Luka Doncic

[Mickey8]

I am impressed by his playmaking abilities .

[reanimator]

Euroleague teams play games against NBA in pre season and they match up evenly more and more in the last few years. Actually I won't be lazy and I'll count the score since 2012. 17-6 for NBA


Can you imagine NCAA teams winning 6 of 23 games against NBA teams? I can bet my life on it that they would win like 1 game by accident.

Also love how you said: "The thing with the Euroleagues is that they're grown men so the strength/physicality is anything beyond the NCAA as well as the overall offensive skill level is another plane but thats it." so basically they are better defenders, better offensive players but NCAA teams are still better?

No not better defenders, less length, less athleticism, less speed.

And no, NBA and Euro teams aren't anywhere close to matching up evenly because of some half-assed preseason games.

I said that "more and more evenly" that percentage against Euroleague teams was like 90% before but can you imagine NCAA beating NBA team in half arsed game?

Can you imagine any team beating even Brooklyn?

no, because the physicality gap is too large

[Bob8]

The Fultz vs Doncic thing is just silly. Just stop. Fultz is a significantly better athlete who is way more creative as a ballhandler who has an elite pull-up game (Doncic has never shown one) and great body control/touch around the rim (Doncic is questionable here). Doncic is bigger, a more willing defender, flashes a post-up game and a better shooter from 3.

The best NCAA teams like UK and Duke have more length and athleticism than these Euro teams and play at a much greater speed. You can reference former NCAA stars and NBA guys in the Euroleagues but most of those guys were offensive guys who were defensive sieves at the end of rotations. The thing with the Euroleagues is that they're grown men so the strength/physicality is anything beyond the NCAA as well as the overall offensive skill level is another plane but thats it.

Its crazy how people really want to be dismissive of comparisons to guys like Batum, Hayward and Iguodala as if it were a diss and would rather toss out names like Lebron, Magic and Bird....a notion that would be absurd in just about any other prospects thread.

Euroleague teams play games against NBA in pre season and they match up evenly more and more in the last few years. Actually I won't be lazy and I'll count the score since 2012. 17-6 for NBA


Can you imagine NCAA teams winning 6 of 23 games against NBA teams? I can bet my life on it that they would win like 1 game by accident.

Also love how you said: "The thing with the Euroleagues is that they're grown men so the strength/physicality is anything beyond the NCAA as well as the overall offensive skill level is another plane but thats it." so basically they are better defenders, better offensive players but NCAA teams are still better?

No not better defenders, less length, less athleticism, less speed.

And no, NBA and Euro teams aren't anywhere close to matching up evenly because of some half-assed preseason games.

Please tell me what's wrong with that team? http://www.euroleague.net/competition/teams/showteam?clubcode=MAD&seasoncode=E2016

And you must not forget the biggest difference between NCAA and Euroleague, meaning Euroleague teams systems and organizations in offense and defense. You just can't go out there playing run&gun and hope you won't be destroyed, you will be, every time. This system and organization allow Euroleague teams to beat Nba teams sometimes. Only sometimes, because the gap is still too big.

And when I watch Fultz, great player, but the fact is he really plays in a very bad team, where he can do whatever he wants. Do you know where plays the best scorer in Euroleague? In Unics, one of the worst clubs in Euroleague. Langford looks great too, but would he look great in Real, Fener or Cska? No way and they don't want him there. So when you watch 17 years old Doncic, you have to have in mind, how big thing is only to be in that kind of club in Europe, how difficult is just to get minutes, because they have really deep roster and how incredible difficult is to be the best player of that club, what Doncic in last 2 months definitely is. And please don't forget he is 1 year younger than Fultz. Where did Fultz play last year? In school?;) Yes it's totally possible Fultz will have much better Nba career than Doncic. But that's we need to see. On the other hand what Luka is doing this year in Real Madrid is really incredible, no one has done it before at his age. I would appreciate at least if you give Doncic benefit of doubt.

[Sports Geek]

You are not only wrong about the NCAA vs NBA battle, you were wrong about this too... ------>

I'm just going to exit this thread lol.

Don't joke about that, I was hopeful that you were serious

[UcanUwill]

Euroleague teams nowadays plays above the rim more and more. Someone like Anthony Randolph supposed to be an amzing athlete at NBA level, and he is really good athlete in Euroleague, but I would't call him anything special. He is not better than guys like Hines, Hanga, Vesely or even Kurbanov or something like that.

Saying that top college teams has more length and plays faster is just silly. Euroleague players are better athletes nowadays, especially forwards, guards, got to admit, not so much still.

What even top college teams lack, is depth. It is very easy to determine how far behind these D1 teams still are. Just look at the best college teams from 5 years ago, and check where these players are nowadays, 2011 Kentucky Wildcats, great college team. 3 players actually made a very good career in the NBA, one, Darius Miller, actually made to Euroleague. Others tho, pretty bad. Marquis Teague, one of the key players of that Kentucky team, is now playing for Avtador in Russia. Doron Lamb and Kyle Wiltjer, are now in D league.

[reanimator]

American players opt for the D League to up tgeir chances of getting an NBA contract

I've already mentioned offensive structure, defensive structure is silly given the gimmick Ds the NCAA allows

Depth definitely is a factor but negligible when talking the blue bloods

Anthony Randolph types are a dime a dozen in the NBA meanwhile he sticks out in Europe

Age doesn't change any of the skill/physical advantages I listed Fultz having over Doncic

You can't post Euro rosters with the combination of athleticism,speed and length of Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, FSU, UNC and so on.

[UcanUwill]

I really like this discussion. Its very OT, so I hope we don't realy upsetting people with this non sense. I always like to learn something new about basketball. Can you link me or post the heights of these college player, so we could compare them?

Which Euroleague team is the most athletic anyway? Olympiacos used to be the most athletic for sure, but lost some of that athleticism in recent years. They still have great athletes like Printezis, Khem Birch, Patrick Young and Errick Green. Solid.

[XTraderXL]

American players opt for the D League to up tgeir chances of getting an NBA contract

I've already mentioned offensive structure, defensive structure is silly given the gimmick Ds the NCAA allows

Depth definitely is a factor but negligible when talking the blue bloods

Anthony Randolph types are a dime a dozen in the NBA meanwhile he sticks out in Europe

Age doesn't change any of the skill/physical advantages I listed Fultz having over Doncic

You can't post Euro rosters with the combination of athleticism,speed and length of Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, FSU, UNC and so on.

You obviously dont watch Real this year if you are saying Randolph sticks out. He has virtually the same stats now at 27 in his prime in Euroleague, as he had as a 21-22 year old in the NBA. i would argue he is a much better player now than he was back then. So how can he stick out in Europe averaging 20 min per game, 9.5p, 5.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists? He had the same playing time in Minny in 2010-2011 season and he scored 11.7p, had 5.2reb and 1.1ass. Are you saying he was sticking out in the NBA as well?

Most of us here watch NBA and Euroleague so we know what we are talking about. You watch maybe highlights of Euro basketball and then make conclusions which are completely off base. With every post you are loosing credibility and I can find a stronger counter argument for every single argument you are making regarding EL vs NCAA.

[reanimator]

American players opt for the D League to up tgeir chances of getting an NBA contract

I've already mentioned offensive structure, defensive structure is silly given the gimmick Ds the NCAA allows

Depth definitely is a factor but negligible when talking the blue bloods

Anthony Randolph types are a dime a dozen in the NBA meanwhile he sticks out in Europe

Age doesn't change any of the skill/physical advantages I listed Fultz having over Doncic

You can't post Euro rosters with the combination of athleticism,speed and length of Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, FSU, UNC and so on.

You obviously dont watch Real this year if you are saying Randolph sticks out. He has virtually the same stats now at 27 in his prime in Euroleague, as he had as a 21-22 year old in the NBA. i would argue he is a much better player now than he was back then. So how can he stick out in Europe averaging 20 min per game, 9.5p, 5.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists? He had the same playing time in Minny in 2010-2011 season and he scored 11.7p, had 5.2reb and 1.1ass. Are you saying he was sticking out in the NBA as well?

Most of us here watch NBA and Euroleague so we know what we are talking about. You watch maybe highlights of Euro basketball and then make conclusions which are completely off base. With every post you are loosing credibility and I can find a stronger counter argument for every single argument you are making regarding EL vs NCAA.

Someone brought up Randolph's athleticism. Why are you talking about production when we are discussing athleticism? At least address what is being discussed.

[reanimator]

I really like this discussion. Its very OT, so I hope we don't realy upsetting people with this non sense. I always like to learn something new about basketball. Can you link me or post the heights of these college player, so we could compare them?

Which Euroleague is the most athletic anyway? Olympiacos used to be the most athletic for sure, but lost some of that athleticism in recent years. They still have great athletes like Printezis, Khem Birch, Patrick Young and Errick Green. Solid.

Not just height but combination of speed, verticality and length

UK runs

Fox 6'4 PG w/ 6'7 span and elite end to end speed
Monk 6'3 guard with elite verticality and end to end speed
Diallo 6'5 guard with elite tier athleticism and a 6'11 span
Briscoe 6'3 220 lb PG w/ 6'9 span
Bam Adebayo strong, freak athlete w/ 7'2 span
Killers-jones explosive yet fluid 6'10 forward with 7'2 span
Gabriel 6'9 forward with 7'1 span
Humphrey is a 7 footer

Most of the Euros simply don't have the elite length or foot speed/quickness. Listing random American bust as examples of athletes in Europe when they are a minority just proves my point.

[UcanUwill]

I really like this discussion. Its very OT, so I hope we don't realy upsetting people with this non sense. I always like to learn something new about basketball. Can you link me or post the heights of these college player, so we could compare them?

Which Euroleague is the most athletic anyway? Olympiacos used to be the most athletic for sure, but lost some of that athleticism in recent years. They still have great athletes like Printezis, Khem Birch, Patrick Young and Errick Green. Solid.

Not just height but combination of speed, verticality and length

I don't know, I find that hard to believe, but maybe you are right. I would just want something concrete, but I know it is hard to prove something like that. EDIT, oh I see you posted it, ok, I will check it out.
I just think that if you put adequate Euroleague player and athlete like Nikita Kurbanov, I think he would dominate college. He is like bigger and stronger Anthony Bennett or Linas Kleiza.

Anyway, Guard positions are easily the least athletic ones in Europe basketball. And those are the ones that Doncic matches up most of the time. He doesn't get to guard very athletic and strong Euroleague forwards often.

[reanimator]

I really like this discussion. Its very OT, so I hope we don't realy upsetting people with this non sense. I always like to learn something new about basketball. Can you link me or post the heights of these college player, so we could compare them?

Which Euroleague is the most athletic anyway? Olympiacos used to be the most athletic for sure, but lost some of that athleticism in recent years. They still have great athletes like Printezis, Khem Birch, Patrick Young and Errick Green. Solid.

Not just height but combination of speed, verticality and length

I don't know, I find that hard to believe, but maybe you are right. I would just want something concrete, but I know it is hard to prove something like that. EDIT, oh I see you posted it, ok, I will check it out.
I just think that if you put adequate Euroleague player and athlete like Nikita Kurbanov, I think he would dominate college. He is like bigger and stronger Anthony Bennett or Linas Kleiza

Notice you mention size and strength which is my point. What Doncic is doing is great in the sense that he is playing against grown men and excelling in a structured offense against them but it'd be a lie to say he goes up against guys with the defensive tools many of the guys on blue blood college teams possess.

[UcanUwill]

Notice you mention size and strength which is my point. What Doncic is doing is great in the sense that he is playing against grown men and excelling in a structured offense against them but it'd be a lie to say he goes up against guys with the defensive tools many of the guys on blue blood college teams possess.

He doesn't get to guard them, but gets guarded by great athletes sometimes. Adam hanga guards him, Aaron Jackson guards him. Of course Luka also matches up against white stiffs like Leo Westermann or Kevin Pangos very often as well, but overall, I think you are underrating the competition and length he faces. It's not like every other college match up possesses freak athletes either.

That UK lineup might be very athletic, but their measurement and length aren't better that Euroleague ones.

Fenerbache for example :

PG Kostas Sloukas : 6'3 : unknown wingspan : 210 lbs
SG : Bogdan Bogdanovic : 6'6 : 6'11 wingspan :200 lbs
SF : Nikola Kalinic : 6'9 : unknown wingspan : 230 lbs
PF : Ekpe Udoh : 6'10 : 7'4 wingspan : 240 lbs
C : Jan Vesely : 6'11 : 6'11 wingspan : 240 lbs.

[Bob8]

Not just height but combination of speed, verticality and length

I don't know, I find that hard to believe, but maybe you are right. I would just want something concrete, but I know it is hard to prove something like that. EDIT, oh I see you posted it, ok, I will check it out.
I just think that if you put adequate Euroleague player and athlete like Nikita Kurbanov, I think he would dominate college. He is like bigger and stronger Anthony Bennett or Linas Kleiza

Notice you mention size and strength which is my point. What Doncic is doing is great in the sense that he is playing against grown men and excelling in a structured offense against them but it'd be a lie to say he goes up against guys with the defensive tools many of the guys on blue blood college teams possess.

I'm sure we will find out that NCAA is better than Euroleague and Fultz is defended by better players than Doncic in the end.

Let's watch this video, https://youtu.be/sCy75Mft8ns , to see who really are against Doncic in offense and defense.

[XTraderXL]

American players opt for the D League to up tgeir chances of getting an NBA contract

I've already mentioned offensive structure, defensive structure is silly given the gimmick Ds the NCAA allows

Depth definitely is a factor but negligible when talking the blue bloods

Anthony Randolph types are a dime a dozen in the NBA meanwhile he sticks out in Europe

Age doesn't change any of the skill/physical advantages I listed Fultz having over Doncic

You can't post Euro rosters with the combination of athleticism,speed and length of Kentucky, Arizona, Duke, FSU, UNC and so on.

You obviously dont watch Real this year if you are saying Randolph sticks out. He has virtually the same stats now at 27 in his prime in Euroleague, as he had as a 21-22 year old in the NBA. i would argue he is a much better player now than he was back then. So how can he stick out in Europe averaging 20 min per game, 9.5p, 5.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists? He had the same playing time in Minny in 2010-2011 season and he scored 11.7p, had 5.2reb and 1.1ass. Are you saying he was sticking out in the NBA as well?

Most of us here watch NBA and Euroleague so we know what we are talking about. You watch maybe highlights of Euro basketball and then make conclusions which are completely off base. With every post you are loosing credibility and I can find a stronger counter argument for every single argument you are making regarding EL vs NCAA.

Someone brought up Randolph's athleticism. Why are you talking about production when we are discussing athleticism? At least address what is being discussed.

The point is a player who is athletically better than average in the NBA is not any better as a player in Europe. He is probably the best athlete in Euroleague at his position but his productivity is exactly the same as in the NBA and he is in his prime now. He is a perfect example that what you are saying is just wrong. If I wouldnt know better I would think that the guy could not hold his own in the NBA and now in Europe he is the MVP when in fact he is exactly the same player he was in the NBA and not even one of the top players of Real.
Euroleague teams would destroy the top NCAA teams and it wouldnt be even close. They might get a win or two during the regular season but thats it. Maybe they would get a few more wins in the previous system with more bad teams but now they would have no chance, they would get assfu****))))

[Bob8]

I don't know, I find that hard to believe, but maybe you are right. I would just want something concrete, but I know it is hard to prove something like that. EDIT, oh I see you posted it, ok, I will check it out.
I just think that if you put adequate Euroleague player and athlete like Nikita Kurbanov, I think he would dominate college. He is like bigger and stronger Anthony Bennett or Linas Kleiza

Notice you mention size and strength which is my point. What Doncic is doing is great in the sense that he is playing against grown men and excelling in a structured offense against them but it'd be a lie to say he goes up against guys with the defensive tools many of the guys on blue blood college teams possess.

I'm sure we will find out that NCAA is better than Euroleague and Fultz is defended by better players than Doncic in the end.

Let's watch this video, https://youtu.be/sCy75Mft8ns , to see who really are against Doncic in offense and defense.

And let's compare this Euroleague video with high tempo play in NCAA and great defense against Fultz. https://youtu.be/aEFg-5BApQA

It's like watching slow motion.

[Sports Geek]

I really like this discussion. Its very OT, so I hope we don't realy upsetting people with this non sense.

Thanks for being always so polite. I think we are going too far and leaving Doncic aside, but still I think it is ok, no Real Madrid game today, so let's kill some time

Not just height but combination of speed, verticality and length

UK runs

Fox 6'4 PG w/ 6'7 span and elite end to end speed
Monk 6'3 guard with elite verticality and end to end speed
Diallo 6'5 guard with elite tier athleticism and a 6'11 span
Briscoe 6'3 220 lb PG w/ 6'9 span
Bam Adebayo strong, freak athlete w/ 7'2 span
Killers-jones explosive yet fluid 6'10 forward with 7'2 span
Gabriel 6'9 forward with 7'1 span
Humphrey is a 7 footer

So all those NCAA stars shrank (both body and arms) and got slower when they came to play to Europe? Because the Euroleague is full of ex-NCAA stars. I just think they look more average here because all players in Europe are pros. You got to be a pro because you have being elite for years. In the American case, you go from high school to university (if you are good enough). Then you have to be one of the best between all those kids that were good enough to go to university, to become a pro. That's what all Euroleague players are, pros. They are chosen between millions of players that dream about playing in the NBA and if not, they want to play in the Euroleague.

I think it is really easy to understand. This is like a jungle. Survival of the fittest. You are in the NCAA, you have to prove that you are good enough for the NBA. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for the Euroleague. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for a low budget team in one of the best national leagues. If you aren't, you have to try to play in Belgium, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Uruguay,... That's why there are Americans in all those leagues and second divisions. They were good enough for the NCAA, not for the Euroleague.

[SportsGuy8]

No not better defenders, less length, less athleticism, less speed.

Even if that was the case (it's actually not, since even the best NCAA teams usually only have a couple freakishly athletic players, same as European teams; but let's just say it's true, for argument's sake), SO WHAT? That doesn't make NCAA players better defenders.

Look at a guy like Amare Stoudemire. He was a complete athletic freak, but even in his prime, his defense was atrocious! His supreme athleticism didn't even help him when he was a mature player ... In a lot of ways, defense is about smarts, something those college kids clearly lack, it's something that quickly becomes evident when one watches NCAA games.

True defense is also a collective thing, just ask those 2002, 2004, 2006 Team USA teams from my argument that you happily IGNORED. Their supreme athleticism didn't really help those groups of NBA ALL-STARS in defense vs. their opponents. Why? Because they tried defending individually, using their LENGTH, ATHLETICISM AND SPEED, without any real collective defensive strategy.

You're making the same mistake they made. They thought their LENGTH, ATHLETICISM, SPEED is going to do the job ...

So all those NCAA stars shrank (both body and arms) and got slower when they came to play to Europe? Because the Euroleague is full of ex-NCAA stars. I just think they look more average here because all players in Europe are pros. You got to be a pro because you have being elite for years. In the American case, you go from high school to university (if you are good enough). Then you have to be one of the best between all those kids that were good enough to go to university, to become a pro. That's what all Euroleague players are. They are chosen between millions of players that dream about playing in the NBA and if not, they want to play in the Euroleague.

I think it is really easy to understand. This is like a jungle. Survival of the fittest. You are in the NCAA, you have to prove that you are good enough for the NBA. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for the Euroleague. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for a low budget team in one of the best national leagues. If you aren't, you have to try to play in Belgium, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Uruguay,... That's why there are Americans in all those leagues and second divisions. They were good enough for the NCAA, not for the Euroleague.

This is a very important point. The Americans that play in the Euroleague are basically the best of the rest. There are literally THOUSANDS of ex-NCAA players playing around the world, and only the best of those that don't play in the NBA are then selected by the Euroleague teams, in many cases they're even former NBA players.

Doncic mostly faces the same type of players he would face in the NCAA, only they're much older, more mature, smarter and stronger. And for every lesser (athletically) opponent he occasionally faces, he would also face a similar kind of opponent in the NCAA. There are lots and lots of NCAA teams, some here are acting like they're all stacked with athletic freaks. That's obviously not the case.

[Bob8]

No not better defenders, less length, less athleticism, less speed.

Even if that was the case (it's actually not, since even the best NCAA teams usually only have a couple freakishly athletic players, same as European teams; but let's just say it's true, for argument's sake), SO WHAT? That doesn't make NCAA players better defenders.

Look at a guy like Amare Stoudemire. He was a complete athletic freak, but even in his prime, his defense was atrocious! His supreme athleticism didn't even help him when he was a mature player ... In a lot of ways, defense is about smarts, something those college kids clearly lack, it's something that quickly becomes evident when one watches NCAA games.

True defense is also a collective thing, just ask those 2002, 2004, 2006 Team USA teams from my argument that you happily IGNORED. Their supreme athleticism didn't really help those groups of NBA ALL-STARS in defense vs. their opponents. Why? Because they tried defending individually, using their LENGTH, ATHLETICISM AND SPEED, without any real collective defensive strategy.

You're making the same mistake they made. They thought their LENGTH, ATHLETICISM, SPEED is going to do the job ...

So all those NCAA stars shrank (both body and arms) and got slower when they came to play to Europe? Because the Euroleague is full of ex-NCAA stars. I just think they look more average here because all players in Europe are pros. You got to be a pro because you have being elite for years. In the American case, you go from high school to university (if you are good enough). Then you have to be one of the best between all those kids that were good enough to go to university, to become a pro. That's what all Euroleague players are. They are chosen between millions of players that dream about playing in the NBA and if not, they want to play in the Euroleague.

I think it is really easy to understand. This is like a jungle. Survival of the fittest. You are in the NCAA, you have to prove that you are good enough for the NBA. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for the Euroleague. If you aren't, you have to prove that you are good enough for a low budget team in one of the best national leagues. If you aren't, you have to try to play in Belgium, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Uruguay,... That's why there are Americans in all those leagues and second divisions. They were good enough for the NCAA, not for the Euroleague.

This is a very important point. The Americans that play in the Euroleague are basically the best of the rest. There are literally THOUSANDS of ex-NCAA players playing around the world, and only the best of those that don't play in the NBA are then selected by the Euroleague teams, in many cases they're even former NBA players.

Doncic mostly faces the same type of players he would face in the NCAA, only they're much older, more mature, smarter and stronger. And for every lesser (athletically) opponent he occasionally faces, he would also face a similar kind of opponent in the NCAA. There are lots and lots of NCAA teams, some here are acting like they're all stacked with athletic freaks. That's obviously not the case.

I really don't understand why we're talking about that. Whoever watch Euroleague game and NCAA game should see the big difference if he's just a little bit objective. I have watched some NCAA games and I'm shocked on how low level are they mostly played. Draft picks based on this games are really a big lottery. No wonder that cases like Bennett happens.

[reanimator]

Notice I said the cream of the crop in the power 5, not the NCAA in general.

A Game of 2 of any of the bluebloods is going to tell me more than any euroleague game.

Bennett beasted in college because he was more physically mature which serves my point.

And I said euroleague would beat bluebloods because they are more physically mature and play with more structure but bluebloods definitely have more length, speed, verticality. Europeans don't usually have plus wingspans.

Point being, Doncic has never been guarded by a Dearon Fox type talent, had to guard a Josh Jackson, or finish over a Justin Patton.

I bought into the notion guys like Hezonja, Svi and Korkmaz were plus athletes from listening to European posters and watching film of them dominating their European peers athletically but I will adjust for perimeter players going forward starting with Doncic.