Okafor or Towns? Which center is the better pick?

[Marcus]

what goes into blocking a shot? there's height, wingspan, leaping ability, reaction times and defensive positioning... 4 out of those 5 things also matter on the other end of the court....

it's not a 1-1 relationship.... Player A blocks 5 shots a game... that doesn't automatically make him a 20ppg scorer... but i bet you or anyone else could guess with surprising accuracy what he's like on the offensive end... he's probably a 7fter... or an equivalent standing reach...he probably plays on the low block or close to the paint.... that's just from one number....

what that in mind... yes... it also doesn't tell you how effective they are on offense.. that much is true... but if you were to ask the question... is towns more similar to duncan or tyler hansbrough?

the answer to that question is why blks is important...

didn't ask what goes into blocking a shot or why its important. I know what goes into blocking a shot and why its important. I asked what block numbers and defensive acumen have to do with a player's offense.

you said Karl had the best offense since Timmy (if not for Jah). I countered with Cousins had better offense. you answered with block numbers which you just said one has nothing to do with the other.

who the hell is comparing Towns to Hansbrough? why would someone make that comparison? would anyone who's seen all 3 players really need block numbers to see Towns is closer to Duncan than he is to Hansbrough?

if I showed you block numbers for player A and never showed you any film or stats for what they do on offense would you be able to tell me what player A is capable of on offense? no. one has nothing to do with the other. Even your example is speculation. That could range from Wilt to Bill Russell to Serge to Ant Davis to Noel. All score in different ways if they score at all in some cases.

Scrambling.

[E-Balla]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym5T8CXQCF0[/youtube]

Am I completely crazy in seeing a bit of Tim Duncan in this guy's play?

The length, quickness, poise, grounded playing style, boring but effective hookshots, the stoic perseverance going after his own misses...

If we want to be less blasphemous I also see Andrew Bynum... although Bynum's biggest problems were his health and most of all his mindset, and so far Towns' personality looks closer to Duncan's. If you've listened to him speak, and what others have to say about him, he seems to have a rare level of maturity for someone this young and talented.

This is a 7'0, 250 lbs freshman (and this is important, we shouldn't forget he's a freshman) center who looks the part, whose playing stye translates to the NBA, and who averages 19, 13 and 4.5 per 40 on 56% shooting and 82% free throw shooting playing for an undefeated team.

I hesitate to call him a sure thing if healthy, but... I'm pretty confident. Not QUITE as confident as I was with Davis, but possibly a bit more than I was with Embiid although his ceiling may be lower.

I have a feeling that if he ends up on the Knicks or Lakers, there will soon be conspiracy theories about how he ended up there.

Everything you said I feel the same way about Towns.

Tim Duncan's college stats and Towns college stats aren't that different at all too.

Tim Duncan is such a tough comparison because Duncan is basically a top 5-8 player of all time with all his accolades and accomplishments and longevity. But the personality, posture, body type, movement, style of play....Towns fits Duncan. I do wonder how much footage Towns has seen of Duncan and try to emulate his game. I do feel like it's a reach saying Towns has MVP potential yet because I've only seen him play 23 games in total, reviewed those games and watched some detailed scouting reports with those games. Small sample size for me, but I am willing to bet money Towns can produce in the league and surprise people on what he can do offensively.

Actually his most common comparison (Al Horford) is basically Tim Duncan light for the Hawks. I would say he compares well to Tim if he had a reliable post game and prior to his senior year of high school I thought he was the next Tim Duncan (I remember posting on here about how he's the next great because he reminded me of Tim).

My thoughts at the moment.

There may not be a 19 year old player Okafor's size that has ever been as skilled on offense. He would be the most skilled offensive player his size in the the NBA on day 1. He has a smoothness/dexterity that when coupled with his improvisation and feel the results are remarkable. The concerns on defense are real though. People have stated many of his shortcomings being due to effort. There definitely is a lack of effort at times, no doubt about it but regardless of effort the problems on defense are real. He is not going to be a poor defender for his entire tenure in the NBA.

Towns on the other hand is undoubtedly a better defender but his defensive abilities may be overblown a bit. He also will never sniff what Okafor is capable of on offense.

Ultimately you have to go Okafor here in my opinion regardless of any short comings on defense.

I agree about Okafor's offense inside. But Okafor hasn't shown any game outside of 10 feet and he has a major problem hitting free throws right. That doesn't mean he'll always been like that. He can improve on FTs and develop a jumper. Everyone is going to say "He doesn't need to, just throw it to him down low and it's a free bucket." Right. But I feel in the NBA they will not always be able to feed Okafor downlow and it'll just make his game much better in the NBA if he can step out and hit a jumpshot. All the great bigs had some range on their jumper. Ewing had a timeless jumper.
Towns offense is a lot better than Okafor's defense.

This is some very one sided cherry picking. You mention all bigs having outside games but fail to mention their outside games coming into the league. Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem, and Shaq -- you know probably the four best center scorers ever -- had no game outside of 10 feet in college. Hakeem is the strangest offensive comparison (his last year in college he had a 68/00/53 shooting split and Jahlil has a 68/00/52 split) as most remember him as a finished product and don't remember young Hakeem who only was a monster in the paint.

All of those guys outside of Wilt and Shaq learned so why couldn't Jahlil? And Shaq and Wilt never chose to learn and still dominated. Towns' defense is way better than Okaforcs defense but if we are talking college ball Jahlil's offense alone is more impactful than Towns' game on both sides of the ball.

[E-Balla]

Maybe they are positive when he's on the court than off but they are not as good with him... Its complicated with so many missing time over there.... The defense when Kanter is on the court would make the the thunder the leagues worst.... And no its not just me saying that...

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/we-ne ... y-thunder/

And no okafors defense is not as bad as kanters but its closer to Kanter than towns....

No that's not it. They probably wrote all of those before Kanter just started playing very well (over the last 6 he's averaged 20/12 shooting 57% from the field and they are 4-2... Not even counting today). The defense with Kanter makes the team one of the leagues worst but the offense is the league's best with him on the floor.

And if you think Okafor is closer to Kanter (one of the leagues worst defenders) than Towns you are twisted on your perception of one of those guys on that end.

Yes steals are important....
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the ... nba-steal/

Its not a new concept.... But just like with taking any one number there's a lot of noise.... Take briante weber of vcu... He had an astronomical steal rate... He's hurt which is a shame but all his other numbers are not what you would call a great prospect...

If you were to take steals as the sole predictor... A lot of guards would start looking pretty good.... That's why you also have to adjust for position.... And steals while a valuable indicator for a big man is just not as important as blocks are...

Greg monroe had a pretty good steal rate at georgetown..... And also mediocre block rates.. Tim Duncan had mediocre steal rates but elite block rates... You can guess who is better on defense.... That's just one example...

Steals ARE better for bigmen. For example in college steals said Nerlens Noel is the best defensive prospect since 1990 and now we look and see he is possibly the best defensive rookie since 1990.

Steals don't necessarily tell who's the best defender but its a pretty good laugh test (for players on teams that don't run some 24/7) on good players on either end. And looking at the top guys in blocks each year there's a ton of scrubs at the top. Moreso than steals. Guys like Jarvis Varnado and Hasheem Thabeet standout way ahead on the pack in blocks and they stink on ice.

[DickGrayson]

Kareem had game outside of 10 feet. Same with Hakeem, Hakeem had a good jumpshot.

Wilt and Shaq are the only bigs who dominated throughout their era without possessing a jumpshot.
If we have to go to great lengths to compare Okafor and use Wilt and Shaq, then maybe Okafor does need to work on his game outside of 10 feet. Especially since he'll never be as athletic as Wilt or Shaq, he won't dominate the NBA like they did.

https://vine.co/v/OYO2q0rK55V

Okafor isn't finished, dude is extremely young. He can be Hakeem and develop his jumper.

and DUKE is a good offensive team with or without Okafor. They have great shooters and even have good production when he's benched.

[E-Balla]

Kareem had game outside of 10 feet. Same with Hakeem, Hakeem had a good jumpshot.

Not when they were young. Hakeem shot 53% from the freethrow line his last year in Houston and Kareem didn't develop that 15 foot J until after he won that first ring and he rarely used it before he got old.

This is young Hakeem:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgrqJnX7VwY[/youtube]

You can see why people say Jahlil reminds them of Hakeem in the post now can't you? And he improved a ton in his rookie season from his junior year of college.

Kareem on the other hand was so dominant inside they banned the freaking dunk. He couldn't shoot when he was young I've seen a ton of full games from his rookie season and second season (mostly his second season) and he only operated within 10 feet before he got older.

Wilt and Shaq are the only bigs who dominated throughout their era without possessing a jumpshot.
If we have to go to great lengths to compare Okafor and use Wilt and Shaq, then maybe Okafor does need to work on his game outside of 10 feet. Especially since he'll never be as athletic as Wilt or Shaq, he won't dominate the NBA like they did.

https://vine.co/v/OYO2q0rK55V

Okafor isn't finished, dude is extremely young. He can be Hakeem and develop his jumper.

and DUKE is a good offensive team with or without Okafor. They have great shooters and even have good production when he's benched.

Okafor isn't finished but what he already has as a base is better than anyone else ever at his age aside from Kareem and maybe Tim Duncan.

And you say Duke is a good offense without Jahlil but you probably don't realize exactly how efficient his touches are. Let's be serious their team outside of him is a ton of guys best served as complimentary pieces and without him they'd flounder especially with their lack of size.

[djphan]

didn't ask what goes into blocking a shot or why its important. I know what goes into blocking a shot and why its important. I asked what block numbers and defensive acumen have to do with a player's offense.

you said Karl had the best offense since Timmy (if not for Jah). I countered with Cousins had better offense. you answered with block numbers which you just said one has nothing to do with the other.

who the hell is comparing Towns to Hansbrough? why would someone make that comparison? would anyone who's seen all 3 players really need block numbers to see Towns is closer to Duncan than he is to Hansbrough?

if I showed you block numbers for player A and never showed you any film or stats for what they do on offense would you be able to tell me what player A is capable of on offense? no. one has nothing to do with the other. Even your example is speculation. That could range from Wilt to Bill Russell to Serge to Ant Davis to Noel. All score in different ways if they score at all in some cases.

Scrambling.

i literally answered all your questions in my post you quoted...

[djphan]

No that's not it. They probably wrote all of those before Kanter just started playing very well (over the last 6 he's averaged 20/12 shooting 57% from the field and they are 4-2... Not even counting today). The defense with Kanter makes the team one of the leagues worst but the offense is the league's best with him on the floor.

the article was dated 3/20....

And if you think Okafor is closer to Kanter (one of the leagues worst defenders) than Towns you are twisted on your perception of one of those guys on that end.

i don't make this stuff up from no where... i just read the numbers and i watch games to see why it's the case.. with okafor... he consistently doesn't contest and he's consistently late reacting... all the excuses in the world cannot hide this fact.. and it's going to be very evident once he hits the pros...

Steals ARE better for bigmen. For example in college steals said Nerlens Noel is the best defensive prospect since 1990 and now we look and see he is possibly the best defensive rookie since 1990.

Steals don't necessarily tell who's the best defender but its a pretty good laugh test (for players on teams that don't run some 24/7) on good players on either end. And looking at the top guys in blocks each year there's a ton of scrubs at the top. Moreso than steals. Guys like Jarvis Varnado and Hasheem Thabeet standout way ahead on the pack in blocks and they stink on ice.

like i said .. taking ONE number out of the box score and trying to attribute anything to that will result in a lot of noise... that is why in most good models you take a variety of factors... i have never contended that blocks is the end all be all ... but for centers it is important... what else is important? scoring in volume and efficiency and rebounding.... towns and okafor predictably are far apart in some of those areas.... towns just passes the offensive thresholds that lead to success in the pros while okafor fails on the defensive side.... that's all i'm highlighting...

steals is also a very important factor and any model that doesn't factor that in across positions it's probably a bad one... but you have to make adjustments... joakim noah was also like nerlens with very high steal rates.... and they could be very similar type of players... but it's hard to argue that you would pick noah over a guy like duncan or mourning or mutumbo....

[E-Balla]

No that's not it. They probably wrote all of those before Kanter just started playing very well (over the last 6 he's averaged 20/12 shooting 57% from the field and they are 4-2... Not even counting today). The defense with Kanter makes the team one of the leagues worst but the offense is the league's best with him on the floor.

the article was dated 3/20....

Than even worse: they're telling half truths. I'd the defense terrible? Yes. Is the offense super good? Yes. Its a small sample for now and I'd expect the defense performs better and the offense worse as the season goes on. He's bad but like I said he helps the team.

And if you think Okafor is closer to Kanter (one of the leagues worst defenders) than Towns you are twisted on your perception of one of those guys on that end.

i don't make this stuff up from no where... i just read the numbers and i watch games to see why it's the case.. with okafor... he consistently doesn't contest and he's consistently late reacting... all the excuses in the world cannot hide this fact.. and it's going to be very evident once he hits the pros...

I don't get how you can ignore the multiple stretches he had where he played good defense then. I see the bad and the good and he doesn't react late mainly because he doesn't react. When he does decide to react his timing is good. When the game is close at the end he locks the paint down pretty often. His effort is beyond spotty but he has potential on that end (he at least has a lot of physical potential). No one is expecting All-Defense but he's not a negative out there even if its just because of his sheer size. You're too busy watching what he doesn't do to notice what he does do.

Steals ARE better for bigmen. For example in college steals said Nerlens Noel is the best defensive prospect since 1990 and now we look and see he is possibly the best defensive rookie since 1990.

Steals don't necessarily tell who's the best defender but its a pretty good laugh test (for players on teams that don't run some 24/7) on good players on either end. And looking at the top guys in blocks each year there's a ton of scrubs at the top. Moreso than steals. Guys like Jarvis Varnado and Hasheem Thabeet standout way ahead on the pack in blocks and they stink on ice.

like i said .. taking ONE number out of the box score and trying to attribute anything to that will result in a lot of noise... that is why in most good models you take a variety of factors... i have never contended that blocks is the end all be all ... but for centers it is important... what else is important? scoring in volume and efficiency and rebounding.... towns and okafor predictably are far apart in some of those areas.... towns just passes the offensive thresholds that lead to success in the pros while okafor fails on the defensive side.... that's all i'm highlighting...

Outside of his blocks that is not true. His rebounding numbers are good (nearly as good as Towns. IDK where this whole Okafor can't board but Towns can crap comes from. I'm 90% sure Jahlil will be the better rebounder in the pros) as are his block numbers, and even though we only have half the data so are his rim protection numbers.

You're making this whole criticism off low block numbers and him not being good enough to completely hide the worst defensive backcourt of any top 25 team and don't act like you aren't. If you weren't you wouldn't be saying he's closer to Ends Kanter than Towns (unless for some crazy reason you see Towns as a future DPOY).

Also the only areas Towns and Okafor are far in are points, FG%, FT%, fouls, and blocks. Okafor comes out on top on 3 of those. Towns has a slight lead in rebounding percentage but Jahlil is clearly better at boxing his man out and clearing space under the rim on he boards.

steals is also a very important factor and any model that doesn't factor that in across positions it's probably a bad one... but you have to make adjustments... joakim noah was also like nerlens with very high steal rates.... and they could be very similar type of players... but it's hard to argue that you would pick noah over a guy like duncan or mourning or mutumbo....

They factor in height, wingspan, weight, and most (not gonna say all) factor position in.

And I'd take Noel as a rookie over both Deke and Tim defensively and prior to the draft I said I expected Noel to be the best defender since Deke so I'm holding out on that one. Still finding two players that go against the trend means nothing. It's like saying PER is a bad indicator of success because Cody Zeller and Jared Sullinger had high PERs as freshman. Steals in a vacuum aren't really helpful but they're way better than blocks in a vacuum and you're using that to say Jahlil is bad.

[DickGrayson]

Okafor is no where near on Towns level in terms of rebounding. Okafor is a good rebounding, but not elite.

Towns plays on a team with 3-4 guys who rebound as well or better than Okafor and is still the top rebounder in Kentucky.
Okafor rebound numbers would go down if he played on Kentucky's roster, don't let his padded stats fool us.
Duke's big men like Plumlee and Jefferson wouldn't burn on Kentucky's roster either, Okafor plays with no depth to assess his rebounding numbers accurately.
If we see the games, Okafor spends moments forgetting to box out for defensively and is just a lazy overall defensive player.

[E-Balla]

Okafor is no where near on Towns level in terms of rebounding. Okafor is a good rebounding, but not elite.

Towns plays on a team with 3-4 guys who rebound as well or better than Okafor and is still the top rebounder in Kentucky.
Okafor rebound numbers would go down if he played on Kentucky's roster, don't let his padded stats fool us.
Duke's big men like Plumlee and Jefferson wouldn't burn on Kentucky's roster either, Okafor plays with no depth to assess his rebounding numbers accurately.
If we see the games, Okafor spends moments forgetting to box out for defensively and is just a lazy overall defensive player.

We've been through this before. Both teams grab a similar percentage of rebounds (Amile and Justice are just as good as Lyles and WCS) and the best rebounder on the Kentucky roster rarely touches the floor with KAT. Ever. Unless you have a good excuse for why the vastly superior rebounding team of Kentucky grabs the same amount of rebounds as Duke you're talking out of your ass. Amile and WCS have been playing college ball for years and every year Amile has been better on the boards. Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%. If anything Okafor plays on the better rebounding team.

[DickGrayson]

Okafor is no where near on Towns level in terms of rebounding. Okafor is a good rebounding, but not elite.

Towns plays on a team with 3-4 guys who rebound as well or better than Okafor and is still the top rebounder in Kentucky.
Okafor rebound numbers would go down if he played on Kentucky's roster, don't let his padded stats fool us.
Duke's big men like Plumlee and Jefferson wouldn't burn on Kentucky's roster either, Okafor plays with no depth to assess his rebounding numbers accurately.
If we see the games, Okafor spends moments forgetting to box out for defensively and is just a lazy overall defensive player.

We've been through this before. Both teams grab a similar percentage of rebounds (Amile and Justice are just as good as Lyles and WCS) and the best rebounder on the Kentucky roster rarely touches the floor with KAT. Ever. Unless you have a good excuse for why the vastly superior rebounding team of Kentucky grabs the same amount of rebounds as Duke you're talking out of your ass. Amile and WCS have been playing college ball for years and every year Amile has been better on the boards. Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%. If anything Okafor plays on the better rebounding team.

'

You got all your information wrong.
It's Duke at 71% and Kentucky at 69% . If you're going to compare two teams and make the comparison a 2% difference, you better be correct about both numbers. It may be you're getting it from a different so it may be mistake. But the difference is minimal and holds no weight. Let's talk about some real differences.


Jefferson and Justice are no where WCS in terms of rebounding. Jefferson closer to Lyles level, Lyles who will actually play in the NBA and is a better player than Jefferson, who would easily get 24-28 minutes on DUKE over Jefferson. Just as good as a rebounder, but better player.

Total Rebounds Per 100 Possessions
Kentucky
Towns 20.3
Johnson 18.0
Cauley Stein 15.8
Marcus Lee 15.2
Trey Lyles - 14.7
Derek Willis 11.8

DUKE
Okafor 17.4
Jefferson 16.2
Plumlee 15.3
Winslow 13.0

The fact that Kentucky is so stacked, their numbers would represent their rebound potential since they can't stat pad with so many rebounders on the team.

Team TRB
Duke is ranked 20th
Kentucky is ranked 12th.

Against top 25
Duke is ranked 47th
Kentucky is ranked 32


You really think 6"9 Jefferson and 6"6 Winslow are going to up against Kentucky and grab rebounds against giants like Johnson, WCS, Towns, Lee and Lyles? That's just comedy. Let's pray that Duke and Kentucky meet in the final because you put a lot of wager into DUKE and proclaiming Okafor is the next Shaq and Duke is a better rebounding team than Kentucky when Jefferson, Plumlee aren't even respectable NBA prospects and wouldn't get any playing time on Kentucky.

[E-Balla]

Okafor is no where near on Towns level in terms of rebounding. Okafor is a good rebounding, but not elite.

Towns plays on a team with 3-4 guys who rebound as well or better than Okafor and is still the top rebounder in Kentucky.
Okafor rebound numbers would go down if he played on Kentucky's roster, don't let his padded stats fool us.
Duke's big men like Plumlee and Jefferson wouldn't burn on Kentucky's roster either, Okafor plays with no depth to assess his rebounding numbers accurately.
If we see the games, Okafor spends moments forgetting to box out for defensively and is just a lazy overall defensive player.

We've been through this before. Both teams grab a similar percentage of rebounds (Amile and Justice are just as good as Lyles and WCS) and the best rebounder on the Kentucky roster rarely touches the floor with KAT. Ever. Unless you have a good excuse for why the vastly superior rebounding team of Kentucky grabs the same amount of rebounds as Duke you're talking out of your ass. Amile and WCS have been playing college ball for years and every year Amile has been better on the boards. Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%. If anything Okafor plays on the better rebounding team.

'

You got all your information wrong.
It's Duke at 71% and Kentucky at 69% . If you're going to compare two teams and make the comparison a 2% difference, you better be correct about both numbers. It may be you're getting it from a different so it may be mistake. But the difference is minimal and holds no weight. Let's talk about some real differences.


Jefferson and Justice are no where WCS in terms of rebounding. Jefferson closer to Lyles level, Lyles who will actually play in the NBA and is a better player than Jefferson, who would easily get 24-28 minutes on DUKE over Jefferson. Just as good as a rebounder, but better player.

Total Rebounds Per 100 Possessions
Kentucky
Towns 20.3
Johnson 18.0
Cauley Stein 15.8
Marcus Lee 15.2
Trey Lyles - 14.7
Derek Willis 11.8

DUKE
Okafor 17.4
Jefferson 16.2
Plumlee 15.3
Winslow 13.0

The fact that Kentucky is so stacked, their numbers would represent their rebound potential since they can't stat pad with so many rebounders on the team.

Team TRB
Duke is ranked 20th
Kentucky is ranked 12th.

Against top 25
Duke is ranked 47th
Kentucky is ranked 32


You really think 6"9 Jefferson and 6"6 Winslow are going to up against Kentucky and grab rebounds against giants like Johnson, WCS, Towns, Lee and Lyles? That's just comedy. Let's pray that Duke and Kentucky meet in the final because you put a lot of wager into DUKE and proclaiming Okafor is the next Shaq and Duke is a better rebounding team than Kentucky when Jefferson, Plumlee aren't even respectable NBA prospects and wouldn't get any playing time on Kentucky.

Story to disappoint you but 16.2 is closer to 15.8 than 14.7. Its basic math. And if Kentucky was so stacked on the boards they'd rank more than 8 spots higher especially with their offensive rebounding abilities. You just put all the proof to make what I said look correct and completely ignored the numbers for your own made up conclusion. Dakari is better than any non Jahlil rebounder on Duke but he rarely plays with KAT.

Also WCS's rebounds per 100 each season? 15.7 as a frosh, 15.5 as a sophomore, 15.8 this year. At this point its not even worth responding to because I know you're not dumb enough to believe the crap you post (like 16.2 being closer to 14.7 than 15.8 or Lyles and WCS being better rebounders because they're better players or height being the only way to determine who's better at rebounding or like this team being done.team full of rebounding gods but WCS is rebounding like he has the last two seasons). Its laughable at this point that even with the numbers in your face you still have the opposite conclusion of the numbers.

EDIT: and if you really think Kentucky outside of Towns is so much better than Duke outside of Okafor the numbers show how much better Okafor truly is.

[DickGrayson]

Story to disappoint you but 16.2 is closer to 15.8 than 14.7. Its basic math. And if Kentucky was so stacked on the boards they'd rank more than 8 spots higher especially with their offensive rebounding abilities. You just put all the proof to make what I said look correct and completely ignored the numbers for your own made up conclusion. Dakari is better than any non Jahlil rebounder on Duke but he rarely plays with KAT.

Also WCS's rebounds per 100 each season? 15.7 as a frosh, 15.5 as a sophomore, 15.8 this year. At this point its not even worth responding to because I know you're not dumb enough to believe the crap you post (like 16.2 being closer to 14.7 than 15.8 or Lyles and WCS being better rebounders because they're better players or height being the only way to determine who's better at rebounding or like this team being done.team full of rebounding gods but WCS is rebounding like he has the last two seasons). Its laughable at this point that even with the numbers in your face you still have the opposite conclusion of the numbers.

Read.
Jefferson isn't putting up 16.2 TRB in Kentucky. He's a 6"9 210 PF who would struggle to see the court on Kentucky. It's even questionable if he's better than Poythress. If you keep it basic, you'll never understand how inflated Jefferson numbers are on the boards if you keep it basic because theres no way he averages that rate on a stacked team.

Kentucky is stacked, most of the nation agrees. We could play with stats and measure them, but at the end of the day what matters most is what we see on the court. We have to use both components and it's obvious Kentucky is stacked rebounding wise. They have 5-6 really good rebounders.

The fact you act like WCS was playing with no one in his freshman and sophomore year(especially with how hard you ride and proclaim Noel is the greatest player of all time since Okafor) is comedy since:

You forgot to mention WCS played with Noel(17.8) as a Freshman, Randle(20.0) as a Sophomore and Towns (20.3) as a Junior.
You forgot to mention AJ played with Plumlee(16.8) as a Freshman, Parker (17.4) as a Sophomore and Okafor (17.4) as a Junior.

WCS plays with better rebounders than Jefferson. Always has and that will go in the books.

If you can't see Jefferson stats are padded and will never be a better rebounder than WCS now or in the future, then you'll be as helpless in trying to convince people Okafor can play defense. Self projection is never healthy, don't do it again. If you want to wager who will be a better NBA defender you can be my guest and take another L.

[DickGrayson]

EDIT: and if you really think Kentucky outside of Towns is so much better than Duke outside of Okafor the numbers show how much better Okafor truly is.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
You can look at it however you want.
The truth is Okafor doesn't play on a stacked front court. You've provided no evidence to support that and has failed through 4 post in trying to do so. These guys won't get burn on Kentucky's roster. It doesn't show "much better" Okafor is, it just shows his stats are inflated. I invite you to prove me wrong on that.

[E-Balla]

Story to disappoint you but 16.2 is closer to 15.8 than 14.7. Its basic math. And if Kentucky was so stacked on the boards they'd rank more than 8 spots higher especially with their offensive rebounding abilities. You just put all the proof to make what I said look correct and completely ignored the numbers for your own made up conclusion. Dakari is better than any non Jahlil rebounder on Duke but he rarely plays with KAT.

Also WCS's rebounds per 100 each season? 15.7 as a frosh, 15.5 as a sophomore, 15.8 this year. At this point its not even worth responding to because I know you're not dumb enough to believe the crap you post (like 16.2 being closer to 14.7 than 15.8 or Lyles and WCS being better rebounders because they're better players or height being the only way to determine who's better at rebounding or like this team being done.team full of rebounding gods but WCS is rebounding like he has the last two seasons). Its laughable at this point that even with the numbers in your face you still have the opposite conclusion of the numbers.

Read.
Jefferson isn't putting up 16.2 TRB in Kentucky. He's a 6"9 210 PF who would struggle to see the court on Kentucky. It's even questionable if he's better than Poythress. If you keep it basic, you'll never understand how inflated Jefferson numbers are on the boards if you keep it basic because theres no way he averages that rate on a stacked team.

Kentucky is stacked, most of the nation agrees. We could play with stats and measure them, but at the end of the day what matters most is what we see on the court. We have to use both components and it's obvious Kentucky is stacked rebounding wise. They have 5-6 really good rebounders.

The fact you act like WCS was playing with no one in his freshman and sophomore year(especially with how hard you ride and proclaim Noel is the greatest player of all time since Okafor) is comedy since:

You forgot to mention WCS played with Noel(17.8) as a Freshman, Randle(20.0) as a Sophomore and Towns (20.3) as a Junior.
You forgot to mention AJ played with Plumlee(16.8) as a Freshman, Parker (17.4) as a Sophomore and Okafor (17.4) as a Junior.

WCS plays with better rebounders than Jefferson. Always has and that will go in the books.

If you can't see Jefferson stats are padded and will never be a better rebounder than WCS now or in the future, then you'll be as helpless in trying to convince people Okafor can play defense. Self projection is never healthy, don't do it again. If you want to wager who will be a better NBA defender you can be my guest and take another L.

If it is so obvious why are the teams basically even in rebounding percentage?

EDIT: and if you really think Kentucky outside of Towns is so much better than Duke outside of Okafor the numbers show how much better Okafor truly is.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
You can look at it however you want.
The truth is Okafor doesn't play on a stacked front court. You've provided no evidence to support that and has failed through 4 post in trying to do so. These guys won't get burn on Kentucky's roster. It doesn't show "much better" Okafor is, it just shows his stats are inflated. I invite you to prove me wrong on that.

If his team is so much worse than Kentucky on the boards why don't their overall rebounding numbers show it at all?

And don't get mad at me for looking at the results and conclusions you made and calling you out on your obviously wrong conclusion that doesn't match the numbers at all. You're like the person that does a study on global warming and finds statistics saying global warming exists but in your conclusion you say "global warming is bull".

If you can answer those two questions in large text without stepping on everything you just said be my guest.

[DickGrayson]

If it is so obvious why are the teams basically even in rebounding percentage?

If his team is so much worse than Kentucky on the boards why don't their overall rebounding numbers show it at all?

And don't get mad at me for looking at the results and conclusions you made and calling you out on your obviously wrong conclusion that doesn't match the numbers at all. You're like the person that does a study on global warming and finds statistics saying global warming exists but in your conclusion you say "global warming is bull".

If you can answer those two questions in large text without stepping on everything you just said be my guest.

Whats the point of using the stats if you don't understand them?

First of all, weren't you mentioning defensive rebounding ? earlier? You made an error on the numbers and gave false stats. So I guess we're moving on from that? Not a problem.

in total rebounding percentage, Quinnipiac led the nation and are #1 in that department.
See what happens when you're too basic and one dimensional with a stat? It's a measurement, but it doesn't explain the entire crime scene and it won't solve the equation by itself. This is what you fail to realize. If we're going by your stiff logic then Quinnipiac are a better rebounding team than Duke and Kentucky. It's unhealthy to think like this. It seems like you're the only mad one waking up cranky in the morning and throwing insults when I thought were cool and had some cool discussions. If you get angry over confusion, that's a personal problem I'm not sure I can help you with.

Quinnipiac has only 3 guys who are 6"8 and the rest of the team are guards...this is the best rebounding team to you now? Stop. Theres so many NCAA teams that play different opponents, these numbers don't have absolute meaning. They do have meaning and enough meaning to measure where players produc.

as for Global Warming, I actually do believe it is exist, but that's another conversation. However, you gotta be a straight up fool to believe one study will confirm a fact when studies are done yearly and information is ever changing with one study debunking another...these studies get updated all the time. Time to update you.

[E-Balla]

If it is so obvious why are the teams basically even in rebounding percentage?

If his team is so much worse than Kentucky on the boards why don't their overall rebounding numbers show it at all?

And don't get mad at me for looking at the results and conclusions you made and calling you out on your obviously wrong conclusion that doesn't match the numbers at all. You're like the person that does a study on global warming and finds statistics saying global warming exists but in your conclusion you say "global warming is bull".

If you can answer those two questions in large text without stepping on everything you just said be my guest.

Whats the point of using the stats if you don't understand them?

First of all, weren't you mentioning defensive rebounding ? earlier? You made an error on the numbers and gave false stats. So I guess we're moving on from that? Not a problem.

Seriously? I stopped using DRB% because YOU mentioned TRB%. I you want to go back to using DRB% explain to me why Duke is better even though they are worse? Please because I honestly just want to hear an answer. Even if I disagree I'll have no issue if it makes sense. I usually like you as a poster but your refusal to answer this question or jump off your stance after proving yourself wrong is frustrating because you usually give good discussion. If god4gives was saying this I would've let it go long ago.

in total rebounding percentage, Quinnipiac led the nation and are #1 in that department.
See what happens when you're too basic and one dimensional with a stat? It's a measurement, but it doesn't explain the entire crime scene and it won't solve the equation by itself. This is what you fail to realize. If we're going by your stiff logic then Quinnipiac are a better rebounding team than Duke and Kentucky. It's unhealthy to think like this. It seems like you're the only mad one waking up cranky in the morning and throwing insults when I thought were cool and had some cool discussions. If you get angry over confusion, that's a personal problem I'm not sure I can help you with.

Quinnipiac has only 3 guys who are 6"8 and the rest of the team are guards...this is the best rebounding team to you now? Stop. Theres so many NCAA teams that play different opponents, these numbers don't have absolute meaning. They do have meaning and enough meaning to measure where players produc.

as for Global Warming, I actually do believe it is exist, but that's another conversation. However, you gotta be a straight up fool to believe one study will confirm a fact when studies are done yearly and information is ever changing with one study debunking another...these studies get updated all the time. Time to update you.

So is your rebuttal that the ACC is bad/small/worse competition compared to the SEC? If so I'd point you to the numbers where the ACC is ranked 2nd in SRS (point differential adjusted for strength of schedule) among conferences and the SEC is 5th. Now I don't have the rebounding numbers of the teams they played but I do have Kempom which will tell you Duke has had the 18th hardest opponents and Kentucky had the 47th hardest. It is also well known that as a whole the ACC has more size than the SEC.

Blaming the numbers for not agreeing with you isn't good practice. For example there was a time I would've told you Durant was a terrible post player that couldn't create his own shots off the bounce but I checked the numbers and he looked great. I went back and watched some games and noticed that while he doesn't post up often he's automatic when he does and he created a lot more looks for himself than I thought.

[noobcake]

Okafor is no where near on Towns level in terms of rebounding. Okafor is a good rebounding, but not elite.

Towns plays on a team with 3-4 guys who rebound as well or better than Okafor and is still the top rebounder in Kentucky.
Okafor rebound numbers would go down if he played on Kentucky's roster, don't let his padded stats fool us.
Duke's big men like Plumlee and Jefferson wouldn't burn on Kentucky's roster either, Okafor plays with no depth to assess his rebounding numbers accurately.
If we see the games, Okafor spends moments forgetting to box out for defensively and is just a lazy overall defensive player.

We've been through this before. Both teams grab a similar percentage of rebounds (Amile and Justice are just as good as Lyles and WCS) and the best rebounder on the Kentucky roster rarely touches the floor with KAT. Ever. Unless you have a good excuse for why the vastly superior rebounding team of Kentucky grabs the same amount of rebounds as Duke you're talking out of your ass. Amile and WCS have been playing college ball for years and every year Amile has been better on the boards. Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%. If anything Okafor plays on the better rebounding team.

Yes, let's use the example of Kenpom #175 Quinnipiac with SOS #293 to discredit the use of rebounding rate.

I figured with Kentucky's NBA front line, they would be the most dominant rebounding team in the nation. Care to explain how Cincinnati grabbed more rebounds, including 21 offensive rebounds last game?

Rebounding rate

Okafor:
15.4% Offensive
18.4% Defensive
17% Total

Towns:
14.2% Offensive
22.9% Defensive
18.9% Total

Okafor is not an elite rebounder for his size, but let's not act like Towns is on a different planet. Okafor is in fact a better offensive rebounder than Towns. Many defensive rebounds are not contested, while offensive rebounds are always contested.

[DickGrayson]

If it is so obvious why are the teams basically even in rebounding percentage?

If his team is so much worse than Kentucky on the boards why don't their overall rebounding numbers show it at all?

And don't get mad at me for looking at the results and conclusions you made and calling you out on your obviously wrong conclusion that doesn't match the numbers at all. You're like the person that does a study on global warming and finds statistics saying global warming exists but in your conclusion you say "global warming is bull".

If you can answer those two questions in large text without stepping on everything you just said be my guest.

Whats the point of using the stats if you don't understand them?

First of all, weren't you mentioning defensive rebounding ? earlier? You made an error on the numbers and gave false stats. So I guess we're moving on from that? Not a problem.

Seriously? I stopped using DRB% because YOU mentioned TRB%. I you want to go back to using DRB% explain to me why Duke is better even though they are worse? Please because I honestly just want to hear an answer. Even if I disagree I'll have no issue if it makes sense. I usually like you as a poster but your refusal to answer this question or jump off your stance after proving yourself wrong is frustrating because you usually give good discussion. If god4gives was saying this I would've let it go long ago.

in total rebounding percentage, Quinnipiac led the nation and are #1 in that department.
See what happens when you're too basic and one dimensional with a stat? It's a measurement, but it doesn't explain the entire crime scene and it won't solve the equation by itself. This is what you fail to realize. If we're going by your stiff logic then Quinnipiac are a better rebounding team than Duke and Kentucky. It's unhealthy to think like this. It seems like you're the only mad one waking up cranky in the morning and throwing insults when I thought were cool and had some cool discussions. If you get angry over confusion, that's a personal problem I'm not sure I can help you with.

Quinnipiac has only 3 guys who are 6"8 and the rest of the team are guards...this is the best rebounding team to you now? Stop. Theres so many NCAA teams that play different opponents, these numbers don't have absolute meaning. They do have meaning and enough meaning to measure where players produc.

as for Global Warming, I actually do believe it is exist, but that's another conversation. However, you gotta be a straight up fool to believe one study will confirm a fact when studies are done yearly and information is ever changing with one study debunking another...these studies get updated all the time. Time to update you.

So is your rebuttal that the ACC is bad/small/worse competition compared to the SEC? If so I'd point you to the numbers where the ACC is ranked 2nd in SRS (point differential adjusted for strength of schedule) among conferences and the SEC is 5th. Now I don't have the rebounding numbers of the teams they played but I do have Kempom which will tell you Duke has had the 18th hardest opponents and Kentucky had the 47th hardest. It is also well known that as a whole the ACC has more size than the SEC.

Blaming the numbers for not agreeing with you isn't good practice. For example there was a time I would've told you Durant was a terrible post player that couldn't create his own shots off the bounce but I checked the numbers and he looked great. I went back and watched some games and noticed that while he doesn't post up often he's automatic when he does and he created a lot more looks for himself than I thought.

I corrected the DRB stat you provided since they were off by a one. I was asking you what website you got the numbers from because I said I got mine from RealGM. I'm laughing because I still haven't gotten an answer on that. I am still waiting.
We were talking about DRB before but I guess it wasn't that important or you don't understand the statistic. I mentioned TRB because I thought you gave up in confirming your error on the Team Defensive Rebound stats.

I never said the ACC is bad. You're talking to yourself now.

Prove that the ACC has more size than the SEC.
Show us the depth charts of all the teams in the ACC and compare them with the SEC.

So you agree Quinnipiac is a better rebounding team than Duke? Sorry broseph, I prefer critically thinking and questioning until the equation is found. I think we're both not at full understanding, but you're choosing to accept these NCAA ranks to be absolute and define everything you're saying which results in Quinnipiac being the most efficient rebounding team in the NCAA.

The top 5 scorers in the NCAA are Tyler Harvey, Zikiteran Whitney, Denzel Livingston, Tyler Haws and Damion Lee.
So as observers trying to assess the best scorers in the nation, do live by this absolutely?
Or we use multiple categories to give us a better understanding of what we're trying to measure?
You're smart enough to know the answer to that.
We know this doesn't stop at paper, because we get most of our assessments from watching the games.
If we're being dense, then we could say Quinnipiac is the most efficient rebounding team and should be taken more serious than Duke and Kentucky, because if you go with this logic; you'll continue to lie to yourself. Kentucky and Duke being even in RB% doesn't tell tale of the tape or prove Duke has better rebounding bigs than Kentucky. I'll wager most scouts and draft addicts will select a Towns-less Kentucky big man platoon over Duke's Okafor-less big man platoon for a rebounding battle. I have a lot of confidence in saying that.

It's like getting hyped over a boxer who's 18-0 but he only fought guys with no experience or really bad records. We don't assess his fight style, how many knockouts he got in the fight, his defense foot speed or hand speed. We may rank him ahead of a guy who's 13-3 but has better tools than the 18-0 guy. Context is key.

[HeartBreakKid]

Offensive rebounds are not more impactful than defensive rebounds, that's a myth. Offensive rebounds are harder to get, that doesn't mean they are as important as defensive rebounds. Fighting on the offensive boards isn't even seen as a universal priority amongst basketball teams.