Doug McDermott

[ManualRam]

He is simply not going to be able to do that. Adam Morrison couldn't even do it, how a guy who is less athletic and a worse ballhandler will do it completely eludes my imagination.

I can't wait to now hear the reasoning for how McDermott is somehow a better prospect than a guy who was picked third.

mcdermott's game isn't similar to morrison's other than the fact that they're both white and were prolific scorers in college. morrison's scoring game in college was very dependent on his ability to create his own offense and making difficult, contested shots. he struggled to play his game at the next because he didn't have the athleticism or strength to create space on his own. as a catch and shoot player, he wasn't anything special at all. doug isn't reliant on shot creation and he's an exceptional catch and shoot shooter from all over the floor.

[CBB_Fan]

The problem is, those role players can play defense. Doug cannot play defense at the next level. He's going to make Charlie V look like Bill Russell. Name a decent pick and pop role player who doesn't play a lick of D.

Synergy Sports listed the following as the worst 5 defenders in the NBA:

1. JR Smith - career 37% from behind the arc, 13.2 PPG
2. Ramon Sessions - 5 seasons over 40% from 3PT, never scored more than 14.4 PPG in a season
3. Marco Bellinelli - Career 39.5% from behind the arc, 9.4 PPG
4. Daniel Gibson - 41% from behind the arc, 7.8 PPG
5. Nicolas Batum - 37% from behind the arc, 11.5 PPG

Many great roleplayers play very good defense, but it is not true that roleplayer = defender. Defense, rebounding, and 3PT shooting are all separate traits that can make a roleplayer valuable. Sometimes players are good at two of the three, sometimes they are exceptional at one. Rarely is a player good at all three.

[ComboGuardCity]

The problem is, those role players can play defense. Doug cannot play defense at the next level. He's going to make Charlie V look like Bill Russell. Name a decent pick and pop role player who doesn't play a lick of D.

Synergy Sports listed the following as the worst 5 defenders in the NBA:

1. JR Smith - career 37% from behind the arc, 13.2 PPG
2. Ramon Sessions - 5 seasons over 40% from 3PT, never scored more than 14.4 PPG in a season
3. Marco Bellinelli - Career 39.5% from behind the arc, 9.4 PPG
4. Daniel Gibson - 41% from behind the arc, 7.8 PPG
5. Nicolas Batum - 37% from behind the arc, 11.5 PPG

Many great roleplayers play very good defense, but it is not true that roleplayer = defender. Defense, rebounding, and 3PT shooting are all separate traits that can make a roleplayer valuable. Sometimes players are good at two of the three, sometimes they are exceptional at one. Rarely is a player good at all three.

Any list that has Batum as a bottom 5 defender is based off faulty stats.

[ComboGuardCity]

Why is Doug Mcdermott suddenly a surefire role player at the very least? He's not. He cannot create his own shot. He's got the footspeed of a below average PF. When was the last time you saw team running curls for a big on the perimeter? Its beyond stupid.

at his baseline he's an exceptional shooter, who can catch and make shots from every level of the floor with a quick release. that aspect alone makes him a valuable role player. surefire? rarely are players surefire anything, but the likelihood of doug being an exceptional shooter is high.

role players aren't expected to create their own shots.

the t'wolves run curls for k-love. there's one. the pel's and magic ran short curl plays for ryan anderson. there's 2. mavs have short curl plays for dirk. there's 3. running those type of plays isn't about foot speed anyways. it's about timing, execution, the curler being able to read defenses on the fly, knowing the counters and being able to quick release with accuracy on the move. like if the defender goes over the top- corner fade. defender is locking and trailing too tight- stop and go. locking and trailing too loose - tight curl off the screener's hip. how was peja's foot speed? chis mullin? dale ellis? dennis scott? dell curry? how is mike dunleavy's footspeed currently? mike miller, dan majerle, wally szczerbiak, jeff hornacek, chuck person, tracy murray? heck how is steph curry's foot speed compared to his defenders'? he's not exactly losing defenders off of curls because of his straight speed and quickness.

None of those guys are nearly as bad as McDermott on D. Its not even close. And some of those names are mind boggling? Dirk? 7 footer with an elite post game? Jeff horacek, who was more than a shooter and played above average D? You WANT him to do well so you're being optimistic, but the NBA has not seen a tweener forward who cannot play defense succeed in this league.

[arambone]

''Dirk? 7 footer with an elite post game?''

McDermott has an elite post game for his size. And Melo is an example of a tweener forward with no d making it. Or Wally Z.

[Mik317]

Over the course of this last year it has became clear that many people have never seen Melo play in their life.

[CBB_Fan]

Any list that has Batum as a bottom 5 defender is based off faulty stats.

More on that.

None of those guys are nearly as bad as McDermott on D. Its not even close. And some of those names are mind boggling? Dirk? 7 footer with an elite post game? Jeff horacek, who was more than a shooter and played above average D? You WANT him to do well so you're being optimistic, but the NBA has not seen a tweener forward who cannot play defense succeed in this league.

He wasn't comparing players, he was comparing the plays that different teams run. Besides which, isn't Carmelo Anthony the definition of a tweener forward that doesn't play very well on defense? And there are plenty of guys worse than him that have had serviceable careers with that set of characteristics. I'm not saying he is Carmelo or Dirk, just that you cannot simply wash a player away with a label.

[ManualRam]

Why is Doug Mcdermott suddenly a surefire role player at the very least? He's not. He cannot create his own shot. He's got the footspeed of a below average PF. When was the last time you saw team running curls for a big on the perimeter? Its beyond stupid.

at his baseline he's an exceptional shooter, who can catch and make shots from every level of the floor with a quick release. that aspect alone makes him a valuable role player. surefire? rarely are players surefire anything, but the likelihood of doug being an exceptional shooter is high.

role players aren't expected to create their own shots.

the t'wolves run curls for k-love. there's one. the pel's and magic ran short curl plays for ryan anderson. there's 2. mavs have short curl plays for dirk. there's 3. running those type of plays isn't about foot speed anyways. it's about timing, execution, the curler being able to read defenses on the fly, knowing the counters and being able to quick release with accuracy on the move. like if the defender goes over the top- corner fade. defender is locking and trailing too tight- stop and go. locking and trailing too loose - tight curl off the screener's hip. how was peja's foot speed? chis mullin? dale ellis? dennis scott? dell curry? how is mike dunleavy's footspeed currently? mike miller, dan majerle, wally szczerbiak, jeff hornacek, chuck person, tracy murray? heck how is steph curry's foot speed compared to his defenders'? he's not exactly losing defenders off of curls because of his straight speed and quickness.

None of those guys are nearly as bad as McDermott on D. Its not even close. And some of those names are mind boggling? Dirk? 7 footer with an elite post game? Jeff horacek, who was more than a shooter and played above average D? You WANT him to do well so you're being optimistic, but the NBA has not seen a tweener forward who cannot play defense succeed in this league.

i answered your questions now you're shifting the goalposts... again. you asked about players without speed being used in curl plays. those guys lacked foot speed and they were used in curl plays. foot speed isn't necessary for floppy sets, or any other sets involving off the ball screens really.

doug has an nba level offensive skill set, a difficult one to defend too. exceptional shooters with quick releases are tough to guard because they only need a sliver of daylight to get off their shots. with that quick release they also have the ability to get off their shots in people's faces (hand down, man down). their ability to shoot in the defender's faces makes their shot fakes that much more effective. that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter. he wasn't quick, strong, explosive and didn't have great size or handle. what he had was the knowledge of how to get open and a quick release with dead eye accuracy. a guy like doug has similar attributes but also has that quick release ability FT line and down with various floaters, push shots, running hooks, etc. then you factor in his footwork, triple threat game with the ability to one legged fade? doug is a very versatile off-the-ball scorer. that's why i think he'll do well, not because i want him to.

he's not "my guy". i have other targets i'd like the bulls to consider because they have mirotic coming (hopefully) and they have other holes to fill (slasher, shot-creator, 4th big). i just find these dismissive posts full of hyperbole and lack of understanding of the game, annoying. people are going out of their way to dismiss his game and they're not doing a good job at it.

[Leslie Forman]

that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter.

I don't know why you bring up Dell Curry, because he was a perfectly acceptable level of athlete. McDermott is clearly going to be a bottom-of-the-barrel type of athlete in the game, which the guys you mentioned simply weren't. I mean, Chris Mullin? That guy used to abuse people off the dribble in his prime. Jeff Hornacek used to play some point guard.

Those guys may not have been great NBA-level athletes, but they were decent enough. When you watch McDermott, even when he scores, he just…looks…so…slow. He looks like he has lead in his feet even when he goes by people, like he's a 6'8" Brad Miller or something.

By the measurements, he might not be much worse an athlete than, say, a 33-year-old Mike Dunleavy, but Dunleavy's got over a decade of experience to rely on. By the time he was slowing down, he was fully used to playing against NBA defenses. McDermott? He's going straight from college to the NBA with that 33-year-old athleticism. He's already behind the ball.

"Slow" is a pretty wide net. "Doug McDermott-slow" is a tiny net with one dude in it.

[ManualRam]

that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter.

I don't know why you bring up Dell Curry, because he was a perfectly acceptable level of athlete. McDermott is clearly going to be a bottom-of-the-barrel type of athlete in the game, which the guys you mentioned simply weren't. I mean, Chris Mullin? That guy used to abuse people off the dribble in his prime. Jeff Hornacek used to play some point guard.

Those guys may not have been great NBA-level athletes, but they were decent enough. When you watch McDermott, even when he scores, he just…looks…so…slow. He looks like he has lead in his feet even when he goes by people, like he's a 6'8" Brad Miller or something.

By the measurements, he might not be much worse an athlete than, say, a 33-year-old Mike Dunleavy, but Dunleavy's got over a decade of experience to rely on. By the time he was slowing down, he was fully used to playing against NBA defenses. McDermott? He's going straight from college to the NBA with that 33-year-old athleticism. He's already behind the ball.

"Slow" is a pretty wide net. "Doug McDermott-slow" is a tiny net with one dude in it.

read the post i was responding to. foot speed is not a requirement for off the ball shooting. that is why i used those examples. nothing more. dell curry was slow, especially for a wing. mullin, even slower for a SF.

great, more hyperbole being used to describe his athleticism. no, he doesn't look like he has lead in his feet. he would not be able to finish cuts and closeouts at the rate that he did if had lead in his feet or moved like brad miller.

[Leslie Forman]

read the post i was responding to. foot speed is not a requirement for off the ball shooting. that is why i used those examples. nothing more. dell curry was slow, especially for a wing. mullin, even slower for a SF.

Athleticism is obviously a requirement, otherwise players could just keep doing it until their bodies disintegrated. Reggie Miller would still be playing then. You need at least a modicum of quickness and no-step hops to be a good off-the-ball guy in this league. When you've got long armed 6'10" dudes sprinting at you, you cannot be slow. McDermott is really, really slow, and he barely jumps on his threes. He is going to have issues at the pro level just getting his shot off, let alone making them at a 60%TS clip.

Even if he miraculously does that, he may be glued to the bench like Fredette for his horrible defense.

[42uptop]

Why is Doug Mcdermott suddenly a surefire role player at the very least? He's not. He cannot create his own shot. He's got the footspeed of a below average PF. When was the last time you saw team running curls for a big on the perimeter? Its beyond stupid.

Shhhhhh can't you see? He shoots 3s and is a smart white big man, he will figure it out just like all those other unatheltic 6'7 white big men did.......like ummmmm.....well there was that one guy in the 50s.

Athleticism doesn't matter. Size doesn't matter. Defense doesn't matter. All McDermott needs is to be drafted by a team desperate enough to run pick and pops with a big man who will be a complete sieve on the other end of the floor. Doesn't that just scream "lottery pick" to you? I can already taste the championship champagne

[ComboGuardCity]

i answered your questions now you're shifting the goalposts... again. you asked about players without speed being used in curl plays. those guys lacked foot speed and they were used in curl plays. foot speed isn't necessary for floppy sets, or any other sets involving off the ball screens really.

doug has an nba level offensive skill set, a difficult one to defend too. exceptional shooters with quick releases are tough to guard because they only need a sliver of daylight to get off their shots. with that quick release they also have the ability to get off their shots in people's faces (hand down, man down). their ability to shoot in the defender's faces makes their shot fakes that much more effective. that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter. he wasn't quick, strong, explosive and didn't have great size or handle. what he had was the knowledge of how to get open and a quick release with dead eye accuracy. a guy like doug has similar attributes but also has that quick release ability FT line and down with various floaters, push shots, running hooks, etc. then you factor in his footwork, triple threat game with the ability to one legged fade? doug is a very versatile off-the-ball scorer. that's why i think he'll do well, not because i want him to.

he's not "my guy". i have other targets i'd like the bulls to consider because they have mirotic coming (hopefully) and they have other holes to fill (slasher, shot-creator, 4th big). i just find these dismissive posts full of hyperbole and lack of understanding of the game, annoying. people are going out of their way to dismiss his game and they're not doing a good job at it.

I'm not moving anything. You described guys who did other things at a high level, with spot up shooting as just one of their skills. What kind of footwork does this guy have that warrants discussion? His "post game" consists of about one dribble and either using his off arm to get to the basket or doing that quick turn around. And that all goes to hell when you put a semi-decent long athlete on him. There is nothing special about his footwork. Doug's a very smart basketball player, but he doesn't have the physical tools to succeed. And comparing him to Dell Curry? Really? For someone who likes to stay away from the hyperbole, Dell Curry is Vince Carter compared to Doug in terms of athleticism.

[ManualRam]

read the post i was responding to. foot speed is not a requirement for off the ball shooting. that is why i used those examples. nothing more. dell curry was slow, especially for a wing. mullin, even slower for a SF.

Athleticism is obviously a requirement, otherwise players could just keep doing it until their bodies disintegrated. Reggie Miller would still be playing then. You need at least a modicum of quickness and no-step hops to be a good off-the-ball guy in this league. When you've got long armed 6'10" dudes sprinting at you, you cannot be slow. McDermott is really, really slow, and he barely jumps on his threes. He is going to have issues at the pro level just getting his shot off, let alone making them at a 60%TS clip.

Even if he miraculously does that, he may be glued to the bench like Fredette for his horrible defense.

no it isn't. not for off the ball screen action. reggie miller couldn't play at an advanced age because his body would break down. even a reggie who lost more than a step could function as an off the ball mover at damn near 40. that example doesn't exactly support your argument.

really, really, really slow? he's slow, but he's not epically slow, which is the picture that you're erroneously trying to paint. he doesn't move like brad miller and he doesn't move like he has lead in his feet. just look at the video on the previous page. get past the shooting section around the 3:44 mark to about 7:00. i don't see a guy who moves like brad miller. i doubt DX uses camera tricks either, so if you still think he moves like a 6'8 brad miller after watching that, then you're lying to yourself to support your silly exaggerations.

and no, elevation isn't needed for those situations. again, how were the curry's elevation? mullin, person, mike miller, wally? quick release can mitigate the need for elevation. and from a standstill, higher elevation isn't even recommended for a 3 ball.

[ManualRam]

i answered your questions now you're shifting the goalposts... again. you asked about players without speed being used in curl plays. those guys lacked foot speed and they were used in curl plays. foot speed isn't necessary for floppy sets, or any other sets involving off the ball screens really.

doug has an nba level offensive skill set, a difficult one to defend too. exceptional shooters with quick releases are tough to guard because they only need a sliver of daylight to get off their shots. with that quick release they also have the ability to get off their shots in people's faces (hand down, man down). their ability to shoot in the defender's faces makes their shot fakes that much more effective. that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter. he wasn't quick, strong, explosive and didn't have great size or handle. what he had was the knowledge of how to get open and a quick release with dead eye accuracy. a guy like doug has similar attributes but also has that quick release ability FT line and down with various floaters, push shots, running hooks, etc. then you factor in his footwork, triple threat game with the ability to one legged fade? doug is a very versatile off-the-ball scorer. that's why i think he'll do well, not because i want him to.

he's not "my guy". i have other targets i'd like the bulls to consider because they have mirotic coming (hopefully) and they have other holes to fill (slasher, shot-creator, 4th big). i just find these dismissive posts full of hyperbole and lack of understanding of the game, annoying. people are going out of their way to dismiss his game and they're not doing a good job at it.

I'm not moving anything. You described guys who did other things at a high level, with spot up shooting as just one of their skills. What kind of footwork does this guy have that warrants discussion? His "post game" consists of about one dribble and either using his off arm to get to the basket or doing that quick turn around. And that all goes to hell when you put a semi-decent long athlete on him. There is nothing special about his footwork. Doug's a very smart basketball player, but he doesn't have the physical tools to succeed. And comparing him to Dell Curry? Really? For someone who likes to stay away from the hyperbole, Dell Curry is Vince Carter compared to Doug in terms of athleticism.

BS. thats exactly what you did. you asked about players being used in curl action with poor foot speed. i answered you with examples who did that successfully while lacking foot speed. then i explained why foot speed isn't necessary for that type of action.

no, his post game consists of quick drop steps and spin moves, with triple threat and one legged fade action. defenders have to respect that fade and quick release, which opens the opportunity for shot fake step throughs. the dx scouting report highlights his post game as well, especially his spin move. take a look. maybe you forgot, but before doug expanded his game to the perimeter, he was strictly a post player and an effective, fundamentally sound one too.

dell curry was not a good athlete at all. good counter with even more exaggeration.

[Leslie Forman]

no it isn't. not for off the ball screen action. reggie miller couldn't play at an advanced age because his body would break down. even a reggie who lost more than step could function as an off the ball mover at damn near 40. that example doesn't exactly support your argument.

If athleticism was really as unimportant as you claim, people wouldn't have to stop when they're 40, they'd just keep going like they were golfers.

[ManualRam]

no it isn't. not for off the ball screen action. reggie miller couldn't play at an advanced age because his body would break down. even a reggie who lost more than step could function as an off the ball mover at damn near 40. that example doesn't exactly support your argument.

If athleticism was really as unimportant as you claim, people wouldn't have to stop when they're 40, they'd just keep going like they were golfers.

im just saying that it is not required for off the ball screen action. that stuff you see every bulls' game with dunleavy getting clean looks is much less about foot speed than it is about timing, knowledge and execution. unathletic dunleavy isn't simply outrunning defenders.

40 y/o's don't play because their bodies are physically unable to withstand an nba schedule.

[ComboGuardCity]

i answered your questions now you're shifting the goalposts... again. you asked about players without speed being used in curl plays. those guys lacked foot speed and they were used in curl plays. foot speed isn't necessary for floppy sets, or any other sets involving off the ball screens really.

doug has an nba level offensive skill set, a difficult one to defend too. exceptional shooters with quick releases are tough to guard because they only need a sliver of daylight to get off their shots. with that quick release they also have the ability to get off their shots in people's faces (hand down, man down). their ability to shoot in the defender's faces makes their shot fakes that much more effective. that's what made a guy like dell curry an exceptional shooter. he wasn't quick, strong, explosive and didn't have great size or handle. what he had was the knowledge of how to get open and a quick release with dead eye accuracy. a guy like doug has similar attributes but also has that quick release ability FT line and down with various floaters, push shots, running hooks, etc. then you factor in his footwork, triple threat game with the ability to one legged fade? doug is a very versatile off-the-ball scorer. that's why i think he'll do well, not because i want him to.

he's not "my guy". i have other targets i'd like the bulls to consider because they have mirotic coming (hopefully) and they have other holes to fill (slasher, shot-creator, 4th big). i just find these dismissive posts full of hyperbole and lack of understanding of the game, annoying. people are going out of their way to dismiss his game and they're not doing a good job at it.

I'm not moving anything. You described guys who did other things at a high level, with spot up shooting as just one of their skills. What kind of footwork does this guy have that warrants discussion? His "post game" consists of about one dribble and either using his off arm to get to the basket or doing that quick turn around. And that all goes to hell when you put a semi-decent long athlete on him. There is nothing special about his footwork. Doug's a very smart basketball player, but he doesn't have the physical tools to succeed. And comparing him to Dell Curry? Really? For someone who likes to stay away from the hyperbole, Dell Curry is Vince Carter compared to Doug in terms of athleticism.

BS. thats exactly what you did. you asked about players being used in curl action with poor foot speed. i answered you with examples who did that successfully while lacking foot speed. then i explained why foot speed isn't necessary for that type of action.

no, his post game consists of quick drop steps and spin moves, with triple threat and one legged fade action. defenders have to respect that fade and quick release, which opens the opportunity for shot fake step throughs. the dx scouting report highlights his post game as well, especially his spin move. take a look.

dell curry was not a good athlete at all. good counter with even more exaggeration.

It all makes sense now. You equate athletciscm to jumping in the air. Speed, lateral movement, and body all encompass athleticism. You just don't understand how it works. I remember you saying Drummond is going to bust and would be lucky to be pre-breakout DeAndre Jordan. Why? Because you underrate athleticism and fail to evaluate talent based on the NBA game, not the college game. I'm through responding to you because you'll just come back with 3 different names for a turn around jumper.

[ManualRam]

I'm not moving anything. You described guys who did other things at a high level, with spot up shooting as just one of their skills. What kind of footwork does this guy have that warrants discussion? His "post game" consists of about one dribble and either using his off arm to get to the basket or doing that quick turn around. And that all goes to hell when you put a semi-decent long athlete on him. There is nothing special about his footwork. Doug's a very smart basketball player, but he doesn't have the physical tools to succeed. And comparing him to Dell Curry? Really? For someone who likes to stay away from the hyperbole, Dell Curry is Vince Carter compared to Doug in terms of athleticism.

BS. thats exactly what you did. you asked about players being used in curl action with poor foot speed. i answered you with examples who did that successfully while lacking foot speed. then i explained why foot speed isn't necessary for that type of action.

no, his post game consists of quick drop steps and spin moves, with triple threat and one legged fade action. defenders have to respect that fade and quick release, which opens the opportunity for shot fake step throughs. the dx scouting report highlights his post game as well, especially his spin move. take a look.

dell curry was not a good athlete at all. good counter with even more exaggeration.

It all makes sense now. You equate athletciscm to jumping in the air. Speed, lateral movement, and body all encompass athleticism. You just don't understand how it works. I remember you saying Drummond is going to bust and would be lucky to be pre-breakout DeAndre Jordan. Why? Because you underrate athleticism and fail to evaluate talent based on the NBA game, not the college game. I'm through responding to you because you'll just come back with 3 different names for a turn around jumper.

not really a response to my post, but ok.
peace

[CBB_Fan]

There are unathletic players at every position that have succeeded in the league. Steve Kerr, Bill Sharman, Steve Nash, Glen Rice, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Wes Unseld, Zach Randolph, Elvin Hayes, Robert Parrish, and plenty more. I'm not saying Doug McDermott is any of those players, just that high skill/low athleticism players have a place in the league. In particular, Reggie Miller made a living using almost the exact same tactics McDermott is using in college (curling off screens and shooting 3PTs).