Top 5 Prospects for 2012 NBA Draft

[BigBaller]

Harrison Barnes reminds me of Marvin Williams.

uh oh.

Yeah, I went there.

[ManualRam]

i dont see the marvin williams comparison at all. for marvin, the only offensive skill that translated from HS to the college game and beyond was his ability to catch and shoot. he's another example of a player who cant get his jump shot off in a number of situations because of his form, just like battier.

i will say one negative thing about barnes though. he really needs to work on his passing. he's definitely not a selfish guy. he knows where the ball is supposed to go and he'll move the ball, but its the actual delivery of the ball that needs work. he had 6 TOs today and at least 3 of em were passes that were just off the mark.

[Kaner]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LFVT38n-7E[/youtube]

He definitely showcased that he can score in a variety of ways tonight, definitely see a rich man's pre-injury Luol Deng...which is a very very good player, people seem upset he doesn't have the floor game that some of the other elite wings do, but he just seems like such a smart player...always aware of his deficiencies and willing to work to improve them...will he ever develop an elite first step? Probably not, but like Ram mentioned teams are going to have to play him close because he has such a pure jumper... in my opinion, his form already looks better than 90% of NBA small forwards.

[vincecarter4pres]

You don't really "develop" an elite first step.

[Cammo101]

For a guy who everything thinks only has a chance as a spot up shooter, Barnes is good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls. I don't think Barnes will become some Kevin Durant type juggernaut, but to me he is plenty good enough of a shooter and ball handler to be a very good NBA player. I see him as a combination of Luol Deng and Glenn Robinson.

[ManualRam]

For a guy who everything thinks only has a chance as a spot up shooter, Barnes is good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls. I don't think Barnes will become some Kevin Durant type juggernaut, but to me he is plenty good enough of a shooter and ball handler to be a very good NBA player. I see him as a combination of Luol Deng and Glenn Robinson.

i wouldnt say he's good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls yet, but he's obviously making more of a conscious effort to do so.

[Cammo101]

For a guy who everything thinks only has a chance as a spot up shooter, Barnes is good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls. I don't think Barnes will become some Kevin Durant type juggernaut, but to me he is plenty good enough of a shooter and ball handler to be a very good NBA player. I see him as a combination of Luol Deng and Glenn Robinson.

i wouldnt say he's good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls yet, but he's obviously making more of a conscious effort to do so.

I think you will see a night and day difference in his ball handling this year. He supposedly worked like crazy all off-season on it, including a trip to the Steve Nash Point Guard Camp.

[ManualRam]

For a guy who everything thinks only has a chance as a spot up shooter, Barnes is good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls. I don't think Barnes will become some Kevin Durant type juggernaut, but to me he is plenty good enough of a shooter and ball handler to be a very good NBA player. I see him as a combination of Luol Deng and Glenn Robinson.

i wouldnt say he's good at getting in the lane and drawing fouls yet, but he's obviously making more of a conscious effort to do so.

I think you will see a night and day difference in his ball handling this year. He supposedly worked like crazy all off-season on it, including a trip to the Steve Nash Point Guard Camp.

it's improved, but it's not night and day.
he's trying the moves that he learned but they still look a bit awkward and deliberate. see the inside out dribble he pulls off in the video last page.
what's more important is that mixes up his game, utilizing the threat of his shot to get a step on his defender.

[Kaner]

You don't really "develop" an elite first step.

I know from a physically explosive standpoint, you really can't, you're right. But you can tell even in that short clip i posted he is learning how to use a collapsing defender to give him an extra advantage on using his first step to get by his man. As he perfects that art, his first step will appear better and better, and if they sag off of him, he just shoots over them.

[fishnc]

His jumpshot already earns him a lot of respect from his defender. In his first 2 games this year I've noticed how often he has been able to get his defender into the air or off balance with his shot fake. This is allowing him to get to his spots effectively regardless of his first step, because if they don't play him close he can shoot over them. The Tar Heel spacing has been pretty horrendous so far(unless Zeller is drawing triple teams like today )...once Bullock and Hairston start knocking down some open jumpers their half court sets won't look nearly as crowded and hopefully Harrison will get a chance to show off some of his new moves.

EDIT: Was responding to a post on the previous page and am now seeing that I basically echoed the thoughts of the posters above me. +2

[fishnc]

i dont see the marvin williams comparison at all. for marvin, the only offensive skill that translated from HS to the college game and beyond was his ability to catch and shoot. he's another example of a player who cant get his jump shot off in a number of situations because of his form, just like battier.

i will say one negative thing about barnes though. he really needs to work on his passing. he's definitely not a selfish guy. he knows where the ball is supposed to go and he'll move the ball, but its the actual delivery of the ball that needs work. he had 6 TOs today and at least 3 of em were passes that were just off the mark.

Agreed. I was so pissed when he whipped that one handed bounce pass at 6'10" McAdoo's feet on a 3 on 1 fast break.

[Ruzious]

I half agree with you. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are equating 1 on 1 skills with driving to the basket. Barnes has a very mature set of one on one skills that he uses to get his shot.

Jeremy Lamb...wow. A lot of us expected him to look really good and potentially become a top 5 pick, but he still looked impressive. Lamb looks like he could be a top 2 SG in the league in the next 5 years.

I know we don't particularly have the ammo to move up and grab a second lotto pick, but I love the idea of pairing Wall with Jeremy Lamb and Harrison Barnes.

At the NBA level, can you think of any players who can't drive and are particularly good 1 on 1 players?

there are plenty throughout the history of the NBA. i named one at the top of this page. i think we've been too accustomed to (or spoiled by) the dribble drive game and thinking that's the best way to score for a perimeter player. sure, it obviously helps but it's not the only way a perimeter player can score.
KD was scoring 20+ points a game without a great handle or slashing ability. he's able to lead the league in scoring with 87% of his shots being jumpshots.
larry bird was a pretty decent 1 on 1 player and it wasnt because he had elite ball-handling ability or had an elite first step. he was an amazing shooter who knew how to create just enough space to get off his unblockable jumper.
paul pierce is another guy who only had a functional handle, enough to get to spots on the floor with only the occasional spin move or cross. he wasnt blessed with great explosiveness either, but what he has is great body strength, length, the knack for creating space and a release that's tough to contest.
obviously, i dont think barnes will ever be as good as the aforementioned players. im just giving examples of players being able to score 1 on 1 without being dynamic ball-handlers, slashers and not having great first steps.

if you wanna look at a more comparable, contemporary example, granger's a 20+ ppg SF who's not known for his ball-handling or driving ability. like him or not, michael beasley (who BTW is basically the same exact size as harrison barnes) was able to score nearly 20 ppg, mainly because of his ability to score from the triple threat (and chucking, but that's besides the point). the key is being a great shooter, able to get your shot off in different situations, knowing the nuances of scoring from the triple threat as well as having the size and length to shoot over defenders. i think barnes has the capability of being a very good shooter. he already has very good size, strength and length for an NBA SF which would help him get his shot off at the next level.

I think your argument dies simply because all of those guys you mentioned that actually were good 1 on 1 players showed the clear ability to take his man off the dribble. Now, wll Barnes improve in that area with hard work and more experience? Perhaps.

[ManualRam]

take guys off the dribble via what? advanced ball-handling skills (maybe pierce to a certain degree. but he's more of a clever, strong, triple threat guy who knows how to use his body) or explosive first step?
no. via the threat of the shot and knowing how to play out of the triple threat.

i think you guys are overselling his inability to put the ball on the floor. he's not just some stiff, station to station spot up shooter. he's improved his handle and is obviously making a concerted effort to put the ball on the floor, not settling for jumpers. will he ever be a player who'll dance with the ball and take his man off the bounce in that manner? no, probably never. there's too many of those type of players anyways, but i think he will be able to put the ball on the deck in at least the same manner that guys like deng, beasley and granger do.

[SWedd523]

i dont see the marvin williams comparison at all. for marvin, the only offensive skill that translated from HS to the college game and beyond was his ability to catch and shoot. he's another example of a player who cant get his jump shot off in a number of situations because of his form, just like battier.

i will say one negative thing about barnes though. he really needs to work on his passing. he's definitely not a selfish guy. he knows where the ball is supposed to go and he'll move the ball, but its the actual delivery of the ball that needs work. he had 6 TOs today and at least 3 of em were passes that were just off the mark.

Agreed. I was so pissed when he whipped that one handed bounce pass at 6'10" McAdoo's feet on a 3 on 1 fast break.

Two of his turnovers went of Henson's hands and another (the bounce pass) went off McAdoo's hands. It's not his fault his teammates couldn't hold onto the ball.

If anything, it seems like his teammates expect him to shoot when he gets the ball and they move to a position where they aren't expecting the pass. As for McAdoo's, if dude wants to be a wing, he needs to catch that ball on the break.

[ManualRam]

i dont see the marvin williams comparison at all. for marvin, the only offensive skill that translated from HS to the college game and beyond was his ability to catch and shoot. he's another example of a player who cant get his jump shot off in a number of situations because of his form, just like battier.

i will say one negative thing about barnes though. he really needs to work on his passing. he's definitely not a selfish guy. he knows where the ball is supposed to go and he'll move the ball, but its the actual delivery of the ball that needs work. he had 6 TOs today and at least 3 of em were passes that were just off the mark.

Agreed. I was so pissed when he whipped that one handed bounce pass at 6'10" McAdoo's feet on a 3 on 1 fast break.

Two of his turnovers went of Henson's hands and another (the bounce pass) went off McAdoo's hands. It's not his fault his teammates couldn't hold onto the ball.

If anything, it seems like his teammates expect him to shoot when he gets the ball and they move to a position where they aren't expecting the pass. As for McAdoo's, if dude wants to be a wing, he needs to catch that ball on the break.

i dont know what you saw but those were poorly delivered passes.

also, mcadoo's not a wing.

[SWedd523]

i dont know what you saw but those were poorly delivered passes.

also, mcadoo's not a wing.

I saw the game in it's entirety. Let's break his turnovers down.


14:41--bad pass to Kendall (Never make a backwards pass)

6:26--iffy pass to Zeller that he (Zeller) pulled his hands back from because he thought the other team touched it. Could Zeller have caught it? Most likely, but still not a pass you like to make

19:09--inbounds pass to Strickland gets contested in the air and knocked out of bounds. Bad pass

8:24--pass to Henson clangs off his hands. Henson had his hand up calling for the ball and it just smacked off his hands. Henson's fault

7:12--fast break bounce pass that JMM simply couldn't handle after it hit him in the hands. Was it a bit low? Eh, probably, but it still should have been caught.


I saw two truly bad passes. two that were good passes that simply weren't caught, and one that could've/should've been caught if the other team didn't deflect it Also, McAdoo is trying to transition from PF to SF.

[ManualRam]

when you throw a pass, throw a catchable ball. henson was trying to post up, there was no reason to throw a lead pass to pull him off the block. the mcadoo pass was low and behind him. they were both bad, off target passes.

and no, mcadoo will not have a chance to transition to the wing this yr and most likely not next yr. he's a back up big this yr and will be the starting PF next yr, especially if strickland, hairston and bullock (not to mention mcdonald) all come back next yr, which i expect. jp tokoto's coming in next yr as well. it doesnt matter what he's trying to do, he's needed as a big man and his game is much more suited for that.

[SWedd523]

when you throw a pass, throw a catchable ball. henson was trying to post up, there was no reason to throw a lead pass to pull him off the block. the mcadoo pass was low and behind him. they were both bad, off target passes.

and no, mcadoo will not have a chance to transition to the wing this yr and most likely not next yr. he's a back up big this yr and will be the starting PF next yr, especially if strickland, hairston and bullock (not to mention mcdonald) all come back next yr, which i expect. jp tokoto's coming in next yr as well. it doesnt matter what he's trying to do, he's needed as a big man and his game is much more suited for that.

Both passes hit the recipients in the hands. If that constitutes bad passes then so be it.

I never said McAdoo should be a SF. Just that HE'S trying to transition to the wing. If he wants to do that then he needs to prove it by catching the pass.

Strickland will be back because he has no draft stock. He shouldn't be a starter in the first place and is only out there for his perimeter defense. Leslie will always be a 6th man type of player because that's where his role is best suited. I don't think Tokoto will be a starter next year unless Bullock leaves. Still way too soon to try and project where any of these guys will be playing next year.

[ManualRam]

more like they got their hands on the ball despite the pass. if a player throws an off-target pass, the blame is more on him over the player who could not catch the off-target pass. they were bad passes and harrison barnes needs to improve on his passing, period.

strickland will be back and he will be starting. out of he, hairston and bullock, he is the best 2ndary ball-handler and will be the best slasher on the team. rarely do you see players go from starting as a soph and junior to not starting as a senior. hairston and bullock are more suited to play the college 3 than mcadoo, as is tokoto in a back up capacity. the only size they will have next yr will be mcadoo and 2 raw, 4 star freshman.

[#1 pick]

I don't think Granger is overrated, but I also see almost zero Granger in Barnes.

This. Barnes has been solid so far. Seen some good, some bad, some inbetween. Hanson has been a beast so far but once the ACC season starts, expect Barnes to carry the load.