Cooper Flagg - Duke

[CptCrunch]

if you had to pick a single stat as an indicator BPM is usually the best, but it can be weird in isolation, like Isaiah Evans this year...2nd highest BPM among all freshmen at 12.7 iirc (2nd to only Queen)...despite not recording a single steal or block all year and only having 7 FTAs, so it's hard to understand what it's even doing here

I feel like you are just trolling here clyde. Evans plays 13 minutes a game and puts up 8 points in those 13 minutes based on shooting 50% from 3, and all he does is shoot open 3's.

I don't think I need to explain to you how this is different from other freshman BPM leaders historically nor why Evans is unlikely to keep up this rate of production. This is calling some bench shooters on 60% shooting hot streak the best player in the world; the exact same veins.

[clyde21]

if you had to pick a single stat as an indicator BPM is usually the best, but it can be weird in isolation, like Isaiah Evans this year...2nd highest BPM among all freshmen at 12.7 iirc (2nd to only Queen)...despite not recording a single steal or block all year and only having 7 FTAs, so it's hard to understand what it's even doing here

I feel like you are just trolling here clyde. Evans plays 13 minutes a game and puts up 8 points in those 13 minutes based on shooting 50% from 3, and all he does is shoot open 3's.

I don't think I need to explain to you how this is different from other freshman BPM leaders historically nor why Evans is unlikely to keep up this rate of production. This is calling some bench shooters on 60% shooting hot streak the best player in the world; the exact same veins.

i don't disagree with you that BPM is one of the better statistical indicators of success, just saying that it's not infallible and it does have some weird outputs.

[BigGargamel]

Here is the current top 10 in college BPM. Somehow i doubt that BPM is really moving the needle on draft stock.

1. Kameron Jones Marquette 16.7
2. Johni Broome Auburn 16.5
3. Emanuel Sharp Houston 15.5
4. Eric Dixon Villanova 15.2
5. Derik Queen Maryland 14.6
6. Eric Dailey UCLA 13.9
7. Oscar Cluff South Dakota State 13.6
8. Simas Lukosius Cincinnati 13.0
9. Chad Baker-Mazara Auburn 12.9
10. Cameron Matthews Mississippi State 12.8

Dont want to derail thread, but just needed to point out how much of a fan I am of Kam Jones. Easily my favorite player (other than the team I support) over the last few years, have a hard time not seeing him being an impact nba guard.

He has tremendous size and general athleticism for his position, and just overall very talented imo. Yes he is old but not an excuse to miss out on this impact player.

Knecht, Da Silva, Shannon were all 23+ and first round picks last year if I remember correctly. Jones can ball. I've had him in my late first round mocks pretty much the entire year. If you're a Memphis or Clippers, that's such an easy fit as a backup guard.

[JMAC3]

Comparing prospects to NBA players as long-term comps for roles/skill sets is important, but I do agree that people get too caught up on trying to compare 18 yr old kids to NBA all-stars in their prime at age 26.

This reminds me a few years ago when people thought comparing Brandon Miller to Paul George was a ridiculous comparison. Yes rookie Brandon Miller was never going to be as good as All-NBA prime Paul George from day 1, but if you compare his rookie year and sophomore years to PG he has been much better and now all of sudden it not so crazy to think Miller could reach that point in his prime.

[JMAC3]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

[sikma42]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

Point forward is a broad term. Do you mean he can make reads as a short roller or do you mean you can run offense through him like Lebron/TMac/Luka?

The issue with Cooper is that he doesn’t handle the ball well and a lot of those high motor/out athlete plays may not work as well in the NBA. It may just look out of control unless he grows into dominate athlete.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[bigboi]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

[clyde21]

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

Cooper has 7 assists per 100 poss, Paolo had 5.6 assists per 100 poss. why was Paolo viewed as a point forward but not Coop?

[bigboi]

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

Cooper has 7 assists per 100 poss, Paolo had 5.6 assists per 100 poss. why was Paolo viewed as a point forward but not Coop?

I didn’t follow Paolo at Duke tbh. And honestly Paolo wasn’t expected to be this great. Just watching his tape and catching the little games I did, he looks like a complete different player. That said that still doesn’t answer my question

[JMAC3]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

Point forward is a broad term. Do you mean he can make reads as a short roller or do you mean you can run offense through him like Lebron/TMac/Luka?

The issue with Cooper is that he doesn’t handle the ball well and a lot of those high motor/out athlete plays may not work as well in the NBA. It may just look out of control unless he grows into dominate athlete.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Luka and LeBron are heliocentric players and two of the best players ever to play that style in NBA history. I wouldn't say I expect Cooper Flagg to ever reach that level but I guess it could happen, stranger things have happened in the NBA. Point forward to me means he is going to dominate possessions as the main ball handler like a Draymond, Tatum, Scottie Barnes, Paolo can do... A skill that is necessary if you want to be one of the better forwards in the NBA.

Are there really people who would scoff at taking Cooper Flagg if you knew he was a 20ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg player in the NBA who is a plus defender? I am taking that player #1 all day.

[bigboi]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

Point forward is a broad term. Do you mean he can make reads as a short roller or do you mean you can run offense through him like Lebron/TMac/Luka?

The issue with Cooper is that he doesn’t handle the ball well and a lot of those high motor/out athlete plays may not work as well in the NBA. It may just look out of control unless he grows into dominate athlete.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Luka and LeBron are heliocentric players and two of the best players ever to play that style in NBA history. I wouldn't say I expect Cooper Flagg to ever reach that level but I guess it could happen, stranger things have happened in the NBA. Point forward to me means he is going to dominate possessions as the main ball handler like a Draymond, Tatum, Scottie Barnes, Paolo can do... A skill that is necessary if you want to be one of the better forwards in the NBA.

Are there really people who would scoff at taking Cooper Flagg if you knew he was a 20ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg player in the NBA who is a plus defender? I am taking that player #1 all day.

I’m just confused where this 20 ppg scorer is coming from. This dude is having a historically bad scoring season. So if he peaks at let’s say 18-20 at 44-45% 30% 3p with 7 rpg and 5 apg. That’s a number 1?

[FarBeyondDriven]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

incorrect. He has been a facilitator for several years now. He has less than an assist per game more than last season when he averaged nearly 5 and the year before he averaged just a half an assist less than that.

I see Flagg averaging 5+ assists per game eventually as a pro as he's a better passer than Tatum and Banchero, two guys he's very similar to as a prospect.

#1 pick in the draft

[BigGargamel]

Point forward is a broad term. Do you mean he can make reads as a short roller or do you mean you can run offense through him like Lebron/TMac/Luka?

The issue with Cooper is that he doesn’t handle the ball well and a lot of those high motor/out athlete plays may not work as well in the NBA. It may just look out of control unless he grows into dominate athlete.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Luka and LeBron are heliocentric players and two of the best players ever to play that style in NBA history. I wouldn't say I expect Cooper Flagg to ever reach that level but I guess it could happen, stranger things have happened in the NBA. Point forward to me means he is going to dominate possessions as the main ball handler like a Draymond, Tatum, Scottie Barnes, Paolo can do... A skill that is necessary if you want to be one of the better forwards in the NBA.

Are there really people who would scoff at taking Cooper Flagg if you knew he was a 20ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg player in the NBA who is a plus defender? I am taking that player #1 all day.

I’m just confused where this 20 ppg scorer is coming from. This dude is having a historically bad scoring season. So if he peaks at let’s say 18-20 at 44-45% 30% 3p with 7 rpg and 5 apg. That’s a number 1?

"Historically bad scoring season"

Hyperbole much? It's like you're brand new to how young college prospects develop. Your irrational hate for the guy and his "hype" is really making you look silly in this thread. He's not a "generational prospect" but he's going to be fine. Him and Harper are easily the class of this draft.

He'll probably be a 20/8/5/1/1 player in the NBA. I'm not worried.

[bigboi]

Cooper playmaking is extremely slept on, he has the 4th highest assist % for players over 6'8" over the last 5 college seasons. Trailing Egor, Scottie Barnes...

Guys like Zion, Tatum, Ingram averaged 2 apg at Duke. All have multiple seasons with 5+ assists in the NBA and can operate is true facilitators on offense.

Flagg is at 3.6 apg, but we want to limit that he just doesn't have point forward skills?

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

incorrect. He has been a facilitator for several years now. He has less than an assist per game more than last season when he averaged nearly 5 and the year before he averaged just a half an assist less than that.

I see Flagg averaging 5+ assists per game eventually as a pro as he's a better passer than Tatum and Banchero, two guys he's very similar to as a prospect.

#1 pick in the draft

You’re flat out wrong lmao. Tatum’s job was never to be a facilitator. I watch quite a bit of Celtics basketball. Flagg isn’t a better prospect than Tatum either lmao. Tatum’s offensive game was way more advanced. These lies need to stop. Once again, the way yall describe Flagg, he sounds like a worse version of Ben Simmons. Simmons did everything that Flagg does just better and that isn’t a number 1 pick

[HadAnEffectHere]

Ben Simmons was an experiment to see what would happen if LeBron hated basketball and was terrified of failure.

Simmons was a historically bad shooter whereas Flagg is just not a good shooter.

Simmons also just literally never got better at anything on offense from when he was a 17 year old.

Flagg right now is a more athletic Scottie Barnes and Scottie Barnes is good idk.

Flagg with Barnes' level of shooting is a fringe top 25 player whereas Flagg with a good jumpshot is like the 6th to 10th best player in the league.

[FarBeyondDriven]

You definitely don’t watch Tatum at all. I’m a Celtics fan, Tatum hasn’t been a facilitator until this season and that’s coupled with the fact that his offensive repertoire was way more advanced than Flagg at any stage lol. Same with Zion and Ingram.

Once again, all you dudes keep on hyping up Flagg as a jack of all trades player. We know at least from his college tape that he isn’t a point forward and pretty much his main hype right now is defense. So does Flagg ever become as good as prime Ben Simmons who is a 16/8/8 player with DPOY defense. No one seems able to answer this, if he can’t become that level then why is he being considered the first pick?

incorrect. He has been a facilitator for several years now. He has less than an assist per game more than last season when he averaged nearly 5 and the year before he averaged just a half an assist less than that.

I see Flagg averaging 5+ assists per game eventually as a pro as he's a better passer than Tatum and Banchero, two guys he's very similar to as a prospect.

#1 pick in the draft

You’re flat out wrong lmao. Tatum’s job was never to be a facilitator. I watch quite a bit of Celtics basketball. Flagg isn’t a better prospect than Tatum either lmao. Tatum’s offensive game was way more advanced. These lies need to stop. Once again, the way yall describe Flagg, he sounds like a worse version of Ben Simmons. Simmons did everything that Flagg does just better and that isn’t a number 1 pick

it's you who is flat out wrong. the offense literally runs through Tatum and has for years. Everyone plays off him which is why they shoot so many threes because he commands double teams and it leaves shooters wide open. That's literally his job. PnR to get a switch if necessary, break down his man to get his shot and if help comes over dish to wide open shooter. He's obviously not a point guard but he facilitates for others which is why his assists have hovered around 5 per game for the past several seasons.

Here's what I'm talking about. If this isn't facilitating I don't know what it means then

Watch on YouTube

;t=6s

[FarBeyondDriven]

incorrect. He has been a facilitator for several years now. He has less than an assist per game more than last season when he averaged nearly 5 and the year before he averaged just a half an assist less than that.

I see Flagg averaging 5+ assists per game eventually as a pro as he's a better passer than Tatum and Banchero, two guys he's very similar to as a prospect.

#1 pick in the draft

You’re flat out wrong lmao. Tatum’s job was never to be a facilitator. I watch quite a bit of Celtics basketball. Flagg isn’t a better prospect than Tatum either lmao. Tatum’s offensive game was way more advanced. These lies need to stop. Once again, the way yall describe Flagg, he sounds like a worse version of Ben Simmons. Simmons did everything that Flagg does just better and that isn’t a number 1 pick

it's you who is flat out wrong. the offense literally runs through Tatum and has for years. Everyone plays off him which is why they shoot so many threes because he commands double teams and it leaves shooters wide open. That's literally his job. PnR to get a switch if necessary, break down his man to get his shot and if help comes over dish to wide open shooter. He's obviously not a point guard but he facilitates for others which is why his assists have hovered around 5 per game for the past several seasons.

Here's what I'm talking about. If this isn't facilitating I don't know what it means then

Watch on YouTube

;t=6s

you don't seem to remember college Tatum and are embellishing current Tatum. He doesn't attack the basket. His "bag" consists of mid-range dancing and step back jumpers. The reason he's a good scorer is because his release is so high and he creates enough separation with his feints, jab steps and step backs. But he wasn't doing much of that in college. College isn't conducive to wings having the space to operate that way which is why Melo being able to do it was so damn impressive. Flagg might not have all that wiggle but he, unlike Tatum, can attack the rim and he has a pull up mid-range jumper which oddly enough isn't something Tatum ever did. Based on his athleticism, size, advanced playmaking at his age and defense, Flagg is a better prospect than Tatum. But he has a lot of work to do if he wants to become as good of a pro as him.

[bigboi]

Ben Simmons was an experiment to see what would happen if LeBron hated basketball and was terrified of failure.

Simmons was a historically bad shooter whereas Flagg is just not a good shooter.

Simmons also just literally never got better at anything on offense from when he was a 17 year old.

Flagg right now is a more athletic Scottie Barnes and Scottie Barnes is good idk.

Flagg with Barnes' level of shooting is a fringe top 25 player whereas Flagg with a good jumpshot is like the 6th to 10th best player in the league.

Buddy, Flagg is a historically bad shooter. It’s hilarious how yall keep acting like Flagg is a good shooter. The guy is shooting 42% lmao and 22% from 3. Miss me with the nonsense. Flagg will never be the passer that Simmons is either

[bigboi]

incorrect. He has been a facilitator for several years now. He has less than an assist per game more than last season when he averaged nearly 5 and the year before he averaged just a half an assist less than that.

I see Flagg averaging 5+ assists per game eventually as a pro as he's a better passer than Tatum and Banchero, two guys he's very similar to as a prospect.

#1 pick in the draft

You’re flat out wrong lmao. Tatum’s job was never to be a facilitator. I watch quite a bit of Celtics basketball. Flagg isn’t a better prospect than Tatum either lmao. Tatum’s offensive game was way more advanced. These lies need to stop. Once again, the way yall describe Flagg, he sounds like a worse version of Ben Simmons. Simmons did everything that Flagg does just better and that isn’t a number 1 pick

it's you who is flat out wrong. the offense literally runs through Tatum and has for years. Everyone plays off him which is why they shoot so many threes because he commands double teams and it leaves shooters wide open. That's literally his job. PnR to get a switch if necessary, break down his man to get his shot and if help comes over dish to wide open shooter. He's obviously not a point guard but he facilitates for others which is why his assists have hovered around 5 per game for the past several seasons.

Here's what I'm talking about. If this isn't facilitating I don't know what it means then

Watch on YouTube

;t=6s

Offense running through Tatum and Brown doesn’t mean that they’re the facilitator. Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about lmao. Smart, Holiday, White have been the primary Celtics facilitators in the past. Please stop talking Celtics basketball because you’re embarrassing yourself.

[bigboi]

You’re flat out wrong lmao. Tatum’s job was never to be a facilitator. I watch quite a bit of Celtics basketball. Flagg isn’t a better prospect than Tatum either lmao. Tatum’s offensive game was way more advanced. These lies need to stop. Once again, the way yall describe Flagg, he sounds like a worse version of Ben Simmons. Simmons did everything that Flagg does just better and that isn’t a number 1 pick

it's you who is flat out wrong. the offense literally runs through Tatum and has for years. Everyone plays off him which is why they shoot so many threes because he commands double teams and it leaves shooters wide open. That's literally his job. PnR to get a switch if necessary, break down his man to get his shot and if help comes over dish to wide open shooter. He's obviously not a point guard but he facilitates for others which is why his assists have hovered around 5 per game for the past several seasons.

Here's what I'm talking about. If this isn't facilitating I don't know what it means then

Watch on YouTube

;t=6s

you don't seem to remember college Tatum and are embellishing current Tatum. He doesn't attack the basket. His "bag" consists of mid-range dancing and step back jumpers. The reason he's a good scorer is because his release is so high and he creates enough separation with his feints, jab steps and step backs. But he wasn't doing much of that in college. College isn't conducive to wings having the space to operate that way which is why Melo being able to do it was so damn impressive. Flagg might not have all that wiggle but he, unlike Tatum, can attack the rim and he has a pull up mid-range jumper which oddly enough isn't something Tatum ever did. Based on his athleticism, size, advanced playmaking at his age and defense, Flagg is a better prospect than Tatum. But he has a lot of work to do if he wants to become as good of a pro as him.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2017/7/27/16053954/jayson-tatum-player-comparisons-by-nba-scouts-boston-celtics

https://www.theringer.com/2017/06/22/nba/2017-nba-draft-jayson-tatum-duke-debate-552b94ebc7e6

Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Tatum’s game is completely based on skill rather than athleticism which makes the Flagg comparison even more nonsense. And yes, his bag is MUCH better than Flagg. Flagg can’t even shoot lmao. Please stop the nonsense.

Watch on YouTube

Flagg isn’t even close to Tatum as a ball handler