DeAndre Ayton

[Ettorefm]

It's amazing how protected Ayton is. He's absolutely clueless on defense, yet he never gets criticized. It's always "yeah, but look at his tools, his skill"

I wish the other prospects in the top 7 had this kind of bias towards them. Mo Bamba does everything right and gives 100% on the court and this low-motor, soft giant gets praised for scoring against dudes way smaller and shorter than him.

We're all in for a rude awakening in the NBA if he keeps playing like this.

If I can get Mitchell Robinson, Jontay Porter or Daniel Gafford in the 20s, I am sure as hell not gonna draft Bamba, Wendell Carter Jr, or
Robert Williams in the lotto/top10.

Geez..I get trying to sound like an expert, but...

Have you followed the forums at all regarding Ayton? His defense gets criticized more than anything else...

His defense , sure. But nothing hurts his stock.

One bad game from Doncic and people question his place in mock drafts. Two videos from bamba and suddenly he doesn't fit at top 5.

Ayton is the worst defender at teh C position i've seen in a decade and yet he's almost a lock here to go nº1. And it's not like he's hakeem on offense, he's playing against joke competition

He reminds me of Drummond; a sure #1 prospect before college, but his lack of motor, defense and being physically engaged got him to #7. But to this board, nothing can hurt his stock, while other prospcts are heavily criticized for every tiny thing.

What has Bamba done for people to consider him outside top 10? Just tell me?

[SportsGuy8]

I agree.

Ayton does look like a beast athlete, but as I have written before, it just looks like he lacks overall awareness, something that's usually not fixable. Even his offensive moves don't seem smooth at all, it's like they're robotic, predetermined, and it doesn't look like he has enough awareness to read the defense. Once he starts facing smart defenders who are going to read him well, I expect major problems.

He seems like a perfect example of someone completely abusing far inferior competition. The game doesn't seem natural to him at all.

P.s.: With that said, he does have beastly abilities. He should still end up being one of the best Cs in the league.

[Ettorefm]

I agree.

Ayton does look like a beast athlete, but as I have written before, it just looks like he lacks overall awareness, something that's usually not fixable. Even his offensive moves don't seem smooth at all, it's like they're robotic, predetermined, and it doesn't look like he has enough awareness to read the defense. Once he starts facing smart defenders who are going to read him well, I expect major problems.

He seems like a perfect example of someone completely abusing far inferior competition. The game doesn't seem natural to him at all.

Ayton, with his body, should be playing like Embiid or Cousins (NBA), just bullying dudes left and right, dominating and dunking on every possession. Strong backdown, dropstep and dunk on two defenders.

Yet, he tries to play 'finesse' (an eufemism for soft)

[Alatan]

His defense is all ready talked about enough but his offensive game isnt that great either.

He knows the moves but doesnt know how to use them. Doesnt read and react but goes for a move and hopes it works. He doesnt have the instincts or understanding of the game. Will he get it eventually? Who knows.
Then there is his lack of toughness. A guy that size should be more physical. I like that he has finesse to his game but he should mix it with toughness the way Embiid and Cousins do it not be a 7 foot 260 pound jump shooter.

He has the tools to be a healthy Embiid type player but looks more like a bad combination of KAT and Drummond.

[J_T]

I agree.

Ayton does look like a beast athlete, but as I have written before, it just looks like he lacks overall awareness, something that's usually not fixable. Even his offensive moves don't seem smooth at all, it's like they're robotic, predetermined, and it doesn't look like he has enough awareness to read the defense. Once he starts facing smart defenders who are going to read him well, I expect major problems.

He seems like a perfect example of someone completely abusing far inferior competition. The game doesn't seem natural to him at all.

P.s.: With that said, he does have beastly abilities. He should still end up being one of the best Cs in the league.

Agreed completely.

I was watching some Shaq college highlights. That was something. He almost looked like he had never held the ball in his hands but the beast mode was tearing through everything. I also watched some Duncan college stuff and Ayton looks very awkward compared to him.

There is a common argument used against such a statement and that is that X Y is younger. The problem with this argument is that the competition is younger and weaker as well. Average age of draftees today is one year below average from 8-10 years ago and two years below drafts from 15-20 years ago. So it really goes both ways when it comes to NCAA prospects' age.

[Ettorefm]

He knows the moves but doesnt know how to use them. Doesnt read and react but goes for a move and hopes it works. He doesnt have the instincts or understanding of the game. Will he get it eventually? Who knows.

So his offense is questionable, the competition is weak, bad feel for the game, weak motor, his moves are mechanical and not instinctive...and on top of it all, atrocious defense?

Why is he #1 again?

[J_T]

He knows the moves but doesnt know how to use them. Doesnt read and react but goes for a move and hopes it works. He doesnt have the instincts or understanding of the game. Will he get it eventually? Who knows.

So his offense is questionable, the competition is weak, bad feel for the game, weak motor, his moves are mechanical and not instinctive...and on top of it all, atrocious defense?

Why is he #1 again?

I'd pick him number two and the answer is because every player in the draft has SOME weaknesses, nobody is perfect.

[Alatan]

He knows the moves but doesnt know how to use them. Doesnt read and react but goes for a move and hopes it works. He doesnt have the instincts or understanding of the game. Will he get it eventually? Who knows.

So his offense is questionable, the competition is weak, bad feel for the game, weak motor, his moves are mechanical and not instinctive...and on top of it all, atrocious defense?

Why is he #1 again?

He is not #1 on my board but i can understand why he is on others. He has the combination of size and athletic ability that few others in the history of the NBA have. On top of that he has a jump shot that could be tweaked to give him range. If he ever "figures out" the game he could be similar to what Embiid is now but healthier. The problem is i doubt he will ever figure out the game.

In short he has amazing potential, really high ceiling but it is offset by his really low floor. Besides that the other prospect in the draft all have major weaknesses as well.

[Ettorefm]

he could be similar to what Embiid is now but healthier

Embiid is a DPOY level defender, and has always been positive on that side of the ball. Ayton is as bad as Bargnani, and has no defensive instincts whatsoever, and those are things very difficult to teach.

[Alatan]

he could be similar to what Embiid is now but healthier

Embiid is a DPOY level defender, and has always been positive on that side of the ball. Ayton is as bad as Bargnani, and has no defensive instincts whatsoever, and those are things very difficult to teach.

I agree i just presented the absolute best case scenario.

[Ettorefm]

he could be similar to what Embiid is now but healthier

Embiid is a DPOY level defender, and has always been positive on that side of the ball. Ayton is as bad as Bargnani, and has no defensive instincts whatsoever, and those are things very difficult to teach.

I agree i just presented the absolute best case scenario.

To me, he's KAT without being as good offensively and even worse on defense. That's not #1 to me. He's a complimentary piece on offense, and any C who's not HOF talent on offense while being awful on defense will never be a focus point of any team.

And it's not like he's Monroe, Okafor or someone like that, awful rim protectors that have elite post moves who can be used as an instantaneous spark off the bench at least. His moves are robotic. Those guys are elite on the post, and can bang against anyone. Monroe has a bad rep but dude is MEAN. Against weaker opponents, he can go for 30 easily while being fouled all the time.

Ayton hates contact and never uses his frame to bully people, settling for jumpers. Kat also is sometimes too in love with his jumper, but he bangs hard for offensive rebounds, putbacks and has some interesting power moves.

70% of KAt on offense and 1.2x of Kat's awful defense is very concerning.

[Alatan]

Embiid is a DPOY level defender, and has always been positive on that side of the ball. Ayton is as bad as Bargnani, and has no defensive instincts whatsoever, and those are things very difficult to teach.

I agree i just presented the absolute best case scenario.

To me, he's KAT without being as good offensively and even worse on defense. That's not #1 to me. He's a complimentary piece on offense, and any C who's not HOF talent on offense while being awful on defense will never be a focus point of any team.

And it's not like he's Monroe, Okafor or someone like that, awful rim protectors that have elite post moves who can be used as an instantaneous spark off the bench at least. His moves are robotic. Those guys are elite on the post, and can bang against anyone. Monroe has a bad rep but dude is MEAN. Against weaker opponents, he can go for 30 easily while being fouled all the time.

Ayton hates contact and never uses his frame to bully people, settling for jumpers. Kat also is sometimes too in love with his jumper, but he bangs hard for offensive rebounds, putbacks and has some interesting power moves.

70% of KAt on offense and 1.2x of Kat's awful defense is very concerning.

The way he plays now he is barely an NBA player but the idea is that he could learn the game and become a beast. I think that he will eventually be a much worse version of KAT but he will be picked high based on his theoretical improvement.

[reanimator]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

[Ettorefm]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

[kg01]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

[Ettorefm]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

I never said that. He has amazing upside, but he's extremely overrated. When a guy has to learn BASKETBALL to reach his potential, I'm not so sure it's such a sure prospect for #1.

When was the last time a guy drafted #1 was 90% a project and had shown very little superstar qualities? Even Wiggins who was mostly athleticism and upside had sick moves and a feel for offense that you don't see in many players..ever.

Of course scouts see the flaws in Ayton. It's in every scouting report. The thing is, this is not a very strong draft. Also, considering he has been touted as the next big player, some scouts don't want to admit they were wrong or that his game hasn't translated as it should

The same happened with Drummond. Remember the Drummond/DAvis discussion? Drummond was supposed to dominate college. Then, he didn't. There is a reason he fell to #7. The thing is, I have never seen someone suddenly develop a motor and love for the game like Drummond has..EVER. I mean it. Drummond played like basketball wasn't even that fun for him, just like Ayton.

But Drummond suddenly became another player in the pros. That's what scouts are banking on. the difference is that Drummond was never clueless on defense like Ayton is -actually, I've seen few players who are in my life.

[kg01]

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

I never said that. He has amazing upside, but he's extremely overrated. When a guy has to learn BASKETBALL to reach his potential, I'm not so sure it's such a sure prospect for #1.

When was the last time a guy drafted #1 was 90% a project and had shown very little superstar qualities? Even Wiggins who was mostly athleticism and upside had sick moves and a feel for offense that you don't see in many players..ever.

Of course scouts see the flaws in Ayton. It's in every scouting report. The thing is, this is not a very strong draft. Also, considering he has been touted as the next big player, some scouts don't want to admit they were wrong or that his game hasn't translated as it should

The same happened with Drummond. Remember the Drummond/DAvis discussion? Drummond was supposed to dominate college. Then, he didn't. There is a reason he fell to #7. The thing is, I have never seen someone suddenly develop a motor and love for the game like Drummond has..EVER. I mean it. Drummond played like basketball wasn't even that fun for him, just like Ayton.

But Drummond suddenly became another player in the pros. That's what scouts are banking on. the difference is that Drummond was never clueless on defense like Ayton is -actually, I've seen few players who are in my life.

Thanks for elaborating. I know you didn't say he shouldn't be playing .. I was just exaggerating at your expense.

I was originally all about Ayton but I've started to have questions after seeing him play. Frankly, for as highly-touted as all these top guys are, I'm having questions about them all.

I do see Ayton floating some which causes me to question his motor and feel for the game. These are not questions I'd want to have at the #1-3 pick. I certainly wouldn't want questions defensively out of a C.

I'm liking Doncic's production overall though.

I question your affinity for Bamba, btw. So far, I haven't see much that makes me believe he's not a slightly better version of Biyombo.

[Nathan2331]

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

I never said that. He has amazing upside, but he's extremely overrated. When a guy has to learn BASKETBALL to reach his potential, I'm not so sure it's such a sure prospect for #1.

When was the last time a guy drafted #1 was 90% a project and had shown very little superstar qualities? Even Wiggins who was mostly athleticism and upside had sick moves and a feel for offense that you don't see in many players..ever.

Of course scouts see the flaws in Ayton. It's in every scouting report. The thing is, this is not a very strong draft. Also, considering he has been touted as the next big player, some scouts don't want to admit they were wrong or that his game hasn't translated as it should

The same happened with Drummond. Remember the Drummond/DAvis discussion? Drummond was supposed to dominate college. Then, he didn't. There is a reason he fell to #7. The thing is, I have never seen someone suddenly develop a motor and love for the game like Drummond has..EVER. I mean it. Drummond played like basketball wasn't even that fun for him, just like Ayton.

But Drummond suddenly became another player in the pros. That's what scouts are banking on. the difference is that Drummond was never clueless on defense like Ayton is -actually, I've seen few players who are in my life.

Thanks for elaborating. I know you didn't say he shouldn't be playing .. I was just exaggerating at your expense.

I was originally all about Ayton but I've started to have questions after seeing him play. Frankly, for as highly-touted as all these top guys are, I'm having questions about them all.

I do see Ayton floating some which causes me to question his motor and feel for the game. These are not questions I'd want to have at the #1-3 pick. I certainly wouldn't want questions defensively out of a C.

I'm liking Doncic's production overall though.

I question your affinity for Bamba, btw. So far, I haven't see much that makes me believe he's not a slightly better version of Biyombo.

The Hawks should take Ayton if he's available, I wouldn't doubt him just yet. Ayton is a poor defender, but in a Hawks system that switches more, I don't think he'd look so lost. He absolutely loses track of his man at times, but in the NBA I think this would be less of an issue over time once his responsibilities become more and more defined. Even next to John Collins, I'd take the lumps, because the two next to each other would give us an athletic, dominant rebounding duo Atlanta hasn't had in years.

His offense is too good to pass up. I hate how many jumpers he shoots, but that doesn't stop him from averaging 20 points a game with a 60% FG% (67% inside the arc). Not comparing him to Towns, but even as a bad defensive center he'd still have great value once his 3 point shot develops.

Bud can work on his defense, I think he's proven that. Although Millsap and Horford were much better defenders coming into Bud's team, on paper I don't think those two together ever looked like the foundation of a top defense. Collins and Ayton have the tools to become at least adequate.

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[DirtyDez]

Why is he #1 again?

Who are you asking why he's #1? Who is saying he's the unanimous #1 pick?

[doordoor123]

Why is he #1 again?

Who are you asking why he's #1? Who is saying he's the unanimous #1 pick?

I have him #8 (for now at least). I expect him to be better by the end of the season, but he has to win his way up from 8 for me.