Lonzo Ball

[E-Balla]

short of winning the lottery, I don't think you can

unless you somehow convince melo that boston is the place to be

Don't need to. The Knicks are garbage. We'll probably end with like the 5th or 6th best odds. At that point anything is possible. Plus Ball+Knicks will be amazing. Its his best fit imo.

I still think the Suns is his best fit imo. The great thing with the Knicks and KP is all of these guys fit extremely well. DSJ could be a great fit running the pick n roll or pick n pop with him. I think teams would have a really hard time stopping that duo. Fultz is a great fit because KP needs another scorer to go alongside of him.

6-6 PG with crazy range + 7-3 PF with crazy range. *drools*

[clyde21]

How does he compare to pre-injury Shaun Livingston?

[Upperclass]

How does he compare to pre-injury Shaun Livingston?

This is not a bad comparison. He has more in common with Shaun, than Jason Kidd actually. Similar athletes, although Ball is probably springier. Livingston had slightly better vision. Shaun was "longer" and a better defender. Ball the better shooter.. But the way they move and see the floor is actually pretty similar and neither had/has an advanced handle. And although he was a really good passer.. it was apparent that Shaun wasnt a full-time PG in the NBA almost immediately. Ball may endup better in this regard, in the run & gun era. But I mentioned before that I think Ball ends up off the Ball as well at the 2, or as a backup "utility" guard similar to Carter-Williams.

[doordoor123]

Jason Kidd is a bad comparison IMO. Ball will probably be more of a mix between Kidd and John Wall. He's that quick, where he's just going to beat people off the dribble with his first step/speed and he should run exclusively pick and rolls. At the time Jason Kidd was elite, teams needed players that could create without a pick. Nowadays players like Russell, Wall, Schroder, Teague, Collison, they all operate almost exclusively in PnR situations. You can still be elite without having a Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas-level handle. It's kind of like how players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard can still be elite centers without offensive game.

[WalterBenjamin]

Jason Kidd is a bad comparison IMO. Ball will probably be more of a mix between Kidd and John Wall. He's that quick, where he's just going to beat people off the dribble with his first step/speed and he should run exclusively pick and rolls. At the time Jason Kidd was elite, teams needed players that could create without a pick. Nowadays players like Russell, Wall, Schroder, Teague, Collison, they all operate almost exclusively in PnR situations. You can still be elite without having a Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas-level handle. It's kind of like how players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard can still be elite centers without offensive game.

Are u for real? Not only is he in a differnet class compared to Wall regarding athleticysm. He is a bad PnR player.

[Duke4life831]

Jason Kidd is a bad comparison IMO. Ball will probably be more of a mix between Kidd and John Wall. He's that quick, where he's just going to beat people off the dribble with his first step/speed and he should run exclusively pick and rolls. At the time Jason Kidd was elite, teams needed players that could create without a pick. Nowadays players like Russell, Wall, Schroder, Teague, Collison, they all operate almost exclusively in PnR situations. You can still be elite without having a Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas-level handle. It's kind of like how players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard can still be elite centers without offensive game.

Im a huge fan of Ball but no way am I saying Ball is quicker than a young Kidd. Jason Kidd was a hell of an athlete when he was young.

[doordoor123]

Jason Kidd is a bad comparison IMO. Ball will probably be more of a mix between Kidd and John Wall. He's that quick, where he's just going to beat people off the dribble with his first step/speed and he should run exclusively pick and rolls. At the time Jason Kidd was elite, teams needed players that could create without a pick. Nowadays players like Russell, Wall, Schroder, Teague, Collison, they all operate almost exclusively in PnR situations. You can still be elite without having a Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas-level handle. It's kind of like how players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard can still be elite centers without offensive game.

Im a huge fan of Ball but no way am I saying Ball is quicker than a young Kidd. Jason Kidd was a hell of an athlete when he was young.

Not saying he was quicker, but Ball definitely has a very quick first step.

[doordoor123]

Jason Kidd is a bad comparison IMO. Ball will probably be more of a mix between Kidd and John Wall. He's that quick, where he's just going to beat people off the dribble with his first step/speed and he should run exclusively pick and rolls. At the time Jason Kidd was elite, teams needed players that could create without a pick. Nowadays players like Russell, Wall, Schroder, Teague, Collison, they all operate almost exclusively in PnR situations. You can still be elite without having a Kyrie Irving or Isaiah Thomas-level handle. It's kind of like how players like DeAndre Jordan and Dwight Howard can still be elite centers without offensive game.

Are u for real? Not only is he in a differnet class compared to Wall regarding athleticysm. He is a bad PnR player.

I'm not disagreeing. Saying he will play in the same style as Wall. And his P&R will be much better with the space in the NBA and actual guys that know how set good screens and roll to the basket. He will be driving a lot more than he does now in the NBA and he'll get there with screens. And yes, I think he's underrated athletically because of his playing style. He's much quicker attacking on a fast break. Thought the same thing with LaVine when he was at UCLA (though LaVine is quicker).

[PLO]

Lonzo Ball will not be "beating people" off the dribble in the NBA: he's a great talent, but he's no point guard at the next level.

[Marcus]

Lonzo Ball will not be "beating people" off the dribble in the NBA: he's a great talent, but he's no point guard at the next level.

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

[WalterBenjamin]

We can't go that alley. How many players are better PnR players in college with less space around them. He has the best spaceing in UCLA. If he isn't showing a PnR game in that team then we can't be saying outh of thin air he will do it at a good level in the NBA. It ain't projectable, at least not in a possitive way. And I think even in the best scenario he can't be projected as an efficient PnR player. Not with that shoot.

Reggarding Ball in general. I think that his playing style is coachable. That is why I think he is somewhat overrated. He thinks the game a different way. But didn't the playes and coaches also thought the game different even 2-3 years ago in the NBA.

And one thing also. What if (if its just as little as 1% chance) his shoot ain't good for the NBA?! What can Ball deffer to in his game if that is the case?

[Marcus]

We can't go that alley. How many players are better PnR players in college with less space around them. He has the best spaceing in UCLA. If he isn't showing a PnR game in that team then we can't be saying outh of thin air he will do it at a good level in the NBA. It ain't projectable, at least not in a possitive way. And I think even in the best scenario he can't be projected as an efficient PnR player. Not with that shoot.

Reggarding Ball in general. I think that his playing style is coachable. That is why I think he is somewhat overrated. He thinks the game a different way. But didn't the playes and coaches also thought the game different even 2-3 years ago in the NBA.

And one thing also. What if (if its just as little as 1% chance) his shoot ain't good for the NBA?! What can Ball deffer to in his game if that is the case?

Real quick. What do you like about his game if anything? Not sure I've seen one positive thing from you about him since you started posting here.

I ask because I've seen a few posters knock the kid strictly because they don't like the hype and picked him apart strictly to try and slow that down from other posters.

[PLO]

Lonzo Ball will not be "beating people" off the dribble in the NBA: he's a great talent, but he's no point guard at the next level.

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

Because he lacks (almost completely in some areas) the skillset to play the point. Basically can't dribble/finish in traffic - he has no mid range/close to the basket game. The only time he scores close to the basket is when the ball is out of his hands and he sneaks behind the defense for the alley-oop. Compare him to Fultz (or even DSJ), these guys are proto-typical PGs - three level threats who can take on double teams and still score.

Personally I think there are several reasons for Ball's inability in these areas: one is his handle which isn't at NBA PG level - you can see this on the few drives he has done this season - its head-down-straight-ahead stuff into massive defensive holes - he just doesn't have the trickery required to be an NBA starter at the point. The other is his shot - he can't shoot from mid-range because of how low his shot is and how slow it is, which is the reason he does those massive step backs for his 3 pointers.If he shot from mid-range he would be easily blocked.

These are the reasons why I think he'll be a SG at the next level and why I don't think he's a top talent in this draft. I really like him - his vision is amazing - but if you draft him as a SG (which I think is his position) it will nix a lot of the use of that vision he has. He could well fit on the 6ers if Simmons is our starting point, and in fact would probably fit on the 6ers as well as any other team if Simmons is the long term answer for us as a facilitator.

[Duke4life831]

Lonzo Ball will not be "beating people" off the dribble in the NBA: he's a great talent, but he's no point guard at the next level.

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

I also dont get why he wont be able to beat people off the dribble. Its not like hes Kendall Marshall and is super slow. Ball is actually pretty quick. Does he need to tighten up his handles? Sure he does but thats a pretty trainable trait. Even though UCLA rarely runs it I think he has great potential to run the PnR as well. Guy are going to have to guard him out to 25ft because of his range, add that to his quickness I think he has the potential to be able to beat guys off the dribble.

Plus I dont think that will ever have to be a big part of his game for him to be a very successful PG.

[PLO]

Lonzo Ball will not be "beating people" off the dribble in the NBA: he's a great talent, but he's no point guard at the next level.

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

I also dont get why he wont be able to beat people off the dribble. Its not like hes Kendall Marshall and is super slow. Ball is actually pretty quick. Does he need to tighten up his handles? Sure he does but thats a pretty trainable trait. Even though UCLA rarely runs it I think he has great potential to run the PnR as well. Guy are going to have to guard him out to 25ft because of his range, add that to his quickness I think he has the potential to be able to beat guys off the dribble.

Plus I dont think that will ever have to be a big part of his game for him to be a very successful PG.

The problem is that he hasn't shown any ability at all to beat people of the dribble at the college level, and in terms of that being coachable I agree he could get better at it but I think it very unlikely he'll be starting-PG serviceable because that's really one of those skills where you've either got it or you aint. And Ball aint got it.

[Duke4life831]

Why wouldn't he be a PG in the league?

I also dont get why he wont be able to beat people off the dribble. Its not like hes Kendall Marshall and is super slow. Ball is actually pretty quick. Does he need to tighten up his handles? Sure he does but thats a pretty trainable trait. Even though UCLA rarely runs it I think he has great potential to run the PnR as well. Guy are going to have to guard him out to 25ft because of his range, add that to his quickness I think he has the potential to be able to beat guys off the dribble.

Plus I dont think that will ever have to be a big part of his game for him to be a very successful PG.

The problem is that he hasn't shown any ability at all to beat people of the dribble at the college level, and in terms of that being coachable I agree he could get better at it but I think it very unlikely he'll be starting-PG serviceable because that's really one of those skills where you've either got it or you aint. And Ball aint got it.

25% of Fultz shots come at the rim and finishes at a 61% rate. 36.5% of Ball's shots come at the rim and finishes at a 78% rate. So Ball actually only attempts about one less shot at the rim per game than Fultz even though Fultz puts up 7 more shots a game. Either Ball is one of the greatest off ball cutters of all time and is getting close to 4 alley-oops a game or your underestimating how much he actually gets to the rim. Is it a strength? No but he has shown he can do it.

[Derento]

He is extremely efficient when he does shoot off the dribble which is a very good sign.

[Upperclass]

^^ I think he is getting quite a few alleyoops per game, and also fast break points off of steals and turnovers.

[WalterBenjamin]

Real quick. What do you like about his game if anything? Not sure I've seen one positive thing from you about him since you started posting here.

I ask because I've seen a few posters knock the kid strictly because they don't like the hype and picked him apart strictly to try and slow that down from other posters.

Passing for sure. He ain't taking a dribble more if he can pass to a teammate and get a shoot that is generaly a good shoot.

I love Fultz. But UCLA wouldn't be near the level it is with him as with Ball. The rationality of Balls play is impresive as **** and it doesn't seem as he is making concious decisions; just plays instinctivly. He is making the most with what he has for sure. But I just think that he has too little NBA tools in his game because of the form of the shoot.(Spot up shooter maby not problematic). The form of the shoot is also the reason why i think he will loose time to making it work when he should be adding to his game not building the foundations.

I don't believe in the maximization of his quallity with obvious flaws as that. NBA players try to tighten their game in evry sense with the ball. Can't we espect him to make that transition and will it be succesful?!

Ther u have it the positive aspects of his game and the scenario in whitch he won't live up to the potential.

[PLO]

I also dont get why he wont be able to beat people off the dribble. Its not like hes Kendall Marshall and is super slow. Ball is actually pretty quick. Does he need to tighten up his handles? Sure he does but thats a pretty trainable trait. Even though UCLA rarely runs it I think he has great potential to run the PnR as well. Guy are going to have to guard him out to 25ft because of his range, add that to his quickness I think he has the potential to be able to beat guys off the dribble.

Plus I dont think that will ever have to be a big part of his game for him to be a very successful PG.

The problem is that he hasn't shown any ability at all to beat people of the dribble at the college level, and in terms of that being coachable I agree he could get better at it but I think it very unlikely he'll be starting-PG serviceable because that's really one of those skills where you've either got it or you aint. And Ball aint got it.

25% of Fultz shots come at the rim and finishes at a 61% rate. 36.5% of Ball's shots come at the rim and finishes at a 78% rate. So Ball actually only attempts about one less shot at the rim per game than Fultz even though Fultz puts up 7 more shots a game. Either Ball is one of the greatest off ball cutters of all time and is getting close to 4 alley-oops a game or your underestimating how much he actually gets to the rim. Is it a strength? No but he has shown he can do it.

If you can show me one piece of footage where Ball finishes at the rim apart from alley oop I'd reckon it's probably from a one on one in training