Scoot Henderson

[clyde21]

So you just don't consider defense at all when ranking them?

i said, other than Wemby, none of them have differentiated themselves defensively. what is it that you didn't understand about that?

righttttttt, so when you rank Jarace Walker on your big board and Scoot on your big board. Neither one gets bumped or negatively affected based on defense. In your mind they are equivalent on defense?

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

[mattao313]

i said, other than Wemby, none of them have differentiated themselves defensively. what is it that you didn't understand about that?

righttttttt, so when you rank Jarace Walker on your big board and Scoot on your big board. Neither one gets bumped or negatively affected based on defense. In your mind they are equivalent on defense?

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

Oh cmon man the whole allure of walkers defense is versatility. You know the SIZE and athleticism to defense multiple positions. Stop playing lol.

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[JMAC3]

i said, other than Wemby, none of them have differentiated themselves defensively. what is it that you didn't understand about that?

righttttttt, so when you rank Jarace Walker on your big board and Scoot on your big board. Neither one gets bumped or negatively affected based on defense. In your mind they are equivalent on defense?

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

You don't think Jarace Walker blocking 6 shots vs Auburn in his teams most important game of the year to date isn't him proving it on the court? I can't with you anymore man.

[Big J]

https://youtu.be/Wsxg5Czd-xo?t=837

Here's some more defensive gems. Brother wasn't lying when he said this thread was gonna be a gold mine.

[clyde21]

righttttttt, so when you rank Jarace Walker on your big board and Scoot on your big board. Neither one gets bumped or negatively affected based on defense. In your mind they are equivalent on defense?

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

Oh cmon man the whole allure of walkers defense is versatility. You know the SIZE and athleticism to defense multiple positions. Stop playing lol.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

just b/c someone has the size/athleticism to defend multiple positions doesn't mean they can do it - you want to go down the list of wings and bigs with 'size and athleticism' that can't defend worth a lick?

you actually have to prove it on the court - i know crazy concept.

[clyde21]

righttttttt, so when you rank Jarace Walker on your big board and Scoot on your big board. Neither one gets bumped or negatively affected based on defense. In your mind they are equivalent on defense?

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

You don't think Jarace Walker blocking 6 shots vs Auburn in his teams most important game of the year to date isn't him proving it on the court? I can't with you anymore man.

You don't think Scoot recording 5 stocks (1 steal and 4 blocks) against the Hustle (a team full of 1st rounders/drafted players) was proving it on the court?

also Jarace averages 1.2bpg, acting like a 6blk performance against Auburn is the norm for him is hysterical. the funny thing all those 'doesn't play with force' criticisms levied against Scoot in this thread can be levied twice as much at Jarace who could've dominated collegiate bball much more than he actually did just based on his physical profile alone.

[mattao313]

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

Oh cmon man the whole allure of walkers defense is versatility. You know the SIZE and athleticism to defense multiple positions. Stop playing lol.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

just b/c someone has the size/athleticism to defend multiple positions doesn't mean they can do it - you want to go down the list of wings and bigs with 'size and athleticism' that can't defend worth a lick?

you actually have to prove it on the court - i know crazy concept.

So Walker hasn't shown he can be a versatile defender on the court? A 6"8 defense heavy prospect hasn't separated himself from a 6'2 position locked guard?

I know it's hard but it's ok to be wrong sometimes.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[clyde21]

Oh cmon man the whole allure of walkers defense is versatility. You know the SIZE and athleticism to defense multiple positions. Stop playing lol.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

just b/c someone has the size/athleticism to defend multiple positions doesn't mean they can do it - you want to go down the list of wings and bigs with 'size and athleticism' that can't defend worth a lick?

you actually have to prove it on the court - i know crazy concept.

So Walker hasn't shown he can be a versatile defender on the court? A 6"8 defense heavy prospect hasn't separated himself from a 6'2 position locked guard?

I know it's hard but it's ok to be wrong sometimes.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

no, he hasn't proven to be great versatile defender at all so far. are you guys actually watching the games or going by height/weight listings?

[JMAC3]

no, because I don't assume one is better defensively b/c herp derp one is taller. players actually have to, you know, prove it on the court, and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest I should rank Walker higher than Scoot because of his defense.

but again, if Walker is such a better defender than Scoot, why do you have Scoot rated higher? better yet, none of us understand why you have Scoot ranked lotto at all at this point.

You don't think Jarace Walker blocking 6 shots vs Auburn in his teams most important game of the year to date isn't him proving it on the court? I can't with you anymore man.

You don't think Scoot recording 5 stocks (1 steal and 4 blocks) against the Hustle (a team full of 1st rounders/drafted players) was proving it on the court?

also Jarace averages 1.2bpg, acting like a 6blk performance against Auburn is the norm for him is hysterical. the funny thing all those 'doesn't play with force' criticisms levied against Scoot in this thread can be levied twice as much at Jarace who could've dominated collegiate bball much more than he actually did just based on his physical profile alone.

Did I act like it was the norm? I mean I picked that game out for a reason no? but anyways 90% of people would clearly rank Jarace as a better defensive prospect than Scoot. If you want to plant your flag that both are same level than go for it.

Also, is this the game you are talking about with Scoot?
https://stats.gleague.nba.com/game/2022200301/
I see 3 blocks and 1 steal, probably one of his better defensive performances.

For the season though his 1.2 steals per game is pretty low for a guard to try and sell us on he is a sleeping tiger on the defensive end. Significantly lower than guys like Thompson twins, Cason Wallace, Reece Beekman and Jaylen Clark- actual guys that are being sold as good defenders at the next level.

[clyde21]

You don't think Jarace Walker blocking 6 shots vs Auburn in his teams most important game of the year to date isn't him proving it on the court? I can't with you anymore man.

You don't think Scoot recording 5 stocks (1 steal and 4 blocks) against the Hustle (a team full of 1st rounders/drafted players) was proving it on the court?

also Jarace averages 1.2bpg, acting like a 6blk performance against Auburn is the norm for him is hysterical. the funny thing all those 'doesn't play with force' criticisms levied against Scoot in this thread can be levied twice as much at Jarace who could've dominated collegiate bball much more than he actually did just based on his physical profile alone.

Did I act like it was the norm? I mean I picked that game out for a reason no? but anyways 90% of people would clearly rank Jarace as a better defensive prospect than Scoot. If you want to plant your flag that both are same level than go for it.

Also, is this the game you are talking about with Scoot?
https://stats.gleague.nba.com/game/2022200301/
I see 3 blocks and 1 steal, probably one of his better defensive performances.

For the season though his 1.2 steals per game is pretty low for a guard to try and sell us on he is a sleeping tiger on the defensive end. Significantly lower than guys like Thompson twins, Cason Wallace, Reece Beekman and Jaylen Clark- actual guys that are being sold as good defenders at the next level.

i mean you're using it to prove a point without realizing it's a huge outlier. I can just as easily use Scoot's outlier defensive performances to prove he's a good defender.

and I can just as easily make an argument Jarace's 1.2bpg is low for his physical profile at his level. what's your point? Roberts actually averaged more blocks for Houston and he's half the athlete that Jarace is.

[The-Power]

That's not what you're doing though. What you have cited are NOT on-court ratings. What you cited are boxscore-based metrics that don't inform you about impact. I posted the on-court ratings and the resulting net ratings that I think you actually meant to use.

You posted a link that only showed 19 games for Scoot. Scoot played 25 games. I'm not going off an incomplete data set.

I'm not saying that offensive rating and defensive rating all the be all, end all metric. But they are commonly used metrics that people use to calculate the player's value on a particular end of the court.

And by taking the offensive rating and subtracting the defensive rating, you're essentially combining those 2 stats together, to see how good the player is on both ends of the court, no?

You have not told us yet what the ORTG and DRTG you posted measure. Or do you just post them without knowing what they capture?

And the data I posted is not incomplete. It's for the RS. If you want to look at the other 6 games, you literally just have to make the selection under ‘season type’. His on-court net rating is +2.7 for those 6 games, by the way.

[Hal14]

That's not what you're doing though. What you have cited are NOT on-court ratings. What you cited are boxscore-based metrics that don't inform you about impact. I posted the on-court ratings and the resulting net ratings that I think you actually meant to use.

You posted a link that only showed 19 games for Scoot. Scoot played 25 games. I'm not going off an incomplete data set.

I'm not saying that offensive rating and defensive rating all the be all, end all metric. But they are commonly used metrics that people use to calculate the player's value on a particular end of the court.

And by taking the offensive rating and subtracting the defensive rating, you're essentially combining those 2 stats together, to see how good the player is on both ends of the court, no?

You have not told us yet what the ORTG and DRTG you posted measure. Or do you just post them without knowing what they capture?

And the data I posted is not incomplete. It's for the RS. If you want to look at the other 6 games, you literally just have to make the selection under ‘season type’. His on-court net rating is +2.7 for those 6 games, by the way.

Dude I know what offensive rating and defensive rating means lol. Offensive rating is how many points his team scored per 100 possessions with him on the floor. Defensive rating is how many points the other team scored per 100 possessions with him on the floor.

[The-Power]

You posted a link that only showed 19 games for Scoot. Scoot played 25 games. I'm not going off an incomplete data set.

I'm not saying that offensive rating and defensive rating all the be all, end all metric. But they are commonly used metrics that people use to calculate the player's value on a particular end of the court.

And by taking the offensive rating and subtracting the defensive rating, you're essentially combining those 2 stats together, to see how good the player is on both ends of the court, no?

You have not told us yet what the ORTG and DRTG you posted measure. Or do you just post them without knowing what they capture?

And the data I posted is not incomplete. It's for the RS. If you want to look at the other 6 games, you literally just have to make the selection under ‘season type’. His on-court net rating is +2.7 for those 6 games, by the way.

Dude I know what offensive rating and defensive rating means lol. Offensive rating is how many points his team scored per 100 possessions with him on the floor. Defensive rating is how many points the other team scored per 100 possessions with him on the floor.

See, and this is what multiple people have been telling you in this thread: this is NOT what you posted. Your ORTG and DRTG are boxscore-versions, also called ‘individual ORTG/DRTG’, developed by Dean Oliver.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
You can read it up here.

The on-court ORTG and DRTG (which you wanted to post) are the ones I, and others, have posted from the official G-League website. And they look very different from the ones you posted, because they measure entirely different things.

[The-Power]

Small guards who have high usage (30%+) are always bad defenders. I don't think it's a coincidence. There is only so much energy you can expend in a game on both ends.

Energy is part of it. But I'd argue it's also mindset. If you are your team's star and carry it on offense, you just can't have the mindset to play defense like someone whose playing time and NBA career depends on it.

So yeah, it's very valid to ask: is Scoot good enough at carrying your offense that you are willing to take a hit on defense? And if you believe his role on offense should be as a second or tertiary option, the question becomes whether that is worth drafting with the 2nd or 3rd pick – even if you believe that he can be a good defender in this role.

I'd like to take a step back and evaluate Scoot independent of the hype and highlights that are naturally present in the mind. And I'd like to ask myself the question: do I buy the shooting upside and, if not, can I justify ranking him even at #3? Because historically, I've been very skeptical of PGs who lack a reliable jumper (especially pull-up 3, but off-ball shooting also matters).

In some cases, it has worked out. Morant is the most recent example. Fox also has taken an important step this year (but he seemed to have been available in trade talks earlier, so I'm not sure he's really a success-story yet – especially since we haven't seen him in the playoffs either).

But in a lot of other cases, it has not worked out. In terms of recent top-picks, DSJ is an example. Mudiay is another one. Suggs could be next in line. Athleticism played a big role in their appeal and a lot of people were willing to bet on their physical profile believing the questionable shot will either come around or not matter all that much in the NBA.

Not sure if this thread is the right place to have an honest, constructive and open-minded (and open-ended!) debate about Scoot's ranking, though. Seeing how the two factions are currently approaching this topic, I'm inclined to believe it is not.

[clyde21]

people just need to be honest with themselves with Scoot, either you have him top 5 or you don't, there is no way you can have issues with his size, shooting, finishing, defense and his overall archetype and still have him top 5. if I did I know I wouldn't.

[Big J]

Some of us here aren’t ready to admit that Scoot has any flaws in his game.

[Hal14]

Small guards who have high usage (30%+) are always bad defenders. I don't think it's a coincidence. There is only so much energy you can expend in a game on both ends.

Universally (I haven't found an exception yet), the guards we are talking about as good or great defenders always have usage rates roughly maxing out at 25% USG.

So the real question here you should be asking is whether Scoot is a 30% usage guy who will suck on D or a 25% usg guy who could excel on D. Coaches and GM's should ask the same thing.

Just checked CP3's usage data and this checks out.

Marcus Smart always has really low usage too.

[Hal14]

Someone on a different board on here made a good comp for Scoot...Baron Davis

[Big J]

Someone on a different board on here made a good comp for Scoot...Baron Davis

B Diddy was a monster athlete. Look at the Kirilenko dunk. Scoot is only doing that dunk in his dreams. Jay Williams is a better comp.

[EvanZ]

Someone on a different board on here made a good comp for Scoot...Baron Davis

Man, I wish. Baron was special tho.