Luka Doncic

[narcolepsy]

And he wont be able to play pick and roll in NBA where the court is wider and he can dribble after first step because?

[reanimator]

I've never said he can't play PnR but I have dozens of post ITT as to why I don't think he'll be as effective against longer, quicker athletes.

[SportsGuy8]

Yes and you keep ignoring counter-arguments telling you that, despite the supreme athletes, it's actually a lot easier to beat your man in the NBA, because the rules highly benefit offensive players. I don't think you realize just how much easier it is to penetrate when you're allowed to actually make a step before dribbling the ball and after you do that, the defenders cannot even properly hand-check you. Not even mentioning the bigger court, leading to much more space.

Just ask PRIME Iverson and PRIME Rose, two of the absolute best in history at this, how "easy" it was for them to penetrate playing at the Olympics/World Champs.

Of course people are going to accuse you of either trolling or not knowing much about FIBA basketball, when you keep repeating that it's harder to penetrate in the NBA, when the truth is the exact opposite ... This isn't even a debate for anyone that watches both NBA and FIBA basketball.

[burek3]

RMB vs Barca was a frantic game indeed. Referees almost f'ing everything up with bad decisions against both teams all the time (Liga endesa, I thought you had better referees).

Doncic wasn't really scoring, but did all other things very nicely. Rebounding, passing and he surprised me with good defense. Unfortunately, had one clutch turnover, but so did everyone else (Llull, Randolph,....) on the floor for RMB in last few offenses.

Llull is... I don't know how to interpret properly in english language. We call that type of player "indijanac". When watching him play, you just scratch your head thinking "what the f is this guy doing". No head, no tail.

[Kolkmania]

Yes and you keep ignoring counter-arguments telling you that, despite the supreme athletes, it's actually a lot easier to beat your man in the NBA, because the rules highly benefit offensive players. I don't think you realize just how much easier it is to penetrate when you're allowed to actually make a step before dribbling the ball and after you do that, the defenders cannot even properly hand-check you. Not even mentioning the bigger court, leading to much more space.

Just ask PRIME Iverson and PRIME Rose, two of the absolute best in history at this, how "easy" it was for them to penetrate playing at the Olympics/World Champs.

Of course people are going to accuse you of either trolling or not knowing much about FIBA basketball, when you keep repeating that it's harder to penetrate in the NBA, when the truth is the exact opposite ... This isn't even a debate for anyone that watches both NBA and FIBA basketball.

In theory. Sergio Rodriguez faces the same advantages in the NBA and isn't penetrating the defense consistently either. The lack of quickness argument is a legit one imo. Could he improve his burst? Sure, but I don't think he will in Europe since it's simply not necessary for him, because he's already contributing due to his height advantages, etc.

Basketball in Europe and the NBA are almost entirely different games for perimeter players, if Doncic wants to fully maximize his potential he should already start to focus on this transition. Of course this won't happen since Real Madrid is too important, but an additional wasted development year regarding his athelticism/quickness could hold him back in the long run.

[Derento]

How much time does Doncic have to train from the end of his club season and euro basket?
Its pretty insane for someone his age to play this much high level basketball over a span of a 1 1/2 years.

[Derento]

I've been looking at Doncic's statistics compared to other nba wings and guards before they got drafted and it's very interesting.

[Derento]

He has a very similar statistical profile to Gordon Hayward, Batum, Middleton.
Accept he is a extreme outlier in his passing compared to this group.
Comparable to point guards like Jrue Holiday,Lowry and other lead guards.
Finally his rebound rate for a guard/wing is great.
Comparable to jump shooting big men and great rebounding wings.
Finally he's 3 point percentage and FT percentage shape up to being a good shooter.

[SportsGuy8]

Yes and you keep ignoring counter-arguments telling you that, despite the supreme athletes, it's actually a lot easier to beat your man in the NBA, because the rules highly benefit offensive players. I don't think you realize just how much easier it is to penetrate when you're allowed to actually make a step before dribbling the ball and after you do that, the defenders cannot even properly hand-check you. Not even mentioning the bigger court, leading to much more space.

Just ask PRIME Iverson and PRIME Rose, two of the absolute best in history at this, how "easy" it was for them to penetrate playing at the Olympics/World Champs.

Of course people are going to accuse you of either trolling or not knowing much about FIBA basketball, when you keep repeating that it's harder to penetrate in the NBA, when the truth is the exact opposite ... This isn't even a debate for anyone that watches both NBA and FIBA basketball.

In theory. Sergio Rodriguez faces the same advantages in the NBA and isn't penetrating the defense consistently either. The lack of quickness argument is a legit one imo. Could he improve his burst? Sure, but I don't think he will in Europe since it's simply not necessary for him, because he's already contributing due to his height advantages, etc.

Basketball in Europe and the NBA are almost entirely different games for perimeter players, if Doncic wants to fully maximize his potential he should already start to focus on this transition. Of course this won't happen since Real Madrid is too important, but an additional wasted development year regarding his athelticism/quickness could hold him back in the long run.

Sergio doesn't really have that many problems with getting by his defender, he has problems with actually FINISHING his penetrations.

Please note that the key point is that it's easier to GET BY your defender in the NBA, not that it's easier to actually finish your penetrations. As for finishing, that's going to be a lot easier for Doncic than it is for Sergio, due to sheer strength and size alone.

Sergio also almost never starts his penetrations from a stand-still position, so he doesn't benefit from that first step advantage either.

P.s.: Sergio even has a couple countrymen that benefited heavily from all of this - Rubio and Calderon. It's one of the key things (besides open court and faster pace) that enabled them to be substantially better NBA players than FIBA players.

[Kolkmania]

Yes and you keep ignoring counter-arguments telling you that, despite the supreme athletes, it's actually a lot easier to beat your man in the NBA, because the rules highly benefit offensive players. I don't think you realize just how much easier it is to penetrate when you're allowed to actually make a step before dribbling the ball and after you do that, the defenders cannot even properly hand-check you. Not even mentioning the bigger court, leading to much more space.

Just ask PRIME Iverson and PRIME Rose, two of the absolute best in history at this, how "easy" it was for them to penetrate playing at the Olympics/World Champs.

Of course people are going to accuse you of either trolling or not knowing much about FIBA basketball, when you keep repeating that it's harder to penetrate in the NBA, when the truth is the exact opposite ... This isn't even a debate for anyone that watches both NBA and FIBA basketball.

In theory. Sergio Rodriguez faces the same advantages in the NBA and isn't penetrating the defense consistently either. The lack of quickness argument is a legit one imo. Could he improve his burst? Sure, but I don't think he will in Europe since it's simply not necessary for him, because he's already contributing due to his height advantages, etc.

Basketball in Europe and the NBA are almost entirely different games for perimeter players, if Doncic wants to fully maximize his potential he should already start to focus on this transition. Of course this won't happen since Real Madrid is too important, but an additional wasted development year regarding his athelticism/quickness could hold him back in the long run.

Sergio doesn't really have that many problems with getting by his defender, he has problems with actually FINISHING his penetrations.

Please note that the key point is that it's easier to GET BY your defender in the NBA, not that it's easier to actually finish your penetrations. As for finishing, that's going to be a lot easier for Doncic than it is for Sergio, due to sheer strength and size alone.

Sergio also almost never starts his penetrations from a stand-still position, so he doesn't benefit from that first step advantage either.

P.s.: Sergio even has a couple countrymen that benefited heavily from all of this - Rubio and Calderon. It's one of the key things (besides open court and faster pace) that enabled them to be substantially better NBA players than FIBA players.

I've watched nearly every single minute of Sergio this season and he does struggle with penetrating the defense. Finishing is an additional problem, but without a screen he needs every move in his arsenal to get past an average perimeter defender.

[Derento]

He is a very versatile player. You can put him at lead guard and run the pick and roll. Push the pace and get others involved.
Put him on the wing so he can spot up. Put in the mid post to create inside. His fit on the NBA court depends on his teammates and what role and style of play the coach wants for him. His PPP in the pick and roll is incredible.

[SportsGuy8]

In theory. Sergio Rodriguez faces the same advantages in the NBA and isn't penetrating the defense consistently either. The lack of quickness argument is a legit one imo. Could he improve his burst? Sure, but I don't think he will in Europe since it's simply not necessary for him, because he's already contributing due to his height advantages, etc.

Basketball in Europe and the NBA are almost entirely different games for perimeter players, if Doncic wants to fully maximize his potential he should already start to focus on this transition. Of course this won't happen since Real Madrid is too important, but an additional wasted development year regarding his athelticism/quickness could hold him back in the long run.

Sergio doesn't really have that many problems with getting by his defender, he has problems with actually FINISHING his penetrations.

Please note that the key point is that it's easier to GET BY your defender in the NBA, not that it's easier to actually finish your penetrations. As for finishing, that's going to be a lot easier for Doncic than it is for Sergio, due to sheer strength and size alone.

Sergio also almost never starts his penetrations from a stand-still position, so he doesn't benefit from that first step advantage either.

P.s.: Sergio even has a couple countrymen that benefited heavily from all of this - Rubio and Calderon. It's one of the key things (besides open court and faster pace) that enabled them to be substantially better NBA players than FIBA players.

I've watched nearly every single minute of Sergio this season and he does struggle with penetrating the defense. Finishing is an additional problem, but without a screen he needs every move in his arsenal to get past an average perimeter defender.

But he also needed screens in Europe ... I didn't really watch many of Real games when Sergio was there, but from what I saw, he mostly produced either in transition, or via various screens, which is pretty much the same as in the NBA. Then occasionally there was a successful individual penetration here and there.

I do remember him beating his man on several occasions in the NBA, though, from when he was a Knick.

Anyways, the point is that it's not more difficult for him to do it in the NBA. Finishing is another story, though ...

[Mirotic12]

Doncic will be best from the midpost, not ballscreens from the top in the NBA.

What makes you say that when he's the most effective when playing from the top of the key.

*in euroleague* he is most effective when playing from the top of the key.

Yes and you keep ignoring counter-arguments telling you that, despite the supreme athletes, it's actually a lot easier to beat your man in the NBA, because the rules highly benefit offensive players. I don't think you realize just how much easier it is to penetrate when you're allowed to actually make a step before dribbling the ball and after you do that, the defenders cannot even properly hand-check you. Not even mentioning the bigger court, leading to much more space.

Just ask PRIME Iverson and PRIME Rose, two of the absolute best in history at this, how "easy" it was for them to penetrate playing at the Olympics/World Champs.

Of course people are going to accuse you of either trolling or not knowing much about FIBA basketball, when you keep repeating that it's harder to penetrate in the NBA, when the truth is the exact opposite ... This isn't even a debate for anyone that watches both NBA and FIBA basketball.

In theory. Sergio Rodriguez faces the same advantages in the NBA and isn't penetrating the defense consistently either. The lack of quickness argument is a legit one imo. Could he improve his burst? Sure, but I don't think he will in Europe since it's simply not necessary for him, because he's already contributing due to his height advantages, etc.

Basketball in Europe and the NBA are almost entirely different games for perimeter players, if Doncic wants to fully maximize his potential he should already start to focus on this transition. Of course this won't happen since Real Madrid is too important, but an additional wasted development year regarding his athelticism/quickness could hold him back in the long run.

It's a simple fact that it's easier to beat people off the dribble in the NBA than in the EuroLeague.

1. NBA has no real zone defense (it only has a fake so-called "psuedo-zone"). EuroLeague allows real zones.

2. NBA does not allow hand checking. EuroLeague does.

3. NBA has the defensive 3 seconds rule (meaning paint defense and rim defense are weakened by design). EuroLeague does not have the defensive 3 seconds rule. This combined with the true zone defense, means that in EuroLeague, most times 3 defenders are around the paint area, with almost always two 6-10 or taller guys being camped in the paint. While in the NBA, the lane and rim area is often unguarded and open.

4. NBA allows the offensive player to impede into the defender's space on the court, initiate the contact, and when contact is drawn by the offensive player that also initiated it, NBA considers that to be a foul on the defender. In EuroLeague, that is 5/10 times a no-call, and 5/10 times an offensive foul. It's basically almost never a foul on the defense.

5. NBA runs a very high pick and roll game, and because of the defensive rules, the traps are very weak. This combined with a bigger court than in FIBA rules, provides all kinds of space for players operating in the pick and roll. In EuroLeague, any really good guard at pick and roll is going to be given a hard trap every single time, and there is hardly any spacing offensively. The picks also can't be run as high as they are in the NBA, because of a smaller court, a closer 3 point line, and a true zone defense being allowed, which makes it much harder to actually execute the pick and roll.

6. NBA refs simply allow much less physical contact than the EuroLeague refs do. NBA wants an offensive scoring league. EuroLeague is on the other hand, very physical and defensive oriented. For most EuroLeague players, it's really hard to drive into the lane area and draw a foul from a referee, both because of the rules differences in what is considered a foul, and because the EuroLeague refs simply allow more contact than NBA refs do.

No need to doubt it..........you can even see interviews with Ricky Rubio and Sonny Weems where they talk about this.

I've read the same types of comments from numerous other players that played in both EuroLeague and NBA. But you don't even have to read about it, and doubt it was real, or it was in context, or translated wrong or whatever. You can see the video interviews, where two guys that played in rotations in NBA and EuroLeague just flat out said it.

This is a common description by players that played in both leagues. I remember reading an interview with Pablo Prigioni just recently (I can't find it), but where he said (paraphrasing) that it's easier to play in the NBA if you are a ball handling pick and roll guard, because the rules and bigger court basically automatically put the defense at a built in disadvantage every time, while in EuroLeague, you really have to be precise in execution every time to get points.

Milos Teodosic also said something similar recently in an interview I read, where they asked him if he could play in the NBA, and he said from the several NBA versus EuroLeague games that he played, that generally the defense in NBA is easier to score on because of the rules and less physical contact allowed, and that it's basically easier to play offense for a guard that has a good handle and shot in the NBA than it is in EuroLeague.

Here are Rubio and Weems explaining it pretty clearly.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Mirotic12]

double post

[reanimator]

I could care less about the rules when the tier of athlete/physical specimen is multiple tiers higher. If what you were saying was true then Euro guards should dominate the NBA.

[Prez]

All that stuff about rules and officiating goes out the window when you consider the massive talent difference of the players. NBA competition is on a totally different level than Euroleague. It's why Euroleague legends like Vassilis Spanoulis were bonafide scrubs against the big boys in the NBA. Same goes for a Euroleague MVP in Sergio Rodriguez. Also on the other end, why an NBA scrub in the 400s in scoring like Shane Larkin is hovering around top 15 in Euroleague scoring. Doncic is an outstanding prospect but there is plenty of reason to wonder how his game will translate against the vastly better NBA competition.

[SportsGuy8]

I could care less about the rules when the tier of athlete/physical specimen is multiple tiers higher. If what you were saying was true then Euro guards should dominate the NBA.

You saying that Euros should then dominate the NBA clearly shows that you just don't really watch much FIBA basketball ... Penetrations in half-court sets are extremely rare there, especially when compared to the NBA. So in most cases, European players go from being almost unable to go by any defender without serious help (via screens), to at least occasionally be able to do it in the NBA.

Many NBA teams basically base their whole systems on penetrations, because it's so easy to do it. If Doncic is already able to at least OCCASIONALLY do it in Europe, he really shouldn't have problems with it in the NBA.

Why else do you think NBA is penetration based and FIBA is basically the exact opposite in this regard? Your thoughts simply defy logic.

Oh, everything Mirotic just wrote is true.

P.s.:

Watch on YouTube

[SportsGuy8]

All that stuff about rules and officiating goes out the window when you consider the massive talent difference of the players. NBA competition is on a totally different level than Euroleague. It's why Euroleague legends like Vassilis Spanoulis were bonafide scrubs against the big boys in the NBA. Same goes for a Euroleague MVP in Sergio Rodriguez. Also on the other end, why an NBA scrub in the 400s in scoring like Shane Larkin is hovering around top 15 in Euroleague scoring. Doncic is an outstanding prospect but there is plenty of reason to wonder how his game will translate against the vastly better NBA competition.

Nobody is denying that the NBA is superior, but you're highly exaggerating it. If the NBA was truly that superior, then Euroleague teams wouldn't at least be competitive in actual games against them.

It's possible to make a similar type of argument you're making, about how Rubio was a scrub when he played for Barca, but he's a decent starter in the NBA, lately even playing close to an All-Star level. Or how Calderon was also basically a better NBA player.

Or how much PRIME Iverson and Rose struggled under FIBA rules, not even being half of what they were in the NBA ...

See, for every player like Spanoulis, who ran home to his mommy before getting a real chance, we also have players supporting the other side.

[SportsGuy8]

Oh, btw., make no mistake, all those things that are going to enable Doncic to penetrate more easily in the NBA, are also the same things that are going to hurt him in a big way defensively.

Because of the rules it's so much harder to properly defend in the NBA, you really have to be an elite athlete ... Defenders are simply at such an unbelievable disadvantage in the NBA, disadvantage that only elite athletes are able to SOMEWHAT overcome.

[Bob8]

I could care less about the rules when the tier of athlete/physical specimen is multiple tiers higher. If what you were saying was true then Euro guards should dominate the NBA.

The argument is not that Euro guards are better than Nba, but to explain, why Doncic has sometimes problem to beat opponents off the dribble or finish at the rim. Don't you think if almost nobody can do it on regular basis in Euroleague, it's hard to aspect 18 years kid, who is still growing and his body still developing, will do it? If Doncic could do everything what some people expect from him, he would have really been better prospect than LeBron.