Okafor or Towns? Which center is the better pick?

[djphan]

[
Than even worse: they're telling half truths. I'd the defense terrible? Yes. Is the offense super good? Yes. Its a small sample for now and I'd expect the defense performs better and the offense worse as the season goes on. He's bad but like I said he helps the team.

lol .. ok... take it up with zach lowe then... i'm sure he's the crazy one...

I don't get how you can ignore the multiple stretches he had where he played good defense then. I see the bad and the good and he doesn't react late mainly because he doesn't react. When he does decide to react his timing is good. When the game is close at the end he locks the paint down pretty often. His effort is beyond spotty but he has potential on that end (he at least has a lot of physical potential). No one is expecting All-Defense but he's not a negative out there even if its just because of his sheer size. You're too busy watching what he doesn't do to notice what he does do.

I don't ignore his good stretches.. he can make a good play every now and then... but every now and then is not good enough.. he can have an entire game where he does nothing... the games against notre dame were good examples...

when the game is close he locks down the paint? that is literally an insane comment... which big man plays good defense just down the stretch and who is able to just turn it on like that consistently? how do you expect to be taken seriously?

Steals ARE better for bigmen. For example in college steals said Nerlens Noel is the best defensive prospect since 1990 and now we look and see he is possibly the best defensive rookie since 1990.

time will tell... but mutumbo is a very high bar which i don't think you have any idea how far noel has to go...

Outside of his blocks that is not true. His rebounding numbers are good (nearly as good as Towns. IDK where this whole Okafor can't board but Towns can crap comes from. I'm 90% sure Jahlil will be the better rebounder in the pros) as are his block numbers, and even though we only have half the data so are his rim protection numbers.

the rebounding numbers are similar.. i didn't mean to jumble that into the comparison...

You're making this whole criticism off low block numbers and him not being good enough to completely hide the worst defensive backcourt of any top 25 team and don't act like you aren't. If you weren't you wouldn't be saying he's closer to Ends Kanter than Towns (unless for some crazy reason you see Towns as a future DPOY).

backcourt defense excuse is kinda lame... guards cannot stop penetration every single time down the court... watch a basketball game and pay attention to the best defenders... it doesn't even happen 50% of the time... and if you really want to make that argument... cook, jones, winslow avgs more steals than the harrisons, booker, lyles...

Also the only areas Towns and Okafor are far in are points, FG%, FT%, fouls, and blocks. Okafor comes out on top on 3 of those. Towns has a slight lead in rebounding percentage but Jahlil is clearly better at boxing his man out and clearing space under the rim on he boards.

ok if you say so... i don't see a good case either way here...

And I'd take Noel as a rookie over both Deke and Tim defensively and prior to the draft I said I expected Noel to be the best defender since Deke so I'm holding out on that one. Still finding two players that go against the trend means nothing. It's like saying PER is a bad indicator of success because Cody Zeller and Jared Sullinger had high PERs as freshman. Steals in a vacuum aren't really helpful but they're way better than blocks in a vacuum and you're using that to say Jahlil is bad.

he certainly has the ability but being the best defender usually includes above league leading boardwork which he's not there yet... it's likely he'll be pretty good... we'll probably know more next year if it's really the knee rehab that was holding him back...

and the final thing on steals... it's hardly two players that go against the trend... how about mourning? how about rodman? mark eaton? roy hibbert? do you want me to continue this? there are 8 years of DPOY awards... i didn't even include the solid guys like dampier...

[DickGrayson]

Yes, let's use the example of Kenpom #175 Quinnipiac with SOS #293 to discredit the use of rebounding rate.

I figured with Kentucky's NBA front line, they would be the most dominant rebounding team in the nation. Care to explain how Cincinnati grabbed more rebounds, including 21 offensive rebounds last game?

Rebounding rate

Okafor:
15.4% Offensive
18.4% Defensive
17% Total

Towns:
14.2% Offensive
22.9% Defensive
18.9% Total

Okafor is not an elite rebounder for his size, but let's not act like Towns is on a different planet. Okafor is in fact a better offensive rebounder than Towns. Many defensive rebounds are not contested, while offensive rebounds are always contested.

1. SOS of Schedule isn't taken into consideration when using Rebound Rate. At the same time, DUKE and Kentucky got about the same SOS, so this is where we're using different stats and making more sense of these measurements. Discrediting the use of rebound rate isn't smart, but using it only the only measurement isn't smart either.

2. One game, not even a worthy sample size and doesn't mean anything except Cinci hit the boards hard that game. Great defense doesn't always equal to dominating rebounding. Look at the top 5 rebounding teams in the NBA. They won't rank top in Op FG%. Kentucky are still stacked with a roster of capable rebounders. How can you deny that because of one game? That's a joke

3. Towns is on a different planet. Okafor's rebound stats are inflated.

and you're wrong.
On Kentucky, you have a PF at the 3 and Two Centers playing at the same time. There's traffic in the painted area in Kentucky, so let's not be naive and act like this is the NBA where bigs get more space to grab a rebound. The courts are smaller thus more traffic. and no one is contesting Okafor shot unless hes going against someone his size. How many guys in the NCAA have his combination of length, mass and impact? This is why we need a DUKE-Kentucky finals to prove once for and for all, even if it's just one game.

[DickGrayson]

E-Balla wrote:
Also the only areas Towns and Okafor are far in are points, FG%, FT%, fouls, and blocks. Okafor comes out on top on 3 of those. Towns has a slight lead in rebounding percentage but Jahlil is clearly better at boxing his man out and clearing space under the rim on he boards.

3 out of 4?

Im confused.

Towns is the better shot blocker and FT shooter.
Okafor fouls less(soft) and shoots higher FG%

wouldn't that be 2 out of 4?

[noobcake]

Yes, let's use the example of Kenpom #175 Quinnipiac with SOS #293 to discredit the use of rebounding rate.

I figured with Kentucky's NBA front line, they would be the most dominant rebounding team in the nation. Care to explain how Cincinnati grabbed more rebounds, including 21 offensive rebounds last game?

Rebounding rate

Okafor:
15.4% Offensive
18.4% Defensive
17% Total

Towns:
14.2% Offensive
22.9% Defensive
18.9% Total

Okafor is not an elite rebounder for his size, but let's not act like Towns is on a different planet. Okafor is in fact a better offensive rebounder than Towns. Many defensive rebounds are not contested, while offensive rebounds are always contested.

1. SOS of Schedule isn't taken into consideration when using Rebound Rate. At the same time, DUKE and Kentucky got about the same SOS, so this is where we're using different stats and making more sense of these measurements. Discrediting the use of rebound rate isn't smart, but using it only the only measurement isn't smart either.

2. One game, not even a worthy sample size and doesn't mean anything except Cinci hit the boards hard that game. Great defense doesn't always equal to dominating rebounding. Look at the top 5 rebounding teams in the NBA. They won't rank top in Op FG%. Kentucky are still stacked with a roster of capable rebounders. How can you deny that because of one game? That's a joke

3. Towns is on a different planet. Okafor's rebound stats are inflated.

and you're wrong.
On Kentucky, you have a PF at the 3 and Two Centers playing at the same time. There's traffic in the painted area in Kentucky, so let's not be naive and act like this is the NBA where bigs get more space to grab a rebound. The courts are smaller thus more traffic. and no one is contesting Okafor shot unless hes going against someone his size. How many guys in the NCAA have his combination of length, mass and impact? This is why we need a DUKE-Kentucky finals to prove once for and for all, even if it's just one game.

1. No, their SOS are not similar. Duke has a much higher SOS. The difference between Duke (#18) and Kentucky (#47) is quite large. The point is that Duke rebounds at about the same rate against better competition. The numbers support this fact.

2. I didn't even bring up the fact that Kentucky was out-rebounded multiple times in SEC play against inferior competition. I did not start the notion that Kentucky's front line is massive and talented. YOU are one who keeps on bringing this up, yet this notation does not fall in line with the rebounding statistics.

3. So you are going to discount Okafor's stats because of his "length, mass and impact"? Do you want to carry that same argument to Towns' performances? Because the numbers do not support your argument, you are now going to argue for some arcane notion that poor Kentucky rebounding is being limited by the college play schemes

[djphan]

and in case you guys are curious... offensive rebounds are worth less than defensive rebounds... but offensive rebounds are good indicators of inside scoring which we all know okafor is great at... it's another peg in the offense column for okafor but a slight ding in his rebounding since towns already has a slight edge...

the rebounding is close either way... so i'm not going to belabor that point...

[DickGrayson]

Yes, let's use the example of Kenpom #175 Quinnipiac with SOS #293 to discredit the use of rebounding rate.

I figured with Kentucky's NBA front line, they would be the most dominant rebounding team in the nation. Care to explain how Cincinnati grabbed more rebounds, including 21 offensive rebounds last game?

Rebounding rate

Okafor:
15.4% Offensive
18.4% Defensive
17% Total

Towns:
14.2% Offensive
22.9% Defensive
18.9% Total

Okafor is not an elite rebounder for his size, but let's not act like Towns is on a different planet. Okafor is in fact a better offensive rebounder than Towns. Many defensive rebounds are not contested, while offensive rebounds are always contested.

1. SOS of Schedule isn't taken into consideration when using Rebound Rate. At the same time, DUKE and Kentucky got about the same SOS, so this is where we're using different stats and making more sense of these measurements. Discrediting the use of rebound rate isn't smart, but using it only the only measurement isn't smart either.

2. One game, not even a worthy sample size and doesn't mean anything except Cinci hit the boards hard that game. Great defense doesn't always equal to dominating rebounding. Look at the top 5 rebounding teams in the NBA. They won't rank top in Op FG%. Kentucky are still stacked with a roster of capable rebounders. How can you deny that because of one game? That's a joke

3. Towns is on a different planet. Okafor's rebound stats are inflated.

and you're wrong.
On Kentucky, you have a PF at the 3 and Two Centers playing at the same time. There's traffic in the painted area in Kentucky, so let's not be naive and act like this is the NBA where bigs get more space to grab a rebound. The courts are smaller thus more traffic. and no one is contesting Okafor shot unless hes going against someone his size. How many guys in the NCAA have his combination of length, mass and impact? This is why we need a DUKE-Kentucky finals to prove once for and for all, even if it's just one game.

1. No, their SOS are not similar. Duke has a much higher SOS. The difference between Duke (#18) and Kentucky (#47) is quite large. The point is that Duke rebounds at about the same rate against better competition. The numbers support this fact.

2. I didn't even bring up the fact that Kentucky was out-rebounded multiple times in SEC play against inferior competition. I did not bring up how massive and talented the Kentucky front line is. YOU are one who keeps on bringing this up. The numbers simply do not support your argument.

3. So you are going to discount Okafor's stats because of his "length, mass and impact"? Do you want to carry that same argument to Towns' performances? Poor Kentucky being limited by the college play schemes, artificially depressing their rebounding rates.

1. The difference between SOS isn't that different. FIrst of all, you got your numbers wrong.
Kentucky is 34th in SOS, not 47. Duke is 24th in SOS, not 18.
Your numbers support no facts since they're made up.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /2015.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /2015.html

sauces.

This isn't the NBA where 20 and 30 are a massive difference in numbers. This is the NCAA. A lot of damn schools play in the NCAA. 24 and 34 is the same rank. Get over it and correct your numbers.

2. Out rebounded multiple teams, like how many times? and by who? I'm sure they have but I don't want you to be lazy. Lay out the information for us to read who Kentucky was out rebounded me and let's investigate this. I still rank Kentucky's big men over any platoon in the nation.

3. Okafor's rebounding stats are inflated, he plays with no depth. Towns plays with depth, so his rebounding numbers have more strength.

[E-Balla]

Whats the point of using the stats if you don't understand them?

First of all, weren't you mentioning defensive rebounding ? earlier? You made an error on the numbers and gave false stats. So I guess we're moving on from that? Not a problem.

Seriously? I stopped using DRB% because YOU mentioned TRB%. I you want to go back to using DRB% explain to me why Duke is better even though they are worse? Please because I honestly just want to hear an answer. Even if I disagree I'll have no issue if it makes sense. I usually like you as a poster but your refusal to answer this question or jump off your stance after proving yourself wrong is frustrating because you usually give good discussion. If god4gives was saying this I would've let it go long ago.

in total rebounding percentage, Quinnipiac led the nation and are #1 in that department.
See what happens when you're too basic and one dimensional with a stat? It's a measurement, but it doesn't explain the entire crime scene and it won't solve the equation by itself. This is what you fail to realize. If we're going by your stiff logic then Quinnipiac are a better rebounding team than Duke and Kentucky. It's unhealthy to think like this. It seems like you're the only mad one waking up cranky in the morning and throwing insults when I thought were cool and had some cool discussions. If you get angry over confusion, that's a personal problem I'm not sure I can help you with.

Quinnipiac has only 3 guys who are 6"8 and the rest of the team are guards...this is the best rebounding team to you now? Stop. Theres so many NCAA teams that play different opponents, these numbers don't have absolute meaning. They do have meaning and enough meaning to measure where players produc.

as for Global Warming, I actually do believe it is exist, but that's another conversation. However, you gotta be a straight up fool to believe one study will confirm a fact when studies are done yearly and information is ever changing with one study debunking another...these studies get updated all the time. Time to update you.

So is your rebuttal that the ACC is bad/small/worse competition compared to the SEC? If so I'd point you to the numbers where the ACC is ranked 2nd in SRS (point differential adjusted for strength of schedule) among conferences and the SEC is 5th. Now I don't have the rebounding numbers of the teams they played but I do have Kempom which will tell you Duke has had the 18th hardest opponents and Kentucky had the 47th hardest. It is also well known that as a whole the ACC has more size than the SEC.

Blaming the numbers for not agreeing with you isn't good practice. For example there was a time I would've told you Durant was a terrible post player that couldn't create his own shots off the bounce but I checked the numbers and he looked great. I went back and watched some games and noticed that while he doesn't post up often he's automatic when he does and he created a lot more looks for himself than I thought.

I corrected the DRB stat you provided since they were off by a one. I was asking you what website you got the numbers from because I said I got mine from RealGM. I'm laughing because I still haven't gotten an answer on that. I am still waiting.
We were talking about DRB before but I guess it wasn't that important or you don't understand the statistic. I mentioned TRB because I thought you gave up in confirming your error on the Team Defensive Rebound stats.

False you mentioned the TRB and I know that because Duke is over Kentucky in DRB so there's no way you happened to mess up here:

The fact that Kentucky is so stacked, their numbers would represent their rebound potential since they can't stat pad with so many rebounders on the team.

Team TRB
Duke is ranked 20th
Kentucky is ranked 12th.

Against top 25
Duke is ranked 47th
Kentucky is ranked 32

No you didn't mention DRB% at all. You jumped straight to total probably after noticing you were wrong. I got them off b-r's college site but here's from the site you claimed to have used, RealGM:

I never said the ACC is bad. You're talking to yourself now.

Prove that the ACC has more size than the SEC.
Show us the depth charts of all the teams in the ACC and compare them with the SEC.

So you agree Quinnipiac is a better rebounding team than Duke? Sorry broseph, I prefer critically thinking and questioning until the equation is found. I think we're both not at full understanding, but you're choosing to accept these NCAA ranks to be absolute and define everything you're saying which results in Quinnipiac being the most efficient rebounding team in the NCAA.

The top 5 scorers in the NCAA are Tyler Harvey, Zikiteran Whitney, Denzel Livingston, Tyler Haws and Damion Lee.
So as observers trying to assess the best scorers in the nation, do live by this absolutely?
Or we use multiple categories to give us a better understanding of what we're trying to measure?
You're smart enough to know the answer to that.
We know this doesn't stop at paper, because we get most of our assessments from watching the games.
If we're being dense, then we could say Quinnipiac is the most efficient rebounding team and should be taken more serious than Duke and Kentucky, because if you go with this logic; you'll continue to lie to yourself. Kentucky and Duke being even in RB% doesn't tell tale of the tape or prove Duke has better rebounding bigs than Kentucky. I'll wager most scouts and draft addicts will select a Towns-less Kentucky big man platoon over Duke's Okafor-less big man platoon for a rebounding battle. I have a lot of confidence in saying that.

It's like getting hyped over a boxer who's 18-0 but he only fought guys with no experience or really bad records. We don't assess his fight style, how many knockouts he got in the fight, his defense foot speed or hand speed. We may rank him ahead of a guy who's 13-3 but has better tools than the 18-0 guy. Context is key.

You still haven't answered those two giant bolded questions. And what are you saying here? It's like you are trying to lead me into thinking the numbers aren't comparable between teams even though they clearly are as Duke has objectively played a harder schedule...

[noobcake]

1. SOS of Schedule isn't taken into consideration when using Rebound Rate. At the same time, DUKE and Kentucky got about the same SOS, so this is where we're using different stats and making more sense of these measurements. Discrediting the use of rebound rate isn't smart, but using it only the only measurement isn't smart either.

2. One game, not even a worthy sample size and doesn't mean anything except Cinci hit the boards hard that game. Great defense doesn't always equal to dominating rebounding. Look at the top 5 rebounding teams in the NBA. They won't rank top in Op FG%. Kentucky are still stacked with a roster of capable rebounders. How can you deny that because of one game? That's a joke

3. Towns is on a different planet. Okafor's rebound stats are inflated.

and you're wrong.
On Kentucky, you have a PF at the 3 and Two Centers playing at the same time. There's traffic in the painted area in Kentucky, so let's not be naive and act like this is the NBA where bigs get more space to grab a rebound. The courts are smaller thus more traffic. and no one is contesting Okafor shot unless hes going against someone his size. How many guys in the NCAA have his combination of length, mass and impact? This is why we need a DUKE-Kentucky finals to prove once for and for all, even if it's just one game.

1. No, their SOS are not similar. Duke has a much higher SOS. The difference between Duke (#18) and Kentucky (#47) is quite large. The point is that Duke rebounds at about the same rate against better competition. The numbers support this fact.

2. I didn't even bring up the fact that Kentucky was out-rebounded multiple times in SEC play against inferior competition. I did not bring up how massive and talented the Kentucky front line is. YOU are one who keeps on bringing this up. The numbers simply do not support your argument.

3. So you are going to discount Okafor's stats because of his "length, mass and impact"? Do you want to carry that same argument to Towns' performances? Poor Kentucky being limited by the college play schemes, artificially depressing their rebounding rates.

1. The difference between SOS isn't that different. FIrst of all, you got your numbers wrong.
Kentucky is 34th in SOS, not 47. Duke is 24th in SOS, not 18.
Your numbers support no facts since they're made up.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /2015.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch ... /2015.html

sauces.

This isn't the NBA where 20 and 30 are a massive difference in numbers. This is the NCAA. A lot of damn schools play in the NCAA. 24 and 34 is the same rank. Get over it and correct your numbers.

2. Out rebounded multiple teams, like how many times? and by who? I'm sure they have but I don't want you to be lazy. Lay out the information for us to read who Kentucky was out rebounded me and let's investigate this. I still rank Kentucky's big men over any platoon in the nation.

3. Okafor's rebounding stats are inflated, he plays with no depth. Towns plays with depth, so his rebounding numbers have more strength.

1. That is sports-reference's simple system devised for NFL play.

You can read about it here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=37

It weighs all game by the same amount. It weights all the points equally. It works for NFL play when there is largely parity. It does not care about the fact that Duke is playing UNC, Louisville, Virginia, Notre Dame in conference while Kentucky is playing Arkansas and LSU in SEC.

Using more advanced stats (you can find other SOS rankings here: http://www.masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm), Duke is universally ahead

http://kenpom.com/
18 vs 47

Code: Select all

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/sos

11 vs 45

2.

Squeaking by Missouri, 2x Tennessee, Providence, Georgia, Arkansas by 1-4 rebounds.

Out rebounded by Alabama:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

Demolished by South Carolina:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... olina.html

Tied with TAMU's "massive" front line:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... as-am.html

Outrebounded by North Carolina:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

Texas:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

When not playing high-majors and non-tournament teams, Kentucky's rebounding is simply not dominant given how much NBA talent you claim they seem to possess.

edit: link broken, you can check here:

Code: Select all

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kentucky/2015-schedule.html

You are essentially shifting the burden out of ignorance.

3. Ok back to your Okafor stats are inflated argument.

Let me reiterate, I'm not saying Kentucky is a poor rebounding team. I'm merely refuting your argument that 1) Kentucky is stacked in the front court with NBA talent, thus depressing Towns' rebounding stats, 2) Okafor's defensive rebounding stats are inflated because he plays with Duke bigs who won't make the Kentucky roster and 3) Okafor's offensive stats are inflated because of his "length, mass and impact"... Do you even read the crap you type? Okafor's stats are inflated because he is massive, talented and impactful?

[E-Balla]

Than even worse: they're telling half truths. I'd the defense terrible? Yes. Is the offense super good? Yes. Its a small sample for now and I'd expect the defense performs better and the offense worse as the season goes on. He's bad but like I said he helps the team.

lol .. ok... take it up with zach lowe then... i'm sure he's the crazy one...

I don't get how you can ignore the multiple stretches he had where he played good defense then. I see the bad and the good and he doesn't react late mainly because he doesn't react. When he does decide to react his timing is good. When the game is close at the end he locks the paint down pretty often. His effort is beyond spotty but he has potential on that end (he at least has a lot of physical potential). No one is expecting All-Defense but he's not a negative out there even if its just because of his sheer size. You're too busy watching what he doesn't do to notice what he does do.

I don't ignore his good stretches.. he can make a good play every now and then... but every now and then is not good enough.. he can have an entire game where he does nothing... the games against notre dame were good examples...

when the game is close he locks down the paint? that is literally an insane comment... which big man plays good defense just down the stretch and who is able to just turn it on like that consistently? how do you expect to be taken seriously?

He shut down the paint in the end of that first ND game! They were 5-6 at the rim in the first 30 minutes and 0-5 on the last 5. That game literally has his most impressive 10 minute stretch of the season at the end of it

time will tell... but mutumbo is a very high bar which i don't think you have any idea how far noel has to go...

I do he's the modern GOAT but Noel is already a top 5 defender on 20.

the rebounding numbers are similar.. i didn't mean to jumble that into the comparison...



backcourt defense excuse is kinda lame... guards cannot stop penetration every single time down the court... watch a basketball game and pay attention to the best defenders... it doesn't even happen 50% of the time... and if you really want to make that argument... cook, jones, winslow avgs more steals than the harrisons, booker, lyles...

They should be able to stop people from having running starts to the rim. I never said Okafor was great but he is good when he tries which shows me he might not be a negative when he's giving the effort.

ok if you say so... i don't see a good case either way here...



he certainly has the ability but being the best defender usually includes above league leading boardwork which he's not there yet... it's likely he'll be pretty good... we'll probably know more next year if it's really the knee rehab that was holding him back...

and the final thing on steals... it's hardly two players that go against the trend... how about mourning? how about rodman? mark eaton? roy hibbert? do you want me to continue this? there are 8 years of DPOY awards... i didn't even include the solid guys like dampier...

[/quote][/quote]
It wasn't the knee rehab it was the weight. He can gain a lot of weight and get rid of 99% of his negatives on that end.

And its a trend that doesn't mean its always right.

[DickGrayson]

1. That is sports-reference's simple system devised for NFL play.

You can read about it here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=37

It weighs all game by the same amount. It weights all the points equally. It works for NFL play when there is largely parity. It does not care about the fact that Duke is playing UNC, Louisville, Virginia, Notre Dame in conference while Kentucky is playing Arkansas and LSU in SEC.

Using more advanced stats (you can find other SOS rankings here: http://www.masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm), Duke is universally ahead

http://kenpom.com/
18 vs 47

Code: Select all

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/sos

11 vs 45

2.

Squeaking by Missouri, 2x Tennessee, Providence, Georgia, Arkansas by 1-4 rebounds.

Out rebounded by Alabama:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

Demolished by South Carolina:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... olina.html

Tied with TAMU's "massive" front line:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... as-am.html

Outrebounded by North Carolina:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

Texas:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/box ... tucky.html

When not playing high-majors and non-tournament teams, Kentucky's rebounding is simply not dominant given how much NBA talent you claim they seem to possess.

edit: link broken, you can check here:

Code: Select all

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kentucky/2015-schedule.html

You are essentially shifting the burden out of ignorance.

3. Ok back to your Okafor stats are inflated argument.

Let me reiterate, I'm not saying Kentucky is a poor rebounding team. I'm merely refuting your argument that 1) Kentucky is stacked in the front court with NBA talent, thus depressing Towns' rebounding stats, 2) Okafor's defensive rebounding stats are inflated because he plays with Duke bigs who won't make the Kentucky roster and 3) Okafor's offensive stats are inflated because of his "length, mass and impact"... Do you even read the crap you type? Okafor's stats are inflated because he is massive, talented and impactful?

1. You're failing to understand the gap between 20-40 isn't a big difference in the NCAA.
When you're using SOS you have consider how many teams there are in the NCAA. You would make a point if there was only 50 teams in the NCAA. 347 schools in the NCAA.
Any common fan knows the ACC is the best conference, so DUKE will have the better SOS by default.
But you're miseducated on the gap between the two teams.
We're acting like Kentucky gets outrebounded as a team by their opponents more than Duke does. Your small sample size doesn't represent much. I would love to find time and look at every box score for Duke and see how many times they got out rebounded and how it measures with Kentucky.

2. 4 games? again with the small sample size. Please find me a team in NCAA history that has out rebounded their opponent every game. Once again, this would be fair if we found DUKE's box score and see how dominant they were on the boards.

3. Theres no refutal. Towns would have a higher rebounder rate on any team. What team in the NCAA plays with a PF at the 3 and two centers? You think you're crazy enough to claim that Okafor would be able to grab as many boards as he does with DUKE playing on Kentucky? You don't got the balls to say that because Okafor isn't on Towns level of rebounding and Towns will prove the gap to be more huge in the NBA where Okafor actually has to play with people his size and won't get easy boards.

[DickGrayson]

No you didn't mention DRB% at all. You jumped straight to total probably after noticing you were wrong. I got them off b-r's college site but here's from the site you claimed to have used, RealGM:

That picture is way too small to see anything.
Save it on your computer and increase the size of it for it to be readible
upload it on imgur.com


You mentioned DRB% first. Heres your quote.

"Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%." - EBalla
Go to previous page to read it if you forgot.

You got all your information wrong.
It's Duke at 71% and Kentucky at 69% . If you're going to compare two teams and make the comparison a 2% difference, you better be correct about both numbers. It may be you're getting it from a different so it may be mistake. But the difference is minimal and holds no weight. Let's talk about some real differences.


Jefferson and Justice are no where WCS in terms of rebounding. Jefferson closer to Lyles level, Lyles who will actually play in the NBA and is a better player than Jefferson, who would easily get 24-28 minutes on DUKE over Jefferson. Just as good as a rebounder, but better player.

Total Rebounds Per 100 Possessions
Kentucky
Towns 20.3
Johnson 18.0
Cauley Stein 15.8
Marcus Lee 15.2
Trey Lyles - 14.7
Derek Willis 11.8

DUKE
Okafor 17.4
Jefferson 16.2
Plumlee 15.3
Winslow 13.0

The fact that Kentucky is so stacked, their numbers would represent their rebound potential since they can't stat pad with so many rebounders on the team.

Team TRB
Duke is ranked 20th
Kentucky is ranked 12th.

Against top 25
Duke is ranked 47th
Kentucky is ranked 32

I corrected you on your error on the first stat Rebound %
I brought up TRB for each player
then TRB for the teams and against the top 25.

All 3 different statistics because you presented one simple statistic that doesn't tell the whole story. Why should I be stoned for expanding the discussion to 2 other rebounding stats when I corrected your error?

If you got confused E-Balla, it's cool to admitted. Frustration is showing when you claimed I made a mistake, self projections not healthy.




Next time don't be sloppy on the stats you present.

[E-Balla]

No you didn't mention DRB% at all. You jumped straight to total probably after noticing you were wrong. I got them off b-r's college site but here's from the site you claimed to have used, RealGM:

That picture is way too small to see anything.
Save it on your computer and increase the size of it for it to be readible
upload it on imgur.com


You mentioned DRB% first. Heres your quote.

"Kentucky grabs 68% of their defensive rebounds and Duke grabs 70%." - EBalla
Go to previous page to read it if you forgot.

You got all your information wrong.
It's Duke at 71% and Kentucky at 69% . If you're going to compare two teams and make the comparison a 2% difference, you better be correct about both numbers. It may be you're getting it from a different so it may be mistake. But the difference is minimal and holds no weight. Let's talk about some real differences.


Jefferson and Justice are no where WCS in terms of rebounding. Jefferson closer to Lyles level, Lyles who will actually play in the NBA and is a better player than Jefferson, who would easily get 24-28 minutes on DUKE over Jefferson. Just as good as a rebounder, but better player.

Total Rebounds Per 100 Possessions
Kentucky
Towns 20.3
Johnson 18.0
Cauley Stein 15.8
Marcus Lee 15.2
Trey Lyles - 14.7
Derek Willis 11.8

DUKE
Okafor 17.4
Jefferson 16.2
Plumlee 15.3
Winslow 13.0

The fact that Kentucky is so stacked, their numbers would represent their rebound potential since they can't stat pad with so many rebounders on the team.

Team TRB
Duke is ranked 20th
Kentucky is ranked 12th.

Against top 25
Duke is ranked 47th
Kentucky is ranked 32

I corrected you on your error on the first stat Rebound %
I brought up TRB for each player
then TRB for the teams and against the top 25.

All 3 different statistics because you presented one simple statistic that doesn't tell the whole story. Why should I be stoned for expanding the discussion to 2 other rebounding stats when I corrected your error?

If you got confused E-Balla, it's cool to admitted. Frustration is showing when you claimed I made a mistake, self projections not healthy.




Next time don't be sloppy on the stats you present.

The image was shrinked to fit. Open it in a new tab.

And my bad I was slightly off with my numbers I didn't catch that part of your post. You still haven't address the main point (that Duke is statistically better rebounding on the defensive glass and at least at the same level as a team when it comes to rebounding). I don't really care about anything else I just want to hear a logical explanation for why Duke is about even as a rebounding team statistically even though according to you they are way worse (and so much worse the comparable numbers of individual players on both teams are completely inaccurate). Bring up the other rebounding statistics you are still cherry picking my posts and not answering the only two questions relevant to making your point.

Also you unintentionally under cut your posts again since that post clearly shows that the ACC as a whole is way better on the boards than the SEC.

I just want to hear an explanation of how you rationalize your argument without this cherry picking stats and ignoring posts because I'm 1% off for both teams.

[DickGrayson]

I have no answer because i got shut down on those points lol

[noobcake]

lol at this guy. Only looking at stats that supports that barely supports his argument.

Towns' marginally superior rebounding rates over Okafor is significant, while team rebounding rate, team SOS, conference SOS is insignificant.

[DickGrayson]

lol at this guy. Only looking at stats that supports that barely supports his argument.

Towns' marginally superior rebounding rates over Okafor is significant, while team rebounding rate, team SOS, conference SOS is insignificant.

Towns vs Okafor...we're comparing two things, if Towns is the better rebounder, the comparison is more defined.
SOS is 347 schools that are being compared. It's a vague gap because of the number of teams.

If you can't understand the gap, then just laugh at yourself for being silly and move on. No need to stress and fight over this.

[Shock Defeat]

Okafor's FLOOR is Al Jefferson. You can't pass that up in a #1. There's a chance that Towns becomes a better player but there's also a risk that he won't be. When you have a sure Al Jefferson you take him and hope he develops an all-around game.

[djphan]

let's talk about al jefferson... didn't al jefferson have defensive tools also? is his failure on the defensive end because he simply was not a good defender or because he didn't try?

[Zeitgeister]

let's talk about al jefferson... didn't al jefferson have defensive tools also? is his failure on the defensive end because he simply was not a good defender or because he didn't try?

His defensive tools are fine, but not as good as Okafor's.

Al Jefferson
263 lbs
Wingspan: 7'2.5"
Standing Reach: 9'2"

Jahlil Okafor
272 lbs
Wingspan: 7'5-7'6
Standing Reach: 9'2.5"

Jahlil had about 10 pounds on him and it looks like he's got stronger legs.

[noobcake]

Okafor lacking tools argument is really stupid. Everyone can see that he is very nimble on his feet. He is very mobile for his size. He has a better wingspan, weight, lower body size and reach than Towns.

No reason to think he has worse defensive tools. Let's bring up something that has yet to mentioned in this thread: Towns can't stay out of foul trouble even in 23 minutes a game. Why does this not get mentioned? Plenty of young NBA bigs can't stay on the court because they can't defend without fouling.

Towns 5.6 fouls per 40 (2.9 fouls in merely 23 minutes a game)
Okafor 2.7 fouls per 40

Towns fouls at more than double the rate Okafor fouls. And if you want to argue that Okafor doesn't play a lick of defense and that Towns goes hard to challenge every shot, let us examine Anthony Davis and Noel and current DPOY WCS.

Davis: 2.4 fouls per 40
Noel: 3.2 fouls per 40
WCS: 3.2 fouls per 40

Imagine the struggle when Towns is asked to defend better NBA PF/C rather sharing the load with WCS this year.

[djphan]

fouling issues are pretty common in big men.... you know who had a whole lot of issues? david robinson... guess what his fouling rate was as a freshman... 8.6.... hakeem olajuwon also... demarcus cousins also had a high foul rate in college and it followed him in the pros but he was fine ....