2021 NBA Draft

[MotownMadness]

Losing interest in Barnes and Jalen Johnson

[No-Man]

if you think Barnes is going to be able to run any point in the NBA I am not sure what are you watching

He can play point the same way Draymond Green can. Who plays next to a 5 for most of the game, and only slides over to defend Centers (while still handling the ball a lot) when the team goes small. So where's the big difference between them in this regard?

Again: what does ‘a 5 on offense’ exactly mean? Still haven't seen an answer to that very fundamental question.

Draymond sucks on offense when played next to a big Center unless he is playing with two of the 3 best shooters of all time (pick your combo of Steph-Klay-KD)

Trying to assume that vacuum situation gonna be there for Scottie is just silly

And Draymond could shoot it a bit in his prime, now he has lost it almost completely

a 5 on offense means that if you want to have a good enough of offense to compete he is gotta be your most limited scorer on the floor with you A lineup

[clyde21]

more elementary analysis, 4 doesn't shoot 3s = 4 must be a 5

I'm really wondering what ‘a 5 on offense’ really means. First of all, there are so many different ways Centers play in the NBA. Second of all, Barnes runs the point for Florida State quite a bit – not typically something associated with 5's but with Point Forwards.

if you think Barnes is going to be able to run any point in the NBA I am not sure what are you watching

He runs it for FSU cause they had to promise him that to committ and cause Hamilton for some reason never wants dynamic Guards

That team is built terribly

Barnes is a 5 on offense because that's the best way to extract offensive value for him in the league and has enoguh size and defensive ability to hang if he has to play Center por stretches

JJJ fouled a lot yes, he was also excellent on D, both can be true, the dude had a 14BLK%, 7.3DBPM, best DRtg in his team, while being 18 the whole year in the Big10, he also had insane flashes of versatility and recognition, probably the most intriguing defensive big prospect since AD came out back then (2018)

Evan's holding a better Drtg right now than JJJ, also much better block-to-foul rate than JJJ...you can't play defense if you can't stay on the court.

and I'm not even saying Evan's a better defender, but the idea that it's not even close (your usual garbage hyperbole) doesn't hold any water.

[clyde21]

if you think Barnes is going to be able to run any point in the NBA I am not sure what are you watching

He can play point the same way Draymond Green can. Who plays next to a 5 for most of the game, and only slides over to defend Centers (while still handling the ball a lot) when the team goes small. So where's the big difference between them in this regard?

Again: what does ‘a 5 on offense’ exactly mean? Still haven't seen an answer to that very fundamental question.

Draymond sucks on offense when played next to a big Center unless he is playing with two of the 3 best shooters of all time (pick your combo of Steph-Klay-KD)

lol? Dray's best years came with Bogut at the 5.

[The-Power]

Draymond sucks on offense when played next to a big Center unless he is playing with two of the 3 best shooters of all time (pick your combo of Steph-Klay-KD)

Ah, I assume you have checked the numbers on that (you do realize that Green has played plenty of minutes without two of the three guys on the court, right)? Or looked at, for instance, the Portland series without Curry? I guess not, you're just throwing statements out there with nothing but hyperbole (yet again).

Trying to assume that vacuum situation gonna be there for Scottie is just silly

To assume that a player that can pass, handle the ball and passes the athletic threshold can only be successful in only a single particular constellation is what's really silly here. As if a top 10 impact player and DPOY in his prime would all of a sudden suck at playing the position he always played just because you take one player away. That's so ridiculous, I shouldn't even respond to such insinuations.

And Draymond could shoot it a bit in his prime, now he has lost it almost completely

Nonsense. He could hit his 3's at a solid percentage in one (!) year and never shot well from the midrange. Every other year Barnes can easily match or surpass in the future. It seems like you have no idea about Draymond's career, frankly. Primes are longer than one year, you know.

a 5 on offense means that if you want to have a good enough of offense to compete he is gotta be your most limited scorer on the floor with you A lineup

So what you're really saying is that Barnes has to be the worst offensive player on your team to have a good offense. Well, that's an argument we can have (not that I agree with it) but that has nothing inherently to do with ‘being a 5’. You don't have to play Center if you're the worst offensive player on your team. There are plenty of 5's out there that are good offensively, and can score and/or shoot and allow you to have a limited scorer playing next to them.

Put Barnes next to an offensively capable Center and there's absolutely no reason he can't thrive. And if Green is any indication, that Center doesn't even need to be good on offense – just able to fill a role.

[Marcus]

Not sure how Barnes' value can even be debated. League wide from best to worst, teams can use a Scottie Barnes. Ball handling, passing, switchable defender, good size with a frame to add onto, smart, assertive, passionate, and plays hard. You'd never draft him to be a focal point or say go get me a bucket to. But if send him out there and just let him play you're going to get positives out of what he does give you on the floor. Position be damned.

[BostonCouchGM]

better touch? Jackson has absurd touch, def above Mobley's

Triple J hasn't been a stud in NBA there yet, but he was way better on D than Mobley has so far in college, he was really elite for age/experience

Also way younger than Evan re:his draft year, Mobley is going to be 20yo when he gets draft, Jaren was still 18

no he wasn't, JJJ couldn't even stay on the court because he had no idea how to play defense without fouling...and still an issue for him btw.

you literally don't know what you're talking about. JJJ was ELITE defensively and the reason he was so highly regarded. Yikes

[The-Power]

I'd like to read your thoughts of some players that, from my impression, aren't talked about that often – but I'd like to know how you view them as prospects (anything between non-prospect to lottery sleeper). You can also just pick one or two out of the following list if you have opinions on them but not others:

Jason Preston (Jr.), Ohio
Justin Powell (Fr.), Auburn
Cameron Thomas (Fr.), LSU
Ron Harper Jr. (Jr.), Rutgers
Javonte Perkins (Fr.), St. Louis
Justin Lewis (Fr.), Marquette
Kadary Richmond (Fr.), Syracuse
Alan Griffin (Jr.), Syracuse
Quincy Guerrier (So.), Syracuse
David Duke (Jr.), Providence

PS: Have I already mentioned how much fun it is to watch Jason Preston play basketball?

[nolang1]

more elementary analysis, 4 doesn't shoot 3s = 4 must be a 5

I'm really wondering what ‘a 5 on offense’ really means. First of all, there are so many different ways Centers play in the NBA. Second of all, Barnes runs the point for Florida State quite a bit – not typically something associated with 5's but with Point Forwards.

if you think Barnes is going to be able to run any point in the NBA I am not sure what are you watching

He runs it for FSU cause they had to promise him that to committ and cause Hamilton for some reason never wants dynamic Guards

That team is built terribly

Barnes is a 5 on offense because that's the best way to extract offensive value for him in the league and has enoguh size and defensive ability to hang if he has to play Center por stretches

JJJ fouled a lot yes, he was also excellent on D, both can be true, the dude had a 14BLK%, 7.3DBPM, best DRtg in his team, while being 18 the whole year in the Big10, he also had insane flashes of versatility and recognition, probably the most intriguing defensive big prospect since AD came out back then (2018)

All these numbers are box score derived, so you’re basically just triple counting that he had a high block rate, which as others mentioned was offset by all the fouls he picked up chasing blocks. His actual defensive rating wasn’t the best on the team and his defensive RAPM wasn’t phenomenal either.

However, JJJ and Mobley are at least similar in that they’re not that great of defensive rebounders, which is statistically the least sexy part of defense but definitely a component that can’t be lacking for any big that is supposed to have some future DPOY type of impact.

[clyde21]

better touch? Jackson has absurd touch, def above Mobley's

Triple J hasn't been a stud in NBA there yet, but he was way better on D than Mobley has so far in college, he was really elite for age/experience

Also way younger than Evan re:his draft year, Mobley is going to be 20yo when he gets draft, Jaren was still 18

no he wasn't, JJJ couldn't even stay on the court because he had no idea how to play defense without fouling...and still an issue for him btw.

you literally don't know what you're talking about. JJJ was ELITE defensively and the reason he was so highly regarded. Yikes

when did I say he wasn't elite defensively? I'm saying the gap that ya'll are pretending exists between them defensively doesn't exist, and there's a reason why JJJ barely played 20 mins a game, because he couldn't stay on the court.

[No-Man]

I'd like to read your thoughts of some players that, from my impression, aren't talked about that often – but I'd like to know how you view them as prospects (anything between non-prospect to lottery sleeper). You can also just pick one or two out of the following list if you have opinions on them but not others:

Jason Preston (Jr.), Ohio
Justin Powell (Fr.), Auburn
Cameron Thomas (Fr.), LSU
Ron Harper Jr. (Jr.), Rutgers
Javonte Perkins (Fr.), St. Louis
Justin Lewis (Fr.), Marquette
Kadary Richmond (Fr.), Syracuse
Alan Griffin (Jr.), Syracuse
Quincy Guerrier (So.), Syracuse
David Duke (Jr.), Providence

PS: Have I already mentioned how much fun it is to watch Jason Preston play basketball?

None of them will amount much and not many are gonna be in this draft

[ThunderBolt]

Vecenie said on his podcast the Zaire Williams had a bike wreck on Stanford’s campus and that’s the reason he’s a little banged up.

[clyde21]

TJD is picking up where he left off last year pretty much, disappointed a bit that he hasn't increased his range/offensive repertoire but the guy is still a beast, can really do anything he wants on the inside, is a hound on the boards and increased his FT% above 70% which is good news

if he can hit 18 footers with any level of consistency I think he's a lotto guy, we'll see.

[retrobro90]

Where do people stand on Moses Moody vs Josh Christopher? I went back and watched some Montverde games today and it really shed a new light on Moody's shooting for me given his what his role was on that stacked team vs what they're relying on him to do for Arkansas. Christopher has a really tight handle for his size though and I think he gets into his pull up a little quicker than Moody especially in the mid range. Could also put up a nice performance tonight against SDSU and send a message.

Stats for quick comparison

Moses Moody 6’6” (through 5 games)

16.2pts/5.4rbs/1.8ast/1.4stl/1.2tos on 47.1/40/86.2 splits

Josh Christopher 6’5” (through 4 games)

17.5pts/4.3rbs/0.8ast/0.5stls/1.5tos on 56.0/26.7/76.9 splits

[Marcus]

Where do people stand on Moses Moody vs Josh Christopher? I went back and watched some Montverde games today and it really shed a new light on Moody's shooting for me given his what his role was on that stacked team vs what they're relying on him to do for Arkansas. Christopher has a really tight handle for his size though and I think he gets into his pull up a little quicker than Moody especially in the mid range. Could also put up a nice performance tonight against SDSU and send a message.

Stats for quick comparison

Moses Moody 6’6” (through 5 games)

16.2pts/5.4rbs/1.8ast/1.4stl/1.2tos on 47.1/40/86.2 splits

Josh Christopher 6’5” (through 4 games)

17.5pts/4.3rbs/0.8ast/0.5stls/1.5tos on 56.0/26.7/76.9 splits

You came to the right place sir. Been putting some thought to this and it's something I want to monitor this season.

IMO Josh has the talent advantage but Moses is much easier to plug into a system. Both are studs defensively. Josh's physical strength gives him a bit more switchablity. I think Josh's success will rely heavily on who drafts him and for what purpose because as much as he's a walking bucket it's a very old school ISO era type of game where it might not lend to much winning or at least winning on a bigger stage with that as the main go to. He doesn't distribute well enough to be Harden level even though his arsenal is pretty stacked. I can see Josh coming out the gates similar to Tyreke Evans but eventually settling into a Lou Will type of role where he could be a starter in a pinch but likely better suited to just have as the focal point of your second unit and help close games for you.

With Moses you can drop him onto any team and give him his job and reap benefits from him. He won't win game for you but he'll be a key reason as to why you'll win games with him. He's an ideal role player with increased value in this era. Good height, long arms defends, ball doesn't stick with him, repositions well off ball, rebounds, wet jumper, makes smart passes, and seems to be exploring his pin down bag a bit with the one bounce pull up or pass at Arkansas. I think he's easier to plug into and know exactly what you have where J Chris might take some molding if you're more system based.

Ultimately it comes down to use and purpose depending on who's drafting but I think they're both lotto to mid first guys. Josh is talented enough to reach for if you plan on using him properly. he takes just as much pride in locking you up as he does in giving you buckets and if he can channel some playmaking, work within a system, and develop his off ball value he could creep away from the Lou Will range into more of the LaVine Beal spectrum.

[clyde21]

Moses I think right now is a better defender by a pretty good margin, more portable and plug-n-play, can move up a position where Christopher I don't think can, offensively lower usage but high impact

J Chris is a just a machine tho, not a lot of finesse to his game but love his aggro style, stupid good athlete, really, really strong if u look at J Chris lower body he's built like a truck, but still doesn't use it well defensively and offense he's more of a run and gun type right now than anything else

i like both, I think both are in my lotto right now, but Moses to me has a higher baseline and more versatility so I'd lean Moses at this point

[No-Man]

Where do people stand on Moses Moody vs Josh Christopher? I went back and watched some Montverde games today and it really shed a new light on Moody's shooting for me given his what his role was on that stacked team vs what they're relying on him to do for Arkansas. Christopher has a really tight handle for his size though and I think he gets into his pull up a little quicker than Moody especially in the mid range. Could also put up a nice performance tonight against SDSU and send a message.

Stats for quick comparison

Moses Moody 6’6” (through 5 games)

16.2pts/5.4rbs/1.8ast/1.4stl/1.2tos on 47.1/40/86.2 splits

Josh Christopher 6’5” (through 4 games)

17.5pts/4.3rbs/0.8ast/0.5stls/1.5tos on 56.0/26.7/76.9 splits

Easily Moody, like a tier above at least

[MotownMadness]

Verge for Arizona ST was getting hot from 3

[MemphisX]

Re: Christopher vs Moody

I think a lot of people will get caught up in the potential upside of Josh as a secondary creator. However, I am not sure he has the upside as a passer to be on the ball like that in the NBA. His best role is likely the role that Moody is excelling at as an off the ball.

I think Moody has that Middleton type of upside. A guy that keeps adding tools into his tool box every offseason and you look up and he is giving you about 20ppg on good %s without needing to dominate the ball while adding good defense and very few mistakes.

Saying all that, I like Moody a bit more as far as team building.

[retrobro90]

Re: Christopher vs Moody

I think a lot of people will get caught up in the potential upside of Josh as a secondary creator. However, I am not sure he has the upside as a passer to be on the ball like that in the NBA. His best role is likely the role that Moody is excelling at as an off the ball.

I think Moody has that Middleton type of upside. A guy that keeps adding tools into his tool box every offseason and you look up and he is giving you about 20ppg on good %s without needing to dominate the ball while adding good defense and very few mistakes.

Saying all that, I like Moody a bit more as far as team building.

Think every reply made good points but this is probably closest to where I am having watched both of them play today. Christopher has the edge in terms of his takeover ability but ultimately I don't know if he has the dynamism to play that type of high usage role. I also didn't see it from him defensively tonight though I've seen him be better in the past.

Moody seems like a more natural fit and I don't think just because he has value as a plug n play guy that he should ONLY be an off ball role player. He might only ever be that but high level shooters are just about the most expensive role player teams can buy.