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Cam Whitmore is Corey Maggette with better defense and worse foul-drawing. I think that's the upside version of him. Not a bad player but you won't lose sleep for passing on him in the high lottery I don't think.

This discussion made me think of Jonathon Simmons lol

Notanoob wrote:Cam Whitmore is Corey Maggette with better defense and worse foul-drawing. I think that's the upside version of him. Not a bad player but you won't lose sleep for passing on him in the high lottery I don't think.

Corey Maggette was a worse 3-point shooter (granted, different era, maybe he could have developed) and took a ton of long 2s. Whitmore is much more of a 3 or rim FGA type.

jezzerinho wrote:Some of these comparisons make me worry even more for Whitmore.

Saddiq Bey? I can see it, but Bey came into the league having grown up as a guard who grew into a forward. In college, he did a bit of pnr initiation and it wasnt terrible, by any means. He wasnt as explosive as Whitmore, for sure.

So, if Bey - who has at least the bag and muscle memory of passing out of drives to the rim - can't manage it to Detroit's satisfaction, what chance will Whitmore have? Whitmore has no floor vision whatsoever. His entire offensive toolbag consists of a backdoor cut to hang out under the basket, a bullyball drive and an average 3pt C&S shot. In other words, Whitmore in year one looks to be poor-mans Saddiq Bey in many respects.

Mathurin? Whitmore doesnt have the shooting chops that Mathurin had coming out, either in C&S or off the bounce. Mathurin was another who showed some passing ability late in his sophomore year at Arizona. Whitmore shows none of that.

With Cam, you're either taking a wild swing or you're banking so heavily on his drive game being unstoppable that his other glaing deficiencies are worth it. I know he's still a baby, but he's missing glaring pieces in his game and his oncourt demeanour doesnt suggest he's too worried about it.

I don't think that Bey is a great comparison, to be honest. I also need to point out that Whitmore's C&S 3 isn't bad at all. He shot 40% on C&S looks from 3. That's a good number and indicates that he will be a good off-ball player because he is good enough of a shooter that you have to close down on him and he has the slashing ability to attack a closeout. Whitmore, imo, has a 3&D baseline that could be reached without much issue. Even if his on-ball game doesn't translate well, he can fall back on that.

It is definitely true that Mathurin showed development when it comes to passing late in his sophomore year but as a rookie in the NBA he was a negative assist to turnover ratio guy (7.6% assist rate, 11.7% turnover rate). And despite the bad assist to turnover ratio, Mathurin was still excellent as a rookie scorer in the league.

Spacing at the NBA level is far superior than it is at almost every other level of basketball and the impact that this has on downhill slashers like Mathurin and Whitmore cannot be discounted, imo. Players who can get to the rim with such ease at lower levels can absolutely thrive with NBA spacing. It makes their job that much easier.

Whitmore does have bust potential because his bad playmaking can indeed short-circuit his whole game. But if he improves his feel for the game (which can happen up to a point and he's definitely young enough to do it) then he has a 3&D baseline that could possibly blossom into a dynamic wing scorer.

Based on the comments here, I am higher on Whitmore than most but I do believe that he's easily a top 7 pick, if healthy. The "if healthy" part is important. If he's falling due to injury red flags then that's a completely different deal.

NYPiston wrote:

The Moose wrote:The biggest issue I have with Whitmore is just how much of his scoring this season revolved around bully ball driving, where he just puts his head down and drove without a real plan, outside of getting a shot up somehow. Said it before but he plays like a bull in a china shop way too often, and really doesn't seem to read or react to what the defense is actually presenting him in front of him, and it's a major part of his insanely low ast numbers.

I'm not convinced this driving style will translate well for him at the NBA level.
Watching old Arizona clips of Derrick Williams gives me pause about explosive athletes who rely so heavily on just bullying guys on the drive.

So much of Cam's outcome is going to come down to how effective his jumper is, and if he can actually be impactful defensively. He has shown some actual perimeter skill as a shot creator, so that gives some hope, but I just can't buy top 5

Yep, this is what I see as well. You know who that reminds me of? Saddiq Bey who the Pistons couldn't wait to get rid of.
Same issues except in a more athletic package, that running back mentality of bullying into traffic then taking a tough shot or making a poor decision with the ball, low pass rate so the ball sticks when he gets it, inconsistent long range shooting. He probably has a better handle than Bey and is a much better athlete vertically so he'll be better in transition but the style he plays gives me serious Bey PTSD flashbacks. I'm just not seeing the hype outside of being a well put together guy that is athletic.

You just got me completely off wanting to consider him. I see this x100 after watching Bey.

Nuntius wrote:

jezzerinho wrote:Some of these comparisons make me worry even more for Whitmore.

Saddiq Bey? I can see it, but Bey came into the league having grown up as a guard who grew into a forward. In college, he did a bit of pnr initiation and it wasnt terrible, by any means. He wasnt as explosive as Whitmore, for sure.

So, if Bey - who has at least the bag and muscle memory of passing out of drives to the rim - can't manage it to Detroit's satisfaction, what chance will Whitmore have? Whitmore has no floor vision whatsoever. His entire offensive toolbag consists of a backdoor cut to hang out under the basket, a bullyball drive and an average 3pt C&S shot. In other words, Whitmore in year one looks to be poor-mans Saddiq Bey in many respects.

Mathurin? Whitmore doesnt have the shooting chops that Mathurin had coming out, either in C&S or off the bounce. Mathurin was another who showed some passing ability late in his sophomore year at Arizona. Whitmore shows none of that.

With Cam, you're either taking a wild swing or you're banking so heavily on his drive game being unstoppable that his other glaing deficiencies are worth it. I know he's still a baby, but he's missing glaring pieces in his game and his oncourt demeanour doesnt suggest he's too worried about it.

I don't think that Bey is a great comparison, to be honest. I also need to point out that Whitmore's C&S 3 isn't bad at all. He shot 40% on C&S looks from 3. That's a good number and indicates that he will be a good off-ball player because he is good enough of a shooter that you have to close down on him and he has the slashing ability to attack a closeout. Whitmore, imo, has a 3&D baseline that could be reached without much issue. Even if his on-ball game doesn't translate well, he can fall back on that.

It is definitely true that Mathurin showed development when it comes to passing late in his sophomore year but as a rookie in the NBA he was a negative assist to turnover ratio guy (7.6% assist rate, 11.7% turnover rate). And despite the bad assist to turnover ratio, Mathurin was still excellent as a rookie scorer in the league.

Spacing at the NBA level is far superior than it is at almost every other level of basketball and the impact that this has on downhill slashers like Mathurin and Whitmore cannot be discounted, imo. Players who can get to the rim with such ease at lower levels can absolutely thrive with NBA spacing. It makes their job that much easier.

Whitmore does have bust potential because his bad playmaking can indeed short-circuit his whole game. But if he improves his feel for the game (which can happen up to a point and he's definitely young enough to do it) then he has a 3&D baseline that could possibly blossom into a dynamic wing scorer.

Based on the comments here, I am higher on Whitmore than most but I do believe that he's easily a top 7 pick, if healthy. The "if healthy" part is important. If he's falling due to injury red flags then that's a completely different deal.

All fair points.

My point, maybe badly expressed, was that if guys like Bey and Mathurin, who looked in college to understand the need to develop a passing game, struggled to be effective passers im the NBA, what chance does Whitmore have? His assist numbers are all-time-history-low, his lack of feel and vision is apparent, when he's off ball hes not reading the defence for his team, he's reading it just for him. If other, better-prepared rookies struggle to move the ball and not turn it over, Cam is going to become a colossal black hole, one that defences will swarm and dare him to try to pass out of.

jezzerinho wrote:

Nuntius wrote:

jezzerinho wrote:Some of these comparisons make me worry even more for Whitmore.

Saddiq Bey? I can see it, but Bey came into the league having grown up as a guard who grew into a forward. In college, he did a bit of pnr initiation and it wasnt terrible, by any means. He wasnt as explosive as Whitmore, for sure.

So, if Bey - who has at least the bag and muscle memory of passing out of drives to the rim - can't manage it to Detroit's satisfaction, what chance will Whitmore have? Whitmore has no floor vision whatsoever. His entire offensive toolbag consists of a backdoor cut to hang out under the basket, a bullyball drive and an average 3pt C&S shot. In other words, Whitmore in year one looks to be poor-mans Saddiq Bey in many respects.

Mathurin? Whitmore doesnt have the shooting chops that Mathurin had coming out, either in C&S or off the bounce. Mathurin was another who showed some passing ability late in his sophomore year at Arizona. Whitmore shows none of that.

With Cam, you're either taking a wild swing or you're banking so heavily on his drive game being unstoppable that his other glaing deficiencies are worth it. I know he's still a baby, but he's missing glaring pieces in his game and his oncourt demeanour doesnt suggest he's too worried about it.

I don't think that Bey is a great comparison, to be honest. I also need to point out that Whitmore's C&S 3 isn't bad at all. He shot 40% on C&S looks from 3. That's a good number and indicates that he will be a good off-ball player because he is good enough of a shooter that you have to close down on him and he has the slashing ability to attack a closeout. Whitmore, imo, has a 3&D baseline that could be reached without much issue. Even if his on-ball game doesn't translate well, he can fall back on that.

It is definitely true that Mathurin showed development when it comes to passing late in his sophomore year but as a rookie in the NBA he was a negative assist to turnover ratio guy (7.6% assist rate, 11.7% turnover rate). And despite the bad assist to turnover ratio, Mathurin was still excellent as a rookie scorer in the league.

Spacing at the NBA level is far superior than it is at almost every other level of basketball and the impact that this has on downhill slashers like Mathurin and Whitmore cannot be discounted, imo. Players who can get to the rim with such ease at lower levels can absolutely thrive with NBA spacing. It makes their job that much easier.

Whitmore does have bust potential because his bad playmaking can indeed short-circuit his whole game. But if he improves his feel for the game (which can happen up to a point and he's definitely young enough to do it) then he has a 3&D baseline that could possibly blossom into a dynamic wing scorer.

Based on the comments here, I am higher on Whitmore than most but I do believe that he's easily a top 7 pick, if healthy. The "if healthy" part is important. If he's falling due to injury red flags then that's a completely different deal.

All fair points.

My point, maybe badly expressed, was that if guys like Bey and Mathurin, who looked in college to understand the need to develop a passing game, struggled to be effective passers im the NBA, what chance does Whitmore have? His assist numbers are all-time-history-low, his lack of feel and vision is apparent, when he's off ball hes not reading the defence for his team, he's reading it just for him. If other, better-prepared rookies struggle to move the ball and not turn it over, Cam is going to become a colossal black hole, one that defences will swarm and dare him to try to pass out of.

I understand your point. It is definitely a valid one. My counter-point was that the increased spacing that the NBA game offers has done wonders for downhill drivers in the recent past with Mathurin being the most recent example (and a very successful one at that).

I have hope for Whitmore because he generates a ton of rim pressure, has a good perimeter shot and the defensive tools are there. Even if his on-ball upside doesn't translate at the NBA level due to his tunnel vision and bad feel, he has enough qualities to turn into a useful off-ball player. He can fit into that 3&D mold as a baseline. That, to me, significantly limits his bust potential.

If Whitmore got his points in the mid-range and didn't generate the kind of rim pressure that he does then I would stir clear off him. But he does have that one main advantage. He forces bad shots, yes, but those bad shots usually aren't low-percentage mid-range attempts. They are a result of his over-aggression and his tunnel vision. It is, in my opinion at least, much easier to fix that than it is to fix settling for inefficient mid-range Js.

I would also have a different outlook of Whitmore if he wasn't a very young freshman who missed his only training camp due to injury. If he had participated in a training camp and still made those mistakes, it would be an issue. But he didn't and he will be among the few prospects that won't have turned 19 by draft night.

That can allow me to hope that Whitmore's lack of playmaking feel can be worked on. It will never be elite (feel can only be improved up to a certain point, imo) but it could become serviceable in time. He can learn.

Witless

Medical rumor must be real

What's his medical condition?

CptCrunch wrote:What's his medical condition?

No idea but started reading yesterday that he was dropping due to one

Broken tibia and a micro fracture of the same leg

I thought he would be gone by now though

EvanZ wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Doesn't surprise me. Also I'm hearing injury concerns.

Told you guys.

I had Cam 12 and it was too high lol


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This much of a fall is obviously not a talent issue. Getting medically flagged is the only possible reason.

CptCrunch wrote:This much of a fall is obviously not a talent issue. Getting medically flagged is the only possible reason.

It’s actually not just medical


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EvanZ wrote:

CptCrunch wrote:This much of a fall is obviously not a talent issue. Getting medically flagged is the only possible reason.

It’s actually not just medical


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Anything you post is basically anti-truth, so it's clearly just medical.

CptCrunch wrote:

EvanZ wrote:

CptCrunch wrote:This much of a fall is obviously not a talent issue. Getting medically flagged is the only possible reason.

It’s actually not just medical


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Anything you post is basically anti-truth, so it's clearly just medical.

I mean all I told you guys has come true. But sure.

EvanZ wrote:

CptCrunch wrote:

EvanZ wrote:It’s actually not just medical


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Anything you post is basically anti-truth, so it's clearly just medical.

I mean all I told you guys has come true. But sure.

I mean you quoted a Twitter post.

I mean I wasn't the biggest fan at his 5th consensus rank but at 20 I'm excited. Rockets have 500 young guys so even if his legs turn to wet toilet paper it's no big loss to whiff at 20