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Jaden Ivey

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clyde21
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#241 » by clyde21 » Sat Jul 9, 2022 6:31 pm

The-Power wrote:I don't understand all this on-ball/off-ball focus with Ivey. He's a player who can create on the ball and play off the ball. He did both effectively on a team with a clogged up paint in college. He's neither a PG to run your offense, nor someone you want off the ball all the time. He's a CG who creates for himself and others on the ball, and will find ways to contribute off the ball. That's it.


it's a focus because

1) he's not a great facilitator
2) he's not a great shooter

so yea, he is a combo guard but not because he's a both a great playmaker and off-ball player/shooter, he's a combo guard because he doesn't do either at a particularly great level. that's the difference.

that's why i feel like Detroit is a great spot for him, because he's going to be slotted next to a great playmaker in Cade, and great shoot in Bey, and he'll get to do what he does best, which is run and pressure the rim and then extrapolate his game from there.

from a personnel standpoint it's the absolute best fit for him from the teams picking in that range.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#242 » by clyde21 » Sat Jul 9, 2022 6:35 pm

codydaze wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:
It's a dose of reality for people that have viewed him as a special basketball player. His three pointer needs work too.


still waiting for you to post those ATO numbers for rookie PGs drafted top 3


Not that I think it matters but I was bored and interested in seeing the numbers so I went back to 2011 for a list of 20 guards that were taken top 6 and got the ATO numbers.

Lonzo Ball (2.76)
Markelle Fultz (2.51)
Ben Simmons (2.38)
Marcus Smart (2.31)
Ja Morant (2.22)
Damian Lillard (2.19)
Lamelo Ball (2.16)
Trae Young (2.12)
Kris Dunn (2.11)
De'Aaron Fox (1.85)
Luka Doncic (1.74)
Kyrie Irving (1.72)
Dante Exum (1.68)
Cade Cunningham (1.52)
Darius Garland (1.52)
Bradley Beal (1.52)
Dion Waiters (1.51)
Jalen Suggs (1.46)
D'Angelo Russell (1.36)
Victor Oladipo (1.28)

The top 4 was kinda surprising to me. I used Fultz first full season btw so wasn't technically his "rookie" year but those first two partial seasons had a really high ATO as well.

Edit: Didn't include Jalen Green but he came in at 1.30 for his rookie year.


thanks for the effort - looking at the numbers, doesn't seem we can draw any particular conclusion or threshold from this. the fact that Dunn/Smart posted better ATOs than Luka their rookie years almost kills his entire narrative.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#243 » by codydaze » Sat Jul 9, 2022 7:24 pm

clyde21 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
still waiting for you to post those ATO numbers for rookie PGs drafted top 3


Not that I think it matters but I was bored and interested in seeing the numbers so I went back to 2011 for a list of 20 guards that were taken top 6 and got the ATO numbers.

Lonzo Ball (2.76)
Markelle Fultz (2.51)
Ben Simmons (2.38)
Marcus Smart (2.31)
Ja Morant (2.22)
Damian Lillard (2.19)
Lamelo Ball (2.16)
Trae Young (2.12)
Kris Dunn (2.11)
De'Aaron Fox (1.85)
Luka Doncic (1.74)
Kyrie Irving (1.72)
Dante Exum (1.68)
Cade Cunningham (1.52)
Darius Garland (1.52)
Bradley Beal (1.52)
Dion Waiters (1.51)
Jalen Suggs (1.46)
D'Angelo Russell (1.36)
Victor Oladipo (1.28)

The top 4 was kinda surprising to me. I used Fultz first full season btw so wasn't technically his "rookie" year but those first two partial seasons had a really high ATO as well.

Edit: Didn't include Jalen Green but he came in at 1.30 for his rookie year.


thanks for the effort - looking at the numbers, doesn't seem we can draw any particular conclusion or threshold from this. the fact that Dunn/Smart posted better ATOs than Luka their rookie years almost kills his entire narrative.


Yeah there are so many variables that go into a rookie season that you can't really draw conclusions about a player based simply on raw numbers.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#244 » by SelfishPlayer » Sat Jul 9, 2022 8:20 pm

If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#245 » by clyde21 » Sat Jul 9, 2022 8:37 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...


you're the one who brought up rookie ATO numbers to try and prove your point, now you're changing the goalposts. no one is saying Cade is fkn CP3.

but if you wanna put that together, go head.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#246 » by The Moose » Sat Jul 9, 2022 11:27 pm

Ivey definitely has his struggles and warts as a passer, but he's a very good transition passer, especially considering the speed he plays at.
He was in the NCAA, and he's shown the same thus far in SL

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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#247 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:08 am

Ivey has to be one of the more erroneously analysed prospects that I have ever seen. His shooting was supposed to be a negative along with his playmaking. His shooting looks about where it needs to be as a future All Star scoring lead guard.

SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#248 » by The Moose » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:10 am

SelfishPlayer wrote:Ivey has to be one of the more erroneously analysed prospects that I have ever seen. His shooting was supposed to be a negative along with his playmaking. His shooting looks about where it needs to be as a future All Star scoring lead guard.



12/12 ft's in SL is very encouraging

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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#249 » by Big J » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:18 am

The crow that dudes are gonna be eating on this kid is gonna be insane. Pistons are gonna be his team. Cade's shooting percentages are gonna skyrocket as his catch & shoot guy.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#250 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:20 am

The Moose wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Ivey has to be one of the more erroneously analysed prospects that I have ever seen. His shooting was supposed to be a negative along with his playmaking. His shooting looks about where it needs to be as a future All Star scoring lead guard.



12/12 ft's in SL is very encouraging

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Ivey was my #2 overall prospect, so I personally never viewed his shooting as an issue.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#251 » by babyjax13 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:43 am

His release is still a bit slow but his consistency is improving.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#252 » by MotownMadness » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:34 am

SelfishPlayer wrote:If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...

Yeah hes not that type of pure PG. With Cade you still want plenty of off ball plays as well. I actually think the pairing of these two works great cause they both are more combo guards that can take the weight off each other at times running things.

Cade is still the better PG option though cause hes just a leader in general. Hes just disecting the game and one step ahead at times it feels.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#253 » by jman3134 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:49 am

The-Power wrote:I don't understand all this on-ball/off-ball focus with Ivey. He's a player who can create on the ball and play off the ball. He did both effectively on a team with a clogged up paint in college. He's neither a PG to run your offense, nor someone you want off the ball all the time. He's a CG who creates for himself and others on the ball, and will find ways to contribute off the ball. That's it.


This is 100% it. Everyone here is focusing on archetype/trying to place his game in context and missing what this guy's upside case is. Basketball is now positionless. As long as certain roles are filled effectively, it doesn't matter if 1 or 5 is doing them.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#254 » by jman3134 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:53 am

codydaze wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
codydaze wrote:
Not that I think it matters but I was bored and interested in seeing the numbers so I went back to 2011 for a list of 20 guards that were taken top 6 and got the ATO numbers.

Lonzo Ball (2.76)
Markelle Fultz (2.51)
Ben Simmons (2.38)
Marcus Smart (2.31)
Ja Morant (2.22)
Damian Lillard (2.19)
Lamelo Ball (2.16)
Trae Young (2.12)
Kris Dunn (2.11)
De'Aaron Fox (1.85)
Luka Doncic (1.74)
Kyrie Irving (1.72)
Dante Exum (1.68)
Cade Cunningham (1.52)
Darius Garland (1.52)
Bradley Beal (1.52)
Dion Waiters (1.51)
Jalen Suggs (1.46)
D'Angelo Russell (1.36)
Victor Oladipo (1.28)

The top 4 was kinda surprising to me. I used Fultz first full season btw so wasn't technically his "rookie" year but those first two partial seasons had a really high ATO as well.

Edit: Didn't include Jalen Green but he came in at 1.30 for his rookie year.


thanks for the effort - looking at the numbers, doesn't seem we can draw any particular conclusion or threshold from this. the fact that Dunn/Smart posted better ATOs than Luka their rookie years almost kills his entire narrative.


Yeah there are so many variables that go into a rookie season that you can't really draw conclusions about a player based simply on raw numbers.


Thanks for posting this. This is exactly in-line with what I said to him initially. You want to at least be 2-to-1, but for a rookie, his numbers aren't atrocious, especially given who he played with.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#255 » by tmorgan » Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:25 am

As for the Cade/Ivey dynamic going forward, it should be interesting to see how they settle in.

Cade is the best young “leader of men” type I’ve ever seen. The way he talks, walks, plays, it’s all confidence, but in a sort of calm way. Ivey is a coach’s kid but plays with a ton of swagger, skipping after buckets and generally having fun. Still intense, though.

If I had to guess, Cade is the leader, but Ivey is the primary scorer long term. I’m guessing Cade is good with that, but you never know. Weird team dynamics have derailed many a team in the past.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#256 » by EricAnderson » Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:59 pm

I don’t understand the over analyzing of him on the ball.

Sure he has some warts but how many pure points are left outside of Paul?

I get he’s a SG but All these “pg’s” today are basically combo guards who play more like a SG then a PG

I don’t know why he has to be John Stockton
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#257 » by bkseven » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:02 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...

Gtfo this is a Jaden Ivey thread and you’re derailing it to be anti Cade thread
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#258 » by SelfishPlayer » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:27 pm

bkseven wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...

Gtfo this is a Jaden Ivey thread and you’re derailing it to be anti Cade thread


Teammates...

Look at my post history, I've probably never mentioned Cade before this thread.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka

The Mavs missed the playoffs without Brunson.
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#259 » by bkseven » Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:47 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:
bkseven wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:If Cade is supposed to be a special PG talent, then why wouldn't one compile a list of the rookie year assist to turnover ratios of proven special talents at the PG position in the NBA? A list that would have Rose, Curry, Wall, Westbrook, Kidd, Magic, Nash, Payton, Dame, CP3, etc...

Gtfo this is a Jaden Ivey thread and you’re derailing it to be anti Cade thread


Teammates...

Look at my post history, I've probably never mentioned Cade before this thread.


:lol:
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Re: Jaden Ivey 

Post#260 » by Big J » Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:45 am

Lotta dudes said this kid was a bum. I wasn't one of them. They are eatin crow now.

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