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Perhaps more importantly, the competition Sengun faced was at least on par with major-conference NCAA competition. In other words, if Sengun had been an NCAA freshman instead, he probably would've put up similar numbers (and that may be a conservative estimate, because you know, there are no Efes's in the NCAA). He very likely would've pushed past Garza for the Wooden Award, and on a decent team he very likely would've won the championship too. Do you disagree?

I think you are seriously over-rating the NCAA here. Call it 12 teams of 12 players per conference = 144 players. Even in the best major conferences, how many players get paid to play ball at any time in their lives (never mind could actually get paid from 18-22). Historically, I will be shocked if you can find a conference where there's 3 players per team that get paid to play... Whereas, in a professional league, by definition, every player in the league is good enough to get paid.

[greenandgold]

This American top 5 is a product of groupthink. Sengun’s the best player in the draft. He would have dominated both the NCAA and the G-League. He is being downgraded because of a hazy kind of zenophobia: worry he’s just another Enes Kanter, worry that the Turkish League isn’t competitive enough.

I think the NCAA isn’t competitive enough. Would UCLA be a winning team in the Turkish League, playing against grown men professionals?

This kid’s different.

[Charm]

...

Perhaps more importantly, the competition Sengun faced was at least on par with major-conference NCAA competition. In other words, if Sengun had been an NCAA freshman instead, he probably would've put up similar numbers (and that may be a conservative estimate, because you know, there are no Efes's in the NCAA). He very likely would've pushed past Garza for the Wooden Award, and on a decent team he very likely would've won the championship too. Do you disagree?

I think you are seriously over-rating the NCAA here. Call it 12 teams of 12 players per conference = 144 players. Even in the best major conferences, how many players get paid to play ball at any time in their lives (never mind could actually get paid from 18-22). Historically, I will be shocked if you can find a conference where there's 3 players per team that get paid to play... Whereas, in a professional league, by definition, every player in the league is good enough to get paid.

Yeah, I'm being generous so that I don't freak people out too much. Sengun's team in Turkey has a former NCAA Tournament MVP coming off the bench. They'd be the odds on favorites to win the NCAA championship...it probably wouldn't be close. And as has been pointed out, they're hardly exceptional among European teams.

[Mirotic12]

Of course the Turkish League is much better than the NCAA, and yes it's also better than the G-League. No doubt about that whatsoever. So yes, Sengun's performance is against a higher level of competition than the G-League.

The Turkish League just isn't the best or second best league in Europe.

EuroLeague
EuroCup / FIBA BCL
Spanish League
VTB United League
Italian League

Those are better leagues. If we just count domestic leagues,

Spanish League
VTB United League
Italian League

Are better.

Turkish League is better than Greek League at the moment, since Olympiacos doesn't play domestically for now. If Olympiacos rejoins the Greek League next season (they supposedly will), then it's debatable between those two leagues, as to which is better.

Turkish League is arguably around the level of the German League, but a bit better. Turkish League is better than the other somewhat relevant domestic / regional leagues like the French League, the Adriatic League, the Israeli League, and the Lithuanian League. The Turkish League is also better than the 4th tier European league, the FIBA Europe Cup.

So counting pan European leagues, the Turkish League is the 7th best league in Europe, and in terms of the domestic leagues, it's the 4th best league in Europe. These US based sports articles make it sound like it's the best or second best league on the continent, and maybe even second best league in the world.

[Mirotic12]

Also, Sertac Sanli just had a great semifinals game against CSKA Moscow at the EuroLeague Final Four. He's definitely one of the best centers in the EuroLeague, and anyone saying otherwise clearly hasn't watched any Efes games.

[Charm]

Of course the Turkish League is much better than the NCAA, and yes it's also better than the G-League. No doubt about that whatsoever. So yes, Sengun's performance is against a higher level of competition than the G-League.

The Turkish League just isn't the best or second best league in Europe.

EuroLeague
EuroCup / FIBA BCL
Spanish League
VTB United League
Italian League

Those are all clearly better leagues. If we just count domestic leagues,

Spanish League
VTB United League
Italian League

Are all better.

Turkish League is better than Greek League at the moment, since Olympiacos doesn't play domestically for now. If Olympiacos rejoins the Greek League next season (they supposedly will), then it's debatable between those two leagues, as to which is better.

Turkish League is arguably around the level of the German League, but a bit better. Turkish League is better than the other somewhat relevant domestic /regional leagues like the French League, the Adriatic League, the Israeli League, and the Lithuanian League. The Turkish League is also better than the 4th tier European league, the FIBA Europe Cup.

So counting pan European leagues, the Turkish League is the 7th best league in Europe, and in terms of the domestic leagues, it's the 4th best league in Europe. These US based sports articles make it sound like it's the best or second best league on the continent.

I think among domestic leagues (international leagues like BCL get complicated with so many phases) the Turkish League is closer to the VTB and Italian than you're making it out to be. But that's really beside the point.

What's important is that it's no weaker than the other major pipelines for frontcourt prospects, namely the Adriatic League and the NCAA, so it's generally safe to compare Sengun's production apples-to-apples against the production of NCAA bigs and most previous Euro bigs. And of course, in comparisons to NCAA prospects, that's probably selling Sengun well short of what he'd really be capable of against typical NCAA competition.

That's remarkable, because even if you take his production at face value, he'd basically be dead even with Garza as the best player in the NCAA, and Sengun was younger than most freshmen last season. It's hard to overstate how much of an outlier he is.

[Mirotic12]

I think among domestic leagues (international leagues like BCL get complicated with so many phases) the Turkish League is closer to the VTB and Italian than you're making it out to be. But that's really beside the point.

What's important is that it's no weaker than the other major pipelines for frontcourt prospects, namely the Adriatic League and the NCAA, so it's generally safe to compare Sengun's production apples-to-apples against the production of NCAA bigs and most previous Euro bigs. And of course, in comparisons to NCAA prospects, that's probably selling Sengun well short of what he'd really be capable of against typical NCAA competition.

That's remarkable, because even if you take his production at face value, he'd basically be dead even with Garza as the best player in the NCAA, and Sengun was younger than most freshmen last season. It's hard to overstate how much of an outlier he is.

The Adriatic League and the French League is also another such case - the NBA just drafts any player that shows literally any pulse at a young age from those leagues. Almost every year the NBA drafts players from those leagues that would have never even been considered by any NBA team ever, if they played in another area of Europe.

The NBA's whole way of looking at basketball in Europe is a complete and total joke. They have been drafting numerous guys from the Adriatic League and French League in recent years, that their max upside is being a decent player in the EuroCup / BCL one day. The NBA talent evaluators are downright amateurish and clownish when it comes to scouting European basketball.

As far as the European domestic leagues go, the Italian League is a little better than the Turkish League, but yes, those two leagues are around the same range of level. However, the VTB United League is clearly better than the Turkish League.

[Charm]

I think among domestic leagues (international leagues like BCL get complicated with so many phases) the Turkish League is closer to the VTB and Italian than you're making it out to be. But that's really beside the point.

What's important is that it's no weaker than the other major pipelines for frontcourt prospects, namely the Adriatic League and the NCAA, so it's generally safe to compare Sengun's production apples-to-apples against the production of NCAA bigs and most previous Euro bigs. And of course, in comparisons to NCAA prospects, that's probably selling Sengun well short of what he'd really be capable of against typical NCAA competition.

That's remarkable, because even if you take his production at face value, he'd basically be dead even with Garza as the best player in the NCAA, and Sengun was younger than most freshmen last season. It's hard to overstate how much of an outlier he is.

The Adriatic League and the French League is another such case - the NBA just drafts any player that shows literally any pulse at a young age from those leagues. Every single year the NBA drafts players from those leagues that would have never even been considered by any NBA team ever, if they played in another area.

The NBA's whole way of looking at basketball in Europe is a complete and total joke.

As far as the European domestic leagues go, the Italian League is a little better than the Turkish League, but yes, those two leagues are around the same range of level. However, the VTB United League is clearly better than the Turkish League.

Generally agree. The Deni-Luka comparisons from some talking heads last year...yeeeeesh

Same basic formula that works for NCAA guys seems to work for Euro guys. Youth + Productivity + Level of Competition. Some guys only check two of those boxes and go on to be NBA stars. But a lot of guys who check all three boxes go on to be NBA stars.

[Hal14]

This American top 5 is a product of groupthink. Sengun’s the best player in the draft. He would have dominated both the NCAA and the G-League. He is being downgraded because of a hazy kind of zenophobia: worry he’s just another Enes Kanter, worry that the Turkish League isn’t competitive enough.

I think the NCAA isn’t competitive enough. Would UCLA be a winning team in the Turkish League, playing against grown men professionals?

This kid’s different.

Based on what you're saying here, sounds like it would be interesting to see him and Evan Mobley matched up at the pre-draft combine..

Isaiah Jackson too..

[Charm]

This American top 5 is a product of groupthink. Sengun’s the best player in the draft. He would have dominated both the NCAA and the G-League. He is being downgraded because of a hazy kind of zenophobia: worry he’s just another Enes Kanter, worry that the Turkish League isn’t competitive enough.

I think the NCAA isn’t competitive enough. Would UCLA be a winning team in the Turkish League, playing against grown men professionals?

This kid’s different.

Would be interesting to see him and Evan Mobley matched up at the pre-draft combine..

I think Sengun and Mobley are more similar than a lot of people think. Both are very good passers, good ballhandlers, and have wonderfully soft touch. I think Sengun is a nose ahead in all of those areas, but Mobley's no slouch. Inside, Sengun lacks Mobley's length, but Mobley lacks Sengun's physicality. Both of them have some potential to be adequate perimeter defenders, but aren't quite there yet.

Tiebreaker for me is that Sengun's a full year younger. So he's probably just a bit more likely than Mobley to make the big offensive improvements that would elevate him from quality starter to superstar. But both have really tantalizing ceilings.

[Mickey8]

Sengun is not the best player in this year NBA Draft and he's highly overrated and for the position at which he will be taken at , he will end up as the bust. You heard it here first I will bet anyone on this thread.

[EvanZ]

This American top 5 is a product of groupthink. Sengun’s the best player in the draft. He would have dominated both the NCAA and the G-League. He is being downgraded because of a hazy kind of zenophobia: worry he’s just another Enes Kanter, worry that the Turkish League isn’t competitive enough.

I think the NCAA isn’t competitive enough. Would UCLA be a winning team in the Turkish League, playing against grown men professionals?

This kid’s different.

Would be interesting to see him and Evan Mobley matched up at the pre-draft combine..

I think Sengun and Mobley are more similar than a lot of people think. Both are very good passers, good ballhandlers, and have wonderfully soft touch. I think Sengun is a nose ahead in all of those areas, but Mobley's no slouch. Inside, Sengun lacks Mobley's length, but Mobley lacks Sengun's physicality. Both of them have some potential to be adequate perimeter defenders, but aren't quite there yet.

Tiebreaker for me is that Sengun's a full year younger. So he's probably just a bit more likely than Mobley to make the big offensive improvements that would elevate him from quality starter to superstar. But both have really tantalizing ceilings.

Only his agent or his dad could compare Sengun to Mobley without mentioning the disparity in athleticism.

So are you his dad or his agent?

[Hal14]

Would be interesting to see him and Evan Mobley matched up at the pre-draft combine..

I think Sengun and Mobley are more similar than a lot of people think. Both are very good passers, good ballhandlers, and have wonderfully soft touch. I think Sengun is a nose ahead in all of those areas, but Mobley's no slouch. Inside, Sengun lacks Mobley's length, but Mobley lacks Sengun's physicality. Both of them have some potential to be adequate perimeter defenders, but aren't quite there yet.

Tiebreaker for me is that Sengun's a full year younger. So he's probably just a bit more likely than Mobley to make the big offensive improvements that would elevate him from quality starter to superstar. But both have really tantalizing ceilings.

Only his agent or his dad could compare Sengun to Mobley without mentioning the disparity in athleticism.

So are you his dad or his agent?

Jokic is about to win MVP and he's not very athletic at all..

But yeah, not only did Charm not mention the large disparity in athleticism, but Mobley also as a solid advantage in overall defense, rim protection and outside shooting.

[Hal14]

Sengun is not the best player in this year NBA Draft and he's highly overrated and for the position at which he will be taken at , he will end up as the bust. You heard it here first I will bet anyone on this thread.

well, there you have it. Sengun is the most polarizing player in the draft.

We've got people saying he is the best player in the draft and we've got people saying he will be a bust, based on where he will be picked (likely in the 6-11 range)

[greenandgold]

Sengun is probably a better pure athlete than Mobley, though of course Sengun is a bit smaller.

You’re not going to see Mobley doing a 360 dunk. Sengun has that in his skillset. He’s a tremendous in-game dunker:

Watch on YouTube

[Charm]

Would be interesting to see him and Evan Mobley matched up at the pre-draft combine..

I think Sengun and Mobley are more similar than a lot of people think. Both are very good passers, good ballhandlers, and have wonderfully soft touch. I think Sengun is a nose ahead in all of those areas, but Mobley's no slouch. Inside, Sengun lacks Mobley's length, but Mobley lacks Sengun's physicality. Both of them have some potential to be adequate perimeter defenders, but aren't quite there yet.

Tiebreaker for me is that Sengun's a full year younger. So he's probably just a bit more likely than Mobley to make the big offensive improvements that would elevate him from quality starter to superstar. But both have really tantalizing ceilings.

Only his agent or his dad could compare Sengun to Mobley without mentioning the disparity in athleticism.

So are you his dad or his agent?

There's more to athleticism than just max vert. Mobley's always going to be a better leaper than Sengun, and Sengun's always going to have a stronger base than Mobley. I don't know that one is more important than the other for an aspiring NBA center.

[EvanZ]

Sengun is probably a better pure athlete than Mobley, though of course Sengun is a bit smaller.

You’re not going to see Mobley doing a 360 dunk. Sengun has that in his skillset. He’s a tremendous in-game dunker:

Watch on YouTube

What are you guys smoking?

[greenandgold]

Mobley is 13 months older than Sengun, and was far less productive than Sengun while playing in a much weaker league.

Case closed. Neither are high flyers, but in a dunk contest I would absolutely put my money on Sengun over Mobley.

Mobley can’t do a 360 dunk in transition. Like most centers he just can’t.

[greenandgold]

Players who are this young and this productive in a professional league just do not bust in the NBA. That’s based on history.

The Euro busts are the kids drafted on pure potential and workouts, who never produced in their professional league (endless list including Dragan Bender, Frank Ntilikina etc).

Sengun has very low bust potential based on history.

[WuTang_CMB]

Sengun is impressive for 18.
I think he gets there defensively under the right guidance. But in 3 years he could be a legit centre.

His measurements are a concern but maybe he does grow a bit