar to glen rice on offense.

i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#202 » by ManualRam » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:06 pm

DetroitPistons wrote:
CKRT wrote:River's shooting form is awful. Did anyone else notice that tonight?


I noticed it the first time i saw him. hes supposed to be a good shooter though.


didnt watch the game, but i know that his form is awful. half the time he's off balance and his release point changes.
if you look at his shot frame by frame, you'd also notice that it's a bit of a 2 handed shot. just watch how much left thumb he uses on the ball. his form alone is what will prevent him from ever becoming a pure shooter and that's without factoring in his shot selection.
he did make 2 3's last night, but one was pure luck off the glass from about 25 feet.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#203 » by jman3134 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:18 pm

Rivers has good change of pace and dribble drive instincts, but I'm not sure that he has the vision to really create for his teammates just yet. His shot did look a bit off in terms of form.

As for my top five, I am keeping Michael Gilchrist, Anthony Davis, and Andre Drummond as three guarantees for my top 5 with Jared Sullinger being close to a guarantee. The last spot is up for grabs in my estimation. Perry Jones, Quincy Miller, Thomas Robinson, Jeremy Lamb, Bradley Beal, Harrison Barnes, Myck Kabongo, and John Henson are all in the running.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#204 » by jman3134 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:24 pm

Barnes is a fairly intelligent player, but he is limited by his lack of a superior first step and extra gear imo. He is a decent run jump athlete, but he does not play well at a fast pace. That is why he has struggled at UNC thus far. In terms of basketball IQ, I think that he has it and that is why he is going to seem improved at this level. But still, I think everyone must remember that UNC's style of play does not cater to his strengths.

With that said, I don't like him as a prospect personally because I do not see much of a killer instinct. I see a good player, but not a game changing presence. Still, he is a hard worker and could develop into one of the more skilled NBA players on work ethic alone. We will see.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#205 » by Ruzious » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:47 pm

ManualRam wrote:i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.

Maybe eventually, he'll develop those 1 on 1 skills, but he has not shown them at all at the college level. He's looked very awkward when trying to take anyone off the dribble. But he's an outstanding jump shooter with an excellent package of size and athleticism and plays terrific defense. With a quality passing PG, he'll be an excellent pro. Without one, he'll be mediocre.

The 2 Lambs... wow - particularly UConn's Jeremy. Move him to the top 5. What a phenom. UConn's backcourt is better - now that their star is gone - no offense to Walker, but now that he's gone, Lamb and Napier can play their games. This is going to be the best year of college basketball in years - with several dominant teams.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#206 » by ManualRam » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:52 pm

Ruzious wrote:
ManualRam wrote:i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.

Maybe eventually, he'll develop those 1 on 1 skills, but he has not shown them at all at the college level. He's looked very awkward when trying to take anyone off the dribble. But he's an outstanding jump shooter with an excellent package of size and athleticism and plays terrific defense. With a quality passing PG, he'll be an excellent pro. Without one, he'll be mediocre.

The 2 Lambs... wow - particularly UConn's Jeremy. Move him to the top 5. What a phenom. UConn's backcourt is better - now that their star is gone - no offense to Walker, but now that he's gone, Lamb and Napier can play their games. This is going to be the best year of college basketball in years - with several dominant teams.



you dont have to be a great ball-handler to score in 1 on 1 situations. the step back jumper is already in his arsenal and he can get that shot off with great balance. other than that, he's show an ability to face up and score off the triple threat because of his high release. if he perfects the jab step/ triple threat game, it'll make his first step better.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#207 » by vincecarter4pres » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:01 pm

ManualRam wrote:im not as down on barnes as some of you.

Personally I don't think I'm down on him at all, just realistic and was never as high on him as others.

i think he looked good, not great last night. i also dont have as much of a problem with his shot selection. he does take some shots with a hand in his face, but he's not being a ball-stopper.

Agree with this for the most part.

I wasn't saying he's a ball stopping chucker, just that he's taken some WTF shots a lot and consistently at that.

You can coach that out of him and just experience alone should eventually teach himself not to do that seeing he seems a rather intelligent player and person.

But you also have to think it's taking him these forces just to get his current(back to the second half of last year on) numbers, so if he trims the fat won't he be even more invisible if more efficient and better suited to the NBA. Maybe invisible is the wrong word, more so blended in and seemless, but not standing out.

at this stage, there arent too many 6'8 SF's with his length and strength. he should be looking for his shot even more because not many can contest his high release shot.

Yup.

i still maintain that he'll be a better version of luol deng...or a similar type of player, but to me that's still a good thing and should be enough for him to remain in the top 5.

That's an interesting comparison and one that once you mention it seems like a doh moment where we all should have thought about it.

I also think a current J Rich(last few years) is decent comparison with better defense, but both yours and this one as his peak, not his definite.

That's the thing, although he maybe more likely to hit his peak, I don't see any actual further upside then that and that ceiling is still far from guaranteed.

I guess you can say sure, that's worth a top 5 pick, but depending on the one and done rule it's still a reach to put him that high for the most part with some of the other talent and having him #1 through #3 over Lamb, Davis and Sullinger specifically seems silly to me.

i'd most definitely take him over either of the jones', mcadoo, rivers, and maybe even sullinger. he's a low maintenance player, who's intelligent and can contribute on both ends of the floor. what i think will make him better than deng is his ability to get his own shot. he really does have great footwork and balance. if he gets the jab step game down he'll easily be able to use his strength and high release to get his shot off on defenders. he wont ever be an explosive, first step player, but he can make up with that by becoming a pure shooter. that'll make his first step appear better than it is because team's will have to close out hard on him. his shot is so smooth and so pure with terrific balance that i think he could become that. maybe similar to glen rice on offense.

This is a very fair and spot on scouting report and thoughts for his NBA development until you hit Glen RIce.

Rice might be a tad overrated but I never see Barnes being that type of first option, incredible 2nd option like Rice was.

i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.

Fair points, but Barnes somewhat struggles some to do all the things you mention against college defenders so even if you think his game develops his actual limitations physically aren't going to lend favorably to me at the next level.

With all the superstar , legit star and semi-star small forwards in the NBA, of which almost all are 28 or younger, I just don't see how he becomes a standout or even must have role player at the next level ever in his career. And that's not accounting for young kids that come out of college and Europe the next few years...
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#208 » by LoneyROY7 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:24 pm

vincecarter4pres wrote:
UGA Hayes wrote:Wwll its too eary...but...I can't help but share VC4P pessimism on Barnes. He looked like the same player as last year. Same handle that doesn't get him by people, same questionable shot selection, same trouble getting to the rim. He just doesn't jump out as me as anything other than a solid role player at th next level. The #1 pick talk continues to baffle me. I feel like the tail is wagging the dog on this one.

The way I feel about Barnes and have felt is 16ppg Shane Battier.

Maybe he'll have a couple seasons hovering around 20ppg on lower percentages and efficiency while he's on bad team and he's forced to jack up a lot of bad shots.

Maybe he'll have a couple around 20ppg instead as a high efficiency low usage 3rd, even 4th option on a super fast paced offense like an old Phoenix or Golden State.

But I'm just not seeing anything that says star to me, not even really an All Star or really even fringe All Star, at least not a perennial one.

16ppg Shane Battier would be a wonderful player to have. One that would be highly desirable and coveted league wide. But not with a top 5 pick, or at least DEFINITELY not a top 3 pick even if the 20 year rule comes into effect.

Right outside the top 5 sounds about right for him though, in that 6 to 10 range.


A 16 ppg Shane Battier would be PERFECT for the Clippers. I'll absolutely take that top 3, when you already have two stars who can put it in the basket.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#209 » by Steely Reserve » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:30 pm

Outside shooting, how does Barnes consistently impact the game??

This something every GM should ask when drafting in the top 5. When it comes to Barnes, I'm not seeing the ability or the upside to impact the game outside putting the ball in the hoop. IMO, even his rebounding is poor and I'm not all that sold on his defense being elite considering the lack of NBA ready small forwards at the college level.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#210 » by theboomking » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:35 pm

Ruzious wrote:
ManualRam wrote:i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.

Maybe eventually, he'll develop those 1 on 1 skills, but he has not shown them at all at the college level. He's looked very awkward when trying to take anyone off the dribble. But he's an outstanding jump shooter with an excellent package of size and athleticism and plays terrific defense. With a quality passing PG, he'll be an excellent pro. Without one, he'll be mediocre.

The 2 Lambs... wow - particularly UConn's Jeremy. Move him to the top 5. What a phenom. UConn's backcourt is better - now that their star is gone - no offense to Walker, but now that he's gone, Lamb and Napier can play their games. This is going to be the best year of college basketball in years - with several dominant teams.


I half agree with you. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are equating 1 on 1 skills with driving to the basket. Barnes has a very mature set of one on one skills that he uses to get his shot.

Jeremy Lamb...wow. A lot of us expected him to look really good and potentially become a top 5 pick, but he still looked impressive. Lamb looks like he could be a top 2 SG in the league in the next 5 years.

I know we don't particularly have the ammo to move up and grab a second lotto pick, but I love the idea of pairing Wall with Jeremy Lamb and Harrison Barnes.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#211 » by ManualRam » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:01 am

vc4p

the reason why i brought up glen rice was that he wasnt a guy who was great off the dribble. he didnt have a great first step, nor did he have advanced ball-handling moves. what he had was a high release that was tough to contest, the ability to spot up, come off curls, face up and shoot over defenders as well as the occasional quick turnaround from the post.
you dont have to be amazing on the ball to be a good scorer in the NBA. i just think with barnes' form, high release, balance and work ethic, he can become a pure shooter which would make up for his lack of advanced ball-skills and explosive first step. the NBA needs more off the ball scorers anyways.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#212 » by vincecarter4pres » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:10 am

ManualRam wrote:vc4p

the reason why i brought up glen rice was that he wasnt a guy who was great off the dribble. he didnt have a great first step, nor did he have advanced ball-handling moves. what he had was a high release that was tough to contest, the ability to spot up, come off curls, face up and shoot over defenders as well as the occasional quick turnaround from the post.
you dont have to be amazing on the ball to be a good scorer in the NBA. i just think with barnes' form, high release, balance and work ethic, he can become a pure shooter which would make up for his lack of advanced ball-skills and explosive first step. the NBA needs more off the ball scorers anyways.

Yeah this is very true.

Peja is another good example as a more recent one, although Peja was a rather awful defender.

In hindsight, I think you're spot on with his ceiling and more or less his style and skill set, when I say 16ppg Shane Battier that's what I feel his actual case scenario will ultimately be though.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and watch him this year with as little bias as possible though, maybe he'll look much improved, maybe I'll change my view some.

I'll say it like this as a complete hypothetical:

If there's a full season lockout and my team the Nets happen to get say the 3rd pick, if we take Barnes over Lamb I would be absolutely livid, but if we took Barnes over Rivers, Miller, Beal, etc., whoever of the other wings is the other top prospect I'll likely be fine with it.

On Rivers in general, as of now he has a number of glaring flaws and I'm not particularly in love with him, I just feel he's the better actual prospect with the much higher ceiling right now.

Same with Quincy Miller.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#213 » by Ruzious » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:22 am

theboomking wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
ManualRam wrote:i dont really see the shane battier comparison because barnes can get his shot off in more situations. because of battier's release, he never had a mid-range game or the ability to turn and shoot in someone's face with little daylight, take pull up or step back jumpers. all shane could really do was shoot 3's and post a little bit. barnes has the moves, he has the length and the high release to get his shot in 1 on 1 situations.

Maybe eventually, he'll develop those 1 on 1 skills, but he has not shown them at all at the college level. He's looked very awkward when trying to take anyone off the dribble. But he's an outstanding jump shooter with an excellent package of size and athleticism and plays terrific defense. With a quality passing PG, he'll be an excellent pro. Without one, he'll be mediocre.

The 2 Lambs... wow - particularly UConn's Jeremy. Move him to the top 5. What a phenom. UConn's backcourt is better - now that their star is gone - no offense to Walker, but now that he's gone, Lamb and Napier can play their games. This is going to be the best year of college basketball in years - with several dominant teams.


I half agree with you. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are equating 1 on 1 skills with driving to the basket. Barnes has a very mature set of one on one skills that he uses to get his shot.

Jeremy Lamb...wow. A lot of us expected him to look really good and potentially become a top 5 pick, but he still looked impressive. Lamb looks like he could be a top 2 SG in the league in the next 5 years.

I know we don't particularly have the ammo to move up and grab a second lotto pick, but I love the idea of pairing Wall with Jeremy Lamb and Harrison Barnes.

At the NBA level, can you think of any players who can't drive and are particularly good 1 on 1 players?

See, even at the college level, this is why Barnes was completely ineffective in halfcourt offense with Drew as his point guard. And halfcourt offense became a strength when he had a real point guard.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#214 » by ManualRam » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Ruzious wrote:
theboomking wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Maybe eventually, he'll develop those 1 on 1 skills, but he has not shown them at all at the college level. He's looked very awkward when trying to take anyone off the dribble. But he's an outstanding jump shooter with an excellent package of size and athleticism and plays terrific defense. With a quality passing PG, he'll be an excellent pro. Without one, he'll be mediocre.

The 2 Lambs... wow - particularly UConn's Jeremy. Move him to the top 5. What a phenom. UConn's backcourt is better - now that their star is gone - no offense to Walker, but now that he's gone, Lamb and Napier can play their games. This is going to be the best year of college basketball in years - with several dominant teams.


I half agree with you. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are equating 1 on 1 skills with driving to the basket. Barnes has a very mature set of one on one skills that he uses to get his shot.

Jeremy Lamb...wow. A lot of us expected him to look really good and potentially become a top 5 pick, but he still looked impressive. Lamb looks like he could be a top 2 SG in the league in the next 5 years.

I know we don't particularly have the ammo to move up and grab a second lotto pick, but I love the idea of pairing Wall with Jeremy Lamb and Harrison Barnes.

At the NBA level, can you think of any players who can't drive and are particularly good 1 on 1 players?



there are plenty throughout the history of the NBA. i named one at the top of this page. i think we've been too accustomed to (or spoiled by) the dribble drive game and thinking that's the best way to score for a perimeter player. sure, it obviously helps but it's not the only way a perimeter player can score.
KD was scoring 20+ points a game without a great handle or slashing ability. he's able to lead the league in scoring with 87% of his shots being jumpshots.
larry bird was a pretty decent 1 on 1 player and it wasnt because he had elite ball-handling ability or had an elite first step. he was an amazing shooter who knew how to create just enough space to get off his unblockable jumper.
paul pierce is another guy who only had a functional handle, enough to get to spots on the floor with only the occasional spin move or cross. he wasnt blessed with great explosiveness either, but what he has is great body strength, length, the knack for creating space and a release that's tough to contest.
obviously, i dont think barnes will ever be as good as the aforementioned players. im just giving examples of players being able to score 1 on 1 without being dynamic ball-handlers, slashers and not having great first steps.

if you wanna look at a more comparable, contemporary example, granger's a 20+ ppg SF who's not known for his ball-handling or driving ability. like him or not, michael beasley (who BTW is basically the same exact size as harrison barnes) was able to score nearly 20 ppg, mainly because of his ability to score from the triple threat (and chucking, but that's besides the point). the key is being a great shooter, able to get your shot off in different situations, knowing the nuances of scoring from the triple threat as well as having the size and length to shoot over defenders. i think barnes has the capability of being a very good shooter. he already has very good size, strength and length for an NBA SF which would help him get his shot off at the next level.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#215 » by UGA Hayes » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:50 pm

Two things. A lot of the guys on your first list can post, so they have an adequate way of covering up a poor handle. We haven't seen a postup game from Barnes.

Secondly I think a lot of people would argue that Granger is a fairly overrated player.

In general I think Barnes is paradoxically being raised as a prospect in many's eyes b/c he execute somewhat complex moves, despite the fact that those moves lead to pretty low percentage shots.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#216 » by vincecarter4pres » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:44 pm

I don't think Granger is overrated, but I also see almost zero Granger in Barnes.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#217 » by ManualRam » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:22 pm

UGA Hayes wrote:Two things. A lot of the guys on your first list can post, so they have an adequate way of covering up a poor handle. We haven't seen a postup game from Barnes.

Secondly I think a lot of people would argue that Granger is a fairly overrated player.

In general I think Barnes is paradoxically being raised as a prospect in many's eyes b/c he execute somewhat complex moves, despite the fact that those moves lead to pretty low percentage shots.



barnes can post up. in fact he did a lot of that in HS before and after he transitioned to being a full time perimeter player. people keep forgetting that barnes started out as a post player, and a skilled one at that. that's where he developed his footwork which is one of his strengths.

a post up wing in the college game is a rarity. again, because of spacing and because of the offensive capabilities (rather, in-capabilities) of college bigs. usually if a perimeter player comes to the NBA with the ability to post, its likely because they played PF in college (granger, tayshaun, wilson chandler, beas, jamison, j.green).

he wont be able to utilize it during his college career, only sporadically, but he does have the foundation for one at the next level (strength, length, high release, footwork and patience). not a consistent post game like most wings in the current NBA not named kobe, but enough for it to be a part of his arsenal.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#218 » by 7-Day Dray » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:20 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:I don't think Granger is overrated, but I also see almost zero Granger in Barnes.


I disagree. Barnes to me is a cross between Luol Deng & Danny Granger.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#219 » by BigBaller » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:06 am

7-Day Dray wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:I don't think Granger is overrated, but I also see almost zero Granger in Barnes.


I disagree. Barnes to me is a cross between Luol Deng & Danny Granger.

Harrison Barnes reminds me of Marvin Williams.
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Re: Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft 

Post#220 » by mid-post » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:04 am

BigBaller wrote:Harrison Barnes reminds me of Marvin Williams.

uh oh.

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