Ben Saraf

[arusinov]

Ben Saraf and Noa Essengue lead Ulm in sweep 3:0 over Alba Berlin in German BBL QF.

Through 3 games:

* Saraf averaged 15.0 pts on 52.3/ 50.0 / 94.7 split (71.7 ts%), 3.7 rbs, 5.0 ast (3.0 to), 1 stl. 0.7 blk.

* Essengue averaged 13.0 pts on 58.8 / 0 / 95.0 split (75.6% ts%), 5.7 rbs, 3.3 ast (1.0 to), 1.7 stl, 0.3 blk

Essengue led Ulm with 21 pts in 1st game, Saraf was the best player of Ulm in 2nd and 3rd.

Ben Saraf in 3rd game: 27 MIN, 20 PTS (4/5 FG 1/1 3PT, 11/12 FT), 7 AST (4 TO), 4 REB, 1 STL, 1 BLK , +/- +18 (Ulm won by 9 pts)

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overall in 50 games for Ulm per game:
23.5 min, 12.4 pts on 45.6 / 30.8 / 75.6 split (53.8 ts%), 2.6 rbs, 4.3 ast (2.7 to), 1.2 stl, 0.3 blk,
34W/ 16L

I think people wildly overreacted to his rather short (and expected because he played without much rest for two seasons) slump: all in all he's maybe the best overall player for average (50% wins) EuroCup team, and top German league team - it's something which almost never happens with teenage prospects in Europe (not counting Luka obviously).

[SNPA]

I’d take him over many guys mocked ahead of him. When a guy draws legit Manu comps, I’m in.

[King Ken]

Him and Noa Essengue are legit NBA players. I still don't have a comp in mind for Ben but Noa is like a differently skilled Ben Simmons. His floor is not anywhere as good as Ben but he could end up being better by the end of this 2nd contract. He's a 3 and Ben was a PG but there is just a lot there on tape to like. I think his upside is interesting.

[King Ken]

Ben high key plays like a European White Chocolate if you focus on Jason when playing ball for Memphis. I think i am going to ride with the White Chocolate comp. Jason is quicker whereas Ben is taller.

[bucknut]

plays like a mix of the spaniard rudy fernandenz and goran dragic based on euro tape - looked super enticing , ....fearless driver with flare, but also can control pace and mid range game with way he cocks the ball like goran looks promising

Then you turn the portland tape and you see soft as tissue paper - even his build looks different then euro tape - maybe being up close - looks like chet holmgren type of build - and he looked weak and soft in play like his body does too. He couldn't drive at all against portland - his explosion was gone. A general lack of dog from him in a game he should of been hyped for.

and his defense is an abomination. Couldn't be further away from dragic or ginobili in that regard. Went from probably lottery to a guy i would have a hard time touching.

how did Traore do when he went to portland for hoop summit ? perhaps one of the most impressive game films of any prospect in this class

[arusinov]

plays like a mix of the spaniard rudy fernandenz and goran dragic based on euro tape - looked super enticing , ....fearless driver with flare, but also can control pace and mid range game with way he cocks the ball like goran looks promising

Then you turn the portland tape and you see soft as tissue paper - even his build looks different then euro tape - maybe being up close - looks like chet holmgren type of build - and he looked weak and soft in play like his body does too. He couldn't drive at all against portland - his explosion was gone. A general lack of dog from him in a game he should of been hyped for.

and his defense is an abomination. Couldn't be further away from dragic or ginobili in that regard. Went from probably lottery to a guy i would have a hard time touching.

how did Traore do when he went to portland for hoop summit ? perhaps one of the most impressive game films of any prospect in this class

Yes. Let's judge player by 1 game where he was guarded by guys like 2nd NBA all-defense team Toumani Camara, Deni Avdija who is very good defender, and good wing defenders (even if bad scorers) Murrey and Rupert with 7'3" Clingan (who would lead NBA in blocks per 36 in his rookie season) waiting in paint. And in this "horrible" game Saraf would still score 16 pts on 6/14 FG.

And then let's add some irrelevant stuff about Traore and... hoop summit

Now speaking about Traore and horrors. In his first 3 games against Euroleague teams in French league his stats were 3 FG /32 FGA, 13 ast / 10 tov.
Traore by the way was also smothered by Saraf and Omer Mayer in Euro U18 QF where he scored just 12 pts, 9 ast but 8 tov with +/- of -12. Saraf which got in foul trouble still scored 23 with 5 ast / 0 tov and +/- of +16. Mayer which Traore guarded most of time... went for 33 pts

[FarBeyondDriven]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

[JMAC3]

Two things working against him, Ulm hasn't really had any success putting guys in the NBA thus far. Outside of Deni- who took awhile none of the Israeli draft prospects have really panned out much in the NBA.

ULM - Juan Nunez, Killan Hayes, Pacome Dadiet-- now Essengue and Saraf
Players born or played pro in Israel- Yam Mader, Deni, Gal Mekhi, Casspi, Dragan Bender

[pad300]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

[arusinov]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

Yes. It was weird take. Saraf plays against better competition than high-majors since he was 17, and better competition than mid-majors since he was 16

[FarBeyondDriven]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

[arusinov]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

[SeattleJazzFan]

anyone know when the international combine is so we can get measurements for many of these guys? He's a hard eval for me because whenever I watch highlights it looks like he's cooking Division 2 level talent.

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

but they literally aren't scrubs. even saying D1 would be harsh and wrong. these are former very good D1 players who are now in the prime of their careers with more experience than when they were excellent D1 players. if they are getting blown by, maybe it's because Saraf is just that good.

bottom line - it's not the NBA but it's a level above D1/power conference basketball.

[JMAC3]

Even if the argument is that these teams that Ulm plays is equivalent to the teams in the SEC then Essengue and Saraf averaging 12 ppg isn't all that impressive and I would probably say SEC had more talented rosters. The guys that have come from Ulm so far haven't necessary looked great in the NBA either so it is hard to say the competition level is going to transfer, the German league just doesn't tend to put guys in the NBA.

I would trust prospects from France first, ABA second and then Spanish league all before the German pro league.

[Chi town]

Even if the argument is that these teams that Ulm plays is equivalent to the teams in the SEC then Essengue and Saraf averaging 12 ppg isn't all that impressive and I would probably say SEC had more talented rosters. The guys that have come from Ulm so far haven't necessary looked great in the NBA either so it is hard to say the competition level is going to transfer, the German league just doesn't tend to put guys in the NBA.

I would trust prospects from France first, ABA second and then Spanish league all before the German pro league.

I’d agree with that.

What Noa and Ben have done against their peers at their age is legit though. Noa looked like he belonged against the Blazers too.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Ok, you're triggering a long-standing annoyance here. Americans underate foreign leagues by an enormous amount (or overate the NCAA).

Ulm just played a 3 game playoff series (3:0) against Alba Berlin. The top 3 players on Alba (by minutes played) are Justin Bean, Trevion Williams and Matt Thomas. All three played NCAA DI for 4 years (and earned some small awards). All three at least had a cup of coffee (nba summer league) in the NBA. They have also had at least a couple of years of experience in professional ball, beyond 4 years in the NCAA...

This is not Div 2 talent. This is better talent than he would be facing on a night to night basis in the NCAA D1!

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

[SeattleJazzFan]

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

huh? what makes you think they aren't good enough to play in the g league? also, some of them have been on NBA benches.

[arusinov]

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

huh? what makes you think they aren't good enough to play in the g league? also, some of them have been on NBA benches.

Yes... It's weird discussion. The opponent seemingly just doesn't want to listen.
Nate Hinton - that signed in the middle of season guy which played 13 min per game scoring 4.6 ppg which got cut to 11 min (3.0 ppg) in playoffs, was last year G-League All-Defensive Team selection.

[arusinov]

I don't know much about the league he plays in or how that compares to other leagues over there. Whether it's one of the weakest or supposedly toughest. Maybe saying D2 is harsh. I'll take that back. All I see while watching highlights are a bunch of absolute scrubs getting blown by and he's met with little resistance at the rim. It's like watching Dylan Harper vs Monmouth. None of this will translate to the NBA. At least getting combine numbers would help paint the picture better because just going by highlights he doesn't look like a potential NBA starter. I remember several years ago people were making similar claims about a guy that looks and plays like him, Yam Madar and he certainly didn't translate. It's a shame we couldn't see him play at the combine

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

Nate Hinton - that signed in the middle of season guy which played 13 min per game scoring 4.6 ppg, which got cut to 11 min (3.0 ppg) in playoffs, was last year G-League All-Defensive Team selection.

[FarBeyondDriven]

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

Nate Hinton - that signed in the middle of season guy which played 13 min per game scoring 4.6 ppg, which got cut to 11 min (3.0 ppg) in playoffs, was last year G-League All-Defensive Team selection.

I mean, at soon to be 26 y/o, he's almost assuredly out of the G-League for good since he's aged out of being an NBA prospect so like I said "aren't good enough for the G-League (currently) or on an NBA bench."