Okafor or Towns? Which center is the better pick?

[Skin]

Towns is top heavy. There is no way he is quick enough to be a PF on the next level and his lower body strength is no match to Jahlil's. I wouldn't be surprised if he has injury problems when he gets into the NBA.

Saying "no way" is too extreme.

[Justwar]

And in the past few games, Cals plan to get towns to hit the blocks has worked. Much more effective. And he has the jumpshot, just doesn't need it right now.

[DickGrayson]

Worm, you'll slowly notice some on these boards are worshipped as posters. They could of been working for Givony but chose wendys because of the politics.

Okafor just needs to learn how to defend, period, but he has no problem whatsoever athletically, unless the board thinks that MArc Gasol does have a problem defensively too.

Towns is not a defensive player, his best attributes are passing from the high post, length and shooting touch.

Justwar, you should be out of any discussions regarding UK prospects, you cant be objective.

Towns averages like 5 blocks per 40 minutes and has great instincts defensively...if Towns wasn't a defensive player, he wouldn't be a top 5 pick.

Town leads the best defensive team in the nation along with WCS.

[DickGrayson]

There's no place for this argument to go since I think he is. He looks faster, quicker and like he can jump higher. At least to me.

Towns is athletic because he can run very fast for his size.
Think of Nene.

However.

Towns doesn't jump high off the floor or play above the rim all the time. He can improve at this.

Towns is more athletic than Okafor. For sure.

Towns is the best big man to me in this draft, but he doesnt have weaknesses. People who close the book on Towns are foolish, he make up for his disadvantages(doesnt have a freaky reach or wingspan, doesnt jump like Drummond, Jordan, Howard etc)

I think Towns will be a more effective rebounding/shot blocking version of Nene. Definitely all star potential.



and just because Okafor isn't more athletic doesn't mean Okafor won't be successful, I think Okafor will average 22-24 ppg in the NBA 3-4 years from now.

His rebounding and defense will be question, but his offensive cannot be denied. He will be an NBA starter day 1.

[Justwar]

There's no place for this argument to go since I think he is. He looks faster, quicker and like he can jump higher. At least to me.

Towns is athletic because he can run very fast for his size.
Think of Nene.

However.

Towns doesn't jump high off the floor or play above the rim all the time. He can improve at this.

Towns is more athletic than Okafor. For sure.

Towns is the best big man to me in this draft, but he doesnt have weaknesses. People who close the book on Towns are foolish, he make up for his disadvantages(doesnt have a freaky reach or wingspan, doesnt jump like Drummond, Jordan, Howard etc)

I think Towns will be a more effective rebounding/shot blocking version of Nene. Definitely all star potential.



and just because Okafor isn't more athletic doesn't mean Okafor won't be successful, I think Okafor will average 22-24 ppg in the NBA 3-4 years from now.

His rebounding and defense will be question, but his offensive cannot be denied. He will be an NBA starter day 1.

7'0" and a 7'4" wingspan is great. 36 inch max vert and 29 inch no step vert is very good.

[jpengland]

I really do not understand why Okafor is a consensus top pick.

C's that do not protect the rim/play defense are simply not very valuable in the NBA today and are exceptionally difficult to build around. His best case is prime Al Jefferson (for a longer period) as far as I can see and that is simply not something I would want to build around.

[E-Balla]

I really do not understand why Okafor is a consensus top pick.

C's that do not protect the rim/play defense are simply not very valuable in the NBA today and are exceptionally difficult to build around. His best case is prime Al Jefferson (for a longer period) as far as I can see and that is simply not something I would want to build around.

If you think offensively and defensively he won't be way better than Al Jefferson that's your problem. He's already bigger, stronger, faster, and quicker than Al Jefferson as an 18 year old. His worst case is bigger, stronger, faster Al Jefferson, most likely is Demarcus Cousins with a brain/less defensive rebounding, and best case is Moses Malone (but better at playmaking/post moves and worse on the defensive boards).

All of these negatives people have about Jahlil were said in spades about Marc Gasol but he lost weight and started to play great positional defense once he was in the league and nothing is stopping Jahlil from losing 10 pounds and being taught defensive principals (because we all know Coach K doesn't teach them defense).

[jpengland]

I really do not understand why Okafor is a consensus top pick.

C's that do not protect the rim/play defense are simply not very valuable in the NBA today and are exceptionally difficult to build around. His best case is prime Al Jefferson (for a longer period) as far as I can see and that is simply not something I would want to build around.

If you think offensively and defensively he won't be way better than Al Jefferson that's your problem. He's already bigger, stronger, faster, and quicker than Al Jefferson as an 18 year old. His worst case is bigger, stronger, faster Al Jefferson, most likely is Demarcus Cousins with a brain/less defensive rebounding, and best case is Moses Malone (but better at playmaking/post moves and worse on the defensive boards).

All of these negatives people have about Jahlil were said in spades about Marc Gasol but he lost weight and started to play great positional defense once he was in the league and nothing is stopping Jahlil from losing 10 pounds and being taught defensive principals (because we all know Coach K doesn't teach them defense).

It's totally unreasonable to expect any player to follow a Marc Gasol trajectory, though. And I don't see Okafor showing signs of ever being the intelligent player Gasol is.

I certainly don't see him being better than Al Jefferson defensively, his rim protection stats are some of the worst of college big men entering the NBA in the last 5 years and I believe he is in the bottom 3 alongside JJ Hickson and Vucevic (I read the article a few days ago and working off memory).

Fact is, it's very difficult to build around a C who doesn't protect the rim, and stats and the eye test show that it is very unlikely he will ever be even an average rim protector and I would never waste a number 1 pick (especially in a decent draft class) on a player that is difficult to build a team around.

It's easy to get excited about big men who can score in the post - but the primary role of a C is to protect that rim.

[E-Balla]

I really do not understand why Okafor is a consensus top pick.

C's that do not protect the rim/play defense are simply not very valuable in the NBA today and are exceptionally difficult to build around. His best case is prime Al Jefferson (for a longer period) as far as I can see and that is simply not something I would want to build around.

If you think offensively and defensively he won't be way better than Al Jefferson that's your problem. He's already bigger, stronger, faster, and quicker than Al Jefferson as an 18 year old. His worst case is bigger, stronger, faster Al Jefferson, most likely is Demarcus Cousins with a brain/less defensive rebounding, and best case is Moses Malone (but better at playmaking/post moves and worse on the defensive boards).

All of these negatives people have about Jahlil were said in spades about Marc Gasol but he lost weight and started to play great positional defense once he was in the league and nothing is stopping Jahlil from losing 10 pounds and being taught defensive principals (because we all know Coach K doesn't teach them defense).

It's totally unreasonable to expect any player to follow a Marc Gasol trajectory, though. And I don't see Okafor showing signs of ever being the intelligent player Gasol is.

How about the fact that he can play great defense for the last 10 minutes of a game consistently? What about his super high offensive IQ?

Marc's trajectory wasn't crazy its just that his conditioning led him to not consistently play defense before he entered the league but he always knew how to play defense. If Jahlil is taught defense (again its been repeatedly shown that Coach K teaches his players how to mesh together offensively while mostly ignoring defense) and he loses a little weight so he can give more effort he will be good on that end. Plenty of guys his size have lost weight and become better defenders before so its not crazy to expect it just like its not crazy to expect KAT to add strength so he's not killed inside by NBA bigs.

I certainly don't see him being better than Al Jefferson defensively, his rim protection stats are some of the worst of college big men entering the NBA in the last 5 years and I believe he is in the bottom 3 alongside JJ Hickson and Vucevic (I read the article a few days ago and working off memory).

I don't know what numbers you're looking at because that's completely wrong. You're most likely referring to the DraftExpress article that has this exact sentence in it, "The numbers here suggest that Okafor hasn't been quite as ineffective as he appears to be on film at times." His overall numbers are actually very good mainly because when he tries he's pretty **** good at locking down the paint without hitting shots (one other thing mentioned in that article is his great ability to stay vertical and not foul while still altering shots). Not elite by any means but very good and definitely in the top 30th percentile for NCAA bigs.

That same article says this about his defense (note - its the same thing I've been saying about him all year even before the article was released because if you watch him this is really what you should see):

Watching the film, it's clear that when Okafor is operating at full intensity, he is able to make his presence felt with his strong frame, terrific length (wingspan measured between 7-5 and 7-6 in various settings) and solid anticipation skills. He's blocked 28 shots in 19 games so far this season, a decent mark, but his lapses in intensity, average awareness and fundamentals, and seeming unwillingness to be a consistent presence on a full-time basis have been quite glaring at times this year.

Just looking at his athletic profile (he's way taller than Al Jeff and in another class when it comes to his speed) he's clearly going to be better than Al defensively. Now he can be a very good defender if he gets with a coach willing to teach him the fundamentals and bench him for having major defensive lapses. He's only 18 while most all timer NBA centers don't enter the league until they're 20-21. The only ATG centers to hit the league at 19 are Moses Malone (ABA) and Dwight Howard. Dwight was an athletic freak and Moses was a terrible/bad defender until 77 when he was 21 (in 76 he was having his minutes cut because of his poor defense).

Fact is, it's very difficult to build around a C who doesn't protect the rim, and stats and the eye test show that it is very unlikely he will ever be even an average rim protector and I would never waste a number 1 pick (especially in a decent draft class) on a player that is difficult to build a team around.

It's easy to get excited about big men who can score in the post - but the primary role of a C is to protect that rim.

I get that you were going off numbers you thought you saw but the real numbers are optimistic and they show his defense is actually really good as lazy as he is. He also gets attacked at the rim a lot compared to other top centers (over 9.5 times a game now) thanks to Duke's non existent guard defense.

This is as advanced a post player as anyone has seen at 18 and he has serious size to even bully NBA centers (I've seen guys like Noah and Horford bullied by weaker guys than Jah).

Letting a legit 6-11, 275 lb, quick center go past is always a terrible idea. And it's not like we haven't seen him against NBA talent we have an its gone mostly like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IazdvaKG8PQ&t=5m10s[/youtube]

[Marcus]

If you think offensively and defensively he won't be way better than Al Jefferson that's your problem. He's already bigger, stronger, faster, and quicker than Al Jefferson as an 18 year old. His worst case is bigger, stronger, faster Al Jefferson, most likely is Demarcus Cousins with a brain/less defensive rebounding, and best case is Moses Malone (but better at playmaking/post moves and worse on the defensive boards).

All of these negatives people have about Jahlil were said in spades about Marc Gasol but he lost weight and started to play great positional defense once he was in the league and nothing is stopping Jahlil from losing 10 pounds and being taught defensive principals (because we all know Coach K doesn't teach them defense).

It's totally unreasonable to expect any player to follow a Marc Gasol trajectory, though. And I don't see Okafor showing signs of ever being the intelligent player Gasol is.

How about the fact that he can play great defense for the last 10 minutes of a game consistently? What about his super high offensive IQ?

Marc's trajectory wasn't crazy its just that his conditioning led him to not consistently play defense before he entered the league but he always knew how to play defense. If Jahlil is taught defense (again its been repeatedly shown that Coach K teaches his players how to mesh together offensively while mostly ignoring defense) and he loses a little weight so he can give more effort he will be good on that end. Plenty of guys his size have lost weight and become better defenders before so its not crazy to expect it just like its not crazy to expect KAT to add strength so he's not killed inside by NBA bigs.

I certainly don't see him being better than Al Jefferson defensively, his rim protection stats are some of the worst of college big men entering the NBA in the last 5 years and I believe he is in the bottom 3 alongside JJ Hickson and Vucevic (I read the article a few days ago and working off memory).

I don't know what numbers you're looking at because that's completely wrong. You're most likely referring to the DraftExpress article that has this exact sentence in it, "The numbers here suggest that Okafor hasn't been quite as ineffective as he appears to be on film at times." His overall numbers are actually very good mainly because when he tries he's pretty **** good at locking down the paint without hitting shots (one other thing mentioned in that article is his great ability to stay vertical and not foul while still altering shots). Not elite by any means but very good and definitely in the top 30th percentile for NCAA bigs.

That same article says this about his defense (note - its the same thing I've been saying about him all year even before the article was released because if you watch him this is really what you should see):

Watching the film, it's clear that when Okafor is operating at full intensity, he is able to make his presence felt with his strong frame, terrific length (wingspan measured between 7-5 and 7-6 in various settings) and solid anticipation skills. He's blocked 28 shots in 19 games so far this season, a decent mark, but his lapses in intensity, average awareness and fundamentals, and seeming unwillingness to be a consistent presence on a full-time basis have been quite glaring at times this year.

Just looking at his athletic profile (he's way taller than Al Jeff and in another class when it comes to his speed) he's clearly going to be better than Al defensively. Now he can be a very good defender if he gets with a coach willing to teach him the fundamentals and bench him for having major defensive lapses. He's only 18 while most all timer NBA centers don't enter the league until they're 20-21. The only ATG centers to hit the league at 19 are Moses Malone (ABA) and Dwight Howard. Dwight was an athletic freak and Moses was a terrible/bad defender until 77 when he was 21 (in 76 he was having his minutes cut because of his poor defense).

Fact is, it's very difficult to build around a C who doesn't protect the rim, and stats and the eye test show that it is very unlikely he will ever be even an average rim protector and I would never waste a number 1 pick (especially in a decent draft class) on a player that is difficult to build a team around.

It's easy to get excited about big men who can score in the post - but the primary role of a C is to protect that rim.

I get that you were going off numbers you thought you saw but the real numbers are optimistic and they show his defense is actually really good as lazy as he is. He also gets attacked at the rim a lot compared to other top centers (over 9.5 times a game now) thanks to Duke's non existent guard defense.

This is as advanced a post player as anyone has seen at 18 and he has serious size to even bully NBA centers (I've seen guys like Noah and Horford bullied by weaker guys than Jah).

Letting a legit 6-11, 275 lb, quick center go past is always a terrible idea. And it's not like we haven't seen him against NBA talent we have an its gone mostly like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IazdvaKG8PQ&t=5m10s[/youtube]

YERP!!!

been saying it all year. Its effort and energy with Jah on defense. Somebody coach him up and he'll be fine on that end.

[HeartBreakKid]

I've always said that Okafor looks like he'd be better than Al Jefferson. Okafor is quite explosive even if he is not a run and jump type of player. He is bigger, stronger and faster than Al Jefferson, so one would think he would be a better defender. With that being said, being a better defender than Al Jefferson is not saying much.

How good can Okafor be defensively? I really don't know at this point. I'm going to hunt down some of his games and keep a close eye, because now I'm starting to have doubts about me not having Okafor #1.

Scoring wise, I think there is no doubt that he will be a legit threat. He is very powerful, so I disagree with people who says that he cant play bully ball in the NBA (not that he would need too, as he has a ton of go to moves already at his young age).


I'm not sure about comparing him to Marc Gasol, they are different players and Marc Gasol is quite a bit bigger.

[Kinger95]

Anyone think that okafor might turn into a Greg Monroe type player rather than the 20-10 lock everyone says he is? I haven't watched him enough but is he can't miss like Anthony Davis or could he be a Cody Zeller?

[Marcus]

Anyone think that okafor might turn into a Greg Monroe type player rather than the 20-10 lock everyone says he is? I haven't watched him enough but is he can't miss like Anthony Davis or could he be a Cody Zeller?

he's can't miss for what he can do on the floor. His defense is suspect and needs to be coached up. Offensively he's a throwback back to the basket big with a wide array of moves and his IQ and understanding of his game gives him arguably the highest floor in the draft. Even if Jah NEVER improves defensively he'd still be somebody you could run your offense through in the league if you need buckets and were willing to protect/hide him defensively.

[djphan]

defense is something that is very hard to improve upon... esp for a center.... just because it's happened in some isolated instances does not mean you can assume it is just going to happen... blocking shots once you enter college is something that just does not improve signficantly for whatever reason... even the dumbest laziest centers find a way to block shots if they have that ability... yinka dare comes to mind...

not saying that he can't become a good player because he doesn't block shots like david robinson as a freshman.. but odds are against him improving signficantly...

offense on the other hand can improve... there are countless examples of players who turned themselves into pretty decent offensive players...

[Marcus]

Problem is folks seem to be under the opinion Jah is incapable of playing defense. He's lazy at it and can't quite read PnR just yet. That's a difference from being incapable.

[E-Balla]

Problem is folks seem to be under the opinion Jah is incapable of playing defense. He's lazy at it and can't quite read PnR just yet. That's a difference from being incapable.

Exactly. In the Notre Same (1st) and St. John's game he allowed 10 of 11 attempts at rim to go in in the first 30 minutes of both games combined. You say wow that's terrible but then you see he allowed them to shoot 1 of 8 in the last 10 minutes combined (with the one make being a great make by Jerian Grant) and he looks way better. If his defense in the last 10 minutes was like his defense in the first 30 minutes I wouldn't have raised him over Towns on my board and Russell would've eclipsed him.

defense is something that is very hard to improve upon... esp for a center.... just because it's happened in some isolated instances does not mean you can assume it is just going to happen... blocking shots once you enter college is something that just does not improve signficantly for whatever reason... even the dumbest laziest centers find a way to block shots if they have that ability... yinka dare comes to mind...

not saying that he can't become a good player because he doesn't block shots like david robinson as a freshman.. but odds are against him improving signficantly...

offense on the other hand can improve... there are countless examples of players who turned themselves into pretty decent offensive players...

Blocks aren't defense. There's plenty of guys that were bad defenders in college (and Jahlil isn't even that ignoring the pick and roll) who become great defenders in the league because they have all the physical tools. Don't act like a ton of guys haven't become good or passable defenders once already in the league (Lebron, Shaq, Marc, Moses, Bynum, etc.). Actually I can name way more great offensive rookies than great defensive rookies off the top of my head. Players come in raw on both ends.

[No-Man]

Okafor has ginormous size, and nimble feet, he just needs to learn, he has the tools to be a factor in the defensive end.

[ALL HAIL]

I'm older, but Okafor reminds me of Brad Daugherty--surprised I haven't seen that comparison yet.

[reignfire]

I prefer Towns. With Okafor, you will always need a Serge Ibaka type paired next to him to be effective.

With a guy like Towns, potentially, you are more flexible.

[Zeitgeister]

I prefer Towns. With Okafor, you will always need a Serge Ibaka type paired next to him to be effective.

With a guy like Towns, potentially, you are more flexible.

Okafor has very good defensive tools. He's a teenager, not many of those play good defense. He'll learn to be a good defender in time.