2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects

[NO-KG-AI]

Duncan is a substantially underrated athlete from a length/strength and fluidity standpoint. Honestly, he's pretty much elite in every facet outside of full court speed and leaping. He's so strong on the block, and his lateral quickness and fluidity used to be sooo good.

[hello_melo]

Length (Duncan's defining physical attribute, probably a 9' 6" standing reach)...check.

Leonard has the length

Athleticism (edge goes to Leonard)...check.p

You don't want me to use the word insane? Anybody who thinks Leonard is more athletic than freaking Tim Duncan is nuttier than a craphouse rat.

Big Strong Body (a must for a back to the basket game)...Leonard still needs to fill his monster frame...in a few years check.

He doesn't have a big strong body right now - this is compounded by his timid nature in the paint.

Superb passing ability for a big...check.

Pau Gasol is a "superb" passer. Leonard is light years from being a superb passer. Needs to work on his decision making before he even sniffs "superb".

Great touch around the basket...check.

"great" is much too strong a term. It is a strength, it is far from "great". Even when he regularly outsizes his defender by 4-5 inches.

Good midrange game and ability to hit freethrows...check (edge goes to Leonard).

You think Leonard has a better midrange game than Tim Duncan? Would you mind repeating that for the board?

Basketball iq...check.
Outstanding footwork...Leonard has flashed enough for me to say that he has the dexterity to get this with time....check.

BBIQ and footwork are a work in progress. Improved, yes. Outstanding? Not by a longshot.

Soft hands...check.

He does have soft hands.

Now, if you want to debate me on the fact that I think Leonard will be a top 5 pick and can become one of the premier centers in the NBA 4 years down the road (a Pau Gasol type player), then by all means I'm willing to listen (although probably better to do this in the Meyers Leonard thread)...and please try to avoid words like 'insane', especially when you don't understand how 'a top pick can only get 6 rebounds in one game'.

You are correct. I don't understand how Leonard can go such long stretches as a complete non-factor, which has happened on numerous occasions this year. Somehow he's more athletic and has a better midrange game than one of the top 5 big men to ever play the game, yet his team is mediocre at best and he's working on another 3 pt, 2 reb half against a team with absolutely zero size. But thank god he's more athletic than Duncan, Duncan would probably be scoreless!

But thanks for coming on here and proving my point about how INSANE the Meyers Leonard hype is getting...

[Ruzious]

Duncan is a substantially underrated athlete from a length/strength and fluidity standpoint. Honestly, he's pretty much elite in every facet outside of full court speed and leaping. He's so strong on the block, and his lateral quickness and fluidity used to be sooo good.

Yeah, it became popular to say that Duncan wasn't very athletic, but he really always was. His body control was just amazing for a guy his size and strength - and that's part of athleticism.

[Rockmaninoff]

My question with Leonard, is why he was so statistically awful as a freshman?

[peachbucket]

Length (Duncan's defining physical attribute, probably a 9' 6" standing reach)...check.

Leonard has the length

Athleticism (edge goes to Leonard)...check.p

You don't want me to use the word insane? Anybody who thinks Leonard is more athletic than freaking Tim Duncan is nuttier than a craphouse rat.

Big Strong Body (a must for a back to the basket game)...Leonard still needs to fill his monster frame...in a few years check.

He doesn't have a big strong body right now - this is compounded by his timid nature in the paint.

Superb passing ability for a big...check.

Pau Gasol is a "superb" passer. Leonard is light years from being a superb passer. Needs to work on his decision making before he even sniffs "superb".

Great touch around the basket...check.

"great" is much too strong a term. It is a strength, it is far from "great". Even when he regularly outsizes his defender by 4-5 inches.

Good midrange game and ability to hit freethrows...check (edge goes to Leonard).

You think Leonard has a better midrange game than Tim Duncan? Would you mind repeating that for the board?

Basketball iq...check.
Outstanding footwork...Leonard has flashed enough for me to say that he has the dexterity to get this with time....check.

BBIQ and footwork are a work in progress. Improved, yes. Outstanding? Not by a longshot.

Soft hands...check.

He does have soft hands.

Now, if you want to debate me on the fact that I think Leonard will be a top 5 pick and can become one of the premier centers in the NBA 4 years down the road (a Pau Gasol type player), then by all means I'm willing to listen (although probably better to do this in the Meyers Leonard thread)...and please try to avoid words like 'insane', especially when you don't understand how 'a top pick can only get 6 rebounds in one game'.

You are correct. I don't understand how Leonard can go such long stretches as a complete non-factor, which has happened on numerous occasions this year. Somehow he's more athletic and has a better midrange game than one of the top 5 big men to ever play the game, yet his team is mediocre at best and he's working on another 3 pt, 2 reb half against a team with absolutely zero size. But thank god he's more athletic than Duncan, Duncan would probably be scoreless!

But thanks for coming on here and proving my point about how INSANE the Meyers Leonard hype is getting...

Wow! Where to begin? There is obviously a comprehension problem here and I just dont have the time or desire to define basic words for you let alone explain concepts...my suggestion is to go pick up a Webster's at your local bookstore...end of conversation.

[hello_melo]

The concepts don't need explaining. You think Meyers Leonard has a legitimate chance to morph from a reasonably effective Big Ten Sophomore into a perennial NBA all-star that evokes comparisons to Tim Duncan.

Sure, its possible. But anything is possible.

What you are proposing isn't even remotely reasonable. Meyers Leonard will continue to improve - if he improves more than most over the next 5 years, he can be a starting C at the NBA level. 15/9 in his prime type of guy. That isn't unreasonable to project at all, though it might be optimistic.

To bring Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol into the conversation implies improvements that 99% of prospects simply don't make if they are already Sophs in college. He's not Duncan, he's not comparable to Duncan, he's not even comparable to Gasol.

Doesn't mean he isn't worthy of a lottery pick at some point, doesn't mean he won't be a very effective NBA player. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't stack up as a future all-star right now.

Try to realize that every time Harrison Barnes misses a shot half a dozen idiots start posting about how he's a bust. If Anthony Davis farts in pregame introductions we get a grassroots movement to banish him back to 2013. This is the microscope that a Top 5 pick is viewed under, so Leonard can either start producing at a higher level or the hype isn't going to last.

[peachbucket]

Athleticism (edge goes to Leonard)...check.p

You don't want me to use the word insane? Anybody who thinks Leonard is more athletic than freaking Tim Duncan is nuttier than a craphouse rat..

Really? This is a play from Leonards senior year in high school when he was 6'11", the same exact height as Tim Duncan...and in case your not sure, the rim is 10 ft high just like in college or the NBA. Please note snapshot at end of video with Leonards head 3 inches below the rim....and no that's not a special effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo13IM2DzMQ

Now please go out and find one video of Duncan with his head anywhere near rim level...feel free to stop after a few hours...you won't find one because Duncan could never jump that high.

[hello_melo]

Well, if you want to get legalistic it could be argued Usain Bolt is more athletic than Tim Duncan too.

Want to tell me what that has to do with basketball?

[ManualRam]

The concepts don't need explaining. You think Meyers Leonard has a legitimate chance to morph from a reasonably effective Big Ten Sophomore into a perennial NBA all-star that evokes comparisons to Tim Duncan.

Sure, its possible. But anything is possible.

What you are proposing isn't even remotely reasonable. Meyers Leonard will continue to improve - if he improves more than most over the next 5 years, he can be a starting C at the NBA level. 15/9 in his prime type of guy. That isn't unreasonable to project at all, though it might be optimistic.

To bring Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol into the conversation implies improvements that 99% of prospects simply don't make if they are already Sophs in college. He's not Duncan, he's not comparable to Duncan, he's not even comparable to Gasol.

Doesn't mean he isn't worthy of a lottery pick at some point, doesn't mean he won't be a very effective NBA player. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't stack up as a future all-star right now.

Try to realize that every time Harrison Barnes misses a shot half a dozen idiots start posting about how he's a bust. If Anthony Davis farts in pregame introductions we get a grassroots movement to banish him back to 2013. This is the microscope that a Top 5 pick is viewed under, so Leonard can either start producing at a higher level or the hype isn't going to last.

you just dont get it do you? i dont know about anyone else, but for me i already explained why i think he reminds me of gasol. again, im not saying he's gonna turn out to be gasol. im saying at this age, he has the bare bone skill set of a young gasol. most 7 footers his age dont flash the skills that he has. most 7 footers his age dont know how to read doubles and make the correct pass. most young 7 footers dont have counter moves, let alone a single advanced post move outside of the standard back down baby hook. what he's shown that he can do is NOT common for a young center.

he has a budding skillset, knowledge of the game, rapid improvement skill-wise and physically from one yr to the next (he obviously has the work ethic to improve and the ability to incorporate learned skill) to go along with his physical attributes (runs the floor extremely well, is very springy, has a big frame to fill out, long arms, is proportioned and coordinated for a center.)

you combine all that, and you have a very intriguing prospect.

[peachbucket]

Well, if you want to get legalistic it could be argued Usain Bolt is more athletic than Tim Duncan too.

Want to tell me what that has to do with basketball?

Now arguing that Usain Bolt is more athletic than Duncan is INSANE...Bolt is infinitely more athletic than Tim Duncan.

What does athleticism have to do with basketball?....that one will take a while. Why don't we start with something simpler like defining the word athleticism and build from there.

[hello_melo]

Let's forget for a moment that you have yet to produce anything that would indicate a college age Duncan could or couldn't accomplish any feat of athleticism, let alone something comparable to Leonard.

The fact that you bring it up in a basketball-related discussion indicates you believe that Meyers Leonard is not only more athletic than Duncan but that he is able to apply said athleticism advantage on the basketball court. If you wanted to talk about Leonard vs Duncan in the high jump, go find a high jump message board to post on. You can speculate to your heart's content. When it comes to basketball-related athleticism, it isn't close and it is extremely unlikely to ever be close.

[peachbucket]

Let's forget for a moment that you have yet to produce anything that would indicate a college age Duncan could or couldn't accomplish any feat of athleticism, let alone something comparable to Leonard.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize this is was my responsibility. Maybe since your the one disagreeing with me so strongly you should produce an example of Duncan's superior athleticism.

The fact that you bring it up in a basketball-related discussion indicates you believe that Meyers Leonard is not only more athletic than Duncan but that he is able to apply said athleticism advantage on the basketball court.

No, it does not indicate that. If I understand what your trying to say, which I think I do, then I thought I clearly explained the difference between the two. Being athletic and being able to apply that athleticsm to its full potential on the basketball court are two different things.

If you wanted to talk about Leonard vs Duncan in the high jump, go find a high jump message board to post on. You can speculate to your heart's content. When it comes to basketball-related athleticism, it isn't close and it is extremely unlikely to ever be close.

I was actually under the impression that jumping was a fairly large component of basketball releated athleticism. However, maybe I stand corrected...what is your definition of basketball related athleticsm?

[hello_melo]

And I have no idea why, in a debate about good a basketball player is or can become, you would try to differentiate between athleticism and applying that athleticism. It never should have been brought up in the first place if it has no application on the court.

If you want to be a lawyer about it, you can argue that James White is more athletic than Dwayne Wade. You mention it in a comparison of player attributes and you get laughed back to whatever hole you crawled out of. James White can dunk from the FT line, but when it comes to basketball, DWade is far and away the superior athlete and everybody knows it.

Now if you want to talk about James White being a better high jumper than Wade, have at it. Just don't expect many responses on a basketball message board.

So if you think Leonard is more athletic than Tim Duncan, he should be able to outjump Tim Duncan for a rebound, beat him down the court, or beat Duncan to a loose ball.

And its well beyond obvious that he couldn't even compete at those things, and that its extremely unlikely he will ever reach the level of a Duncan or even Gasol. Guys like Duncan and Gasol play the game at a different speed. That is related to numerous things, but one of the most crucial is athleticism.

You talk like it is a given that Leonard's frame will fill out - do you think he will retain his explosiveness when this happens?

[peachbucket]

And I have no idea why, in a debate about good a basketball player is or can become, you would try to differentiate between athleticism and applying that athleticism. It never should have been brought up in the first place if it has no application on the court

That's really interesting....I wonder why then NBA teams waste all that time and money every year going to combines and measuring prospects vertical leaps and sprint/shuttle times. I'm not really the one differentiating, i just said 'athleticism'. Your the one that came up with the concept of 'applied athleticism', whatever that means? Also, did you just really say that a players athleticism shouldn't be brought up when discussing or comparing draft prospects on an NBA draft board???

If you want to be a lawyer about it, you can argue that James White is more athletic than Dwayne Wade. You mention it in a comparison of player attributes and you get laughed back to whatever hole you crawled out of. James White can dunk from the FT line, but when it comes to basketball, DWade is far and away the superior athlete and everybody knows it.

Now if you want to talk about James White being a better high jumper than Wade, have at it. Just don't expect many responses on a basketball message board.

Again, I'm now convinced you don't know what athletic means in a basketball context...and that's whats really funny. I don't know why you are bringing up Bolt and James White. I posted on this board to discuss Loenard, who is a 2012 NBA PF/C Prospect, your the one calling peoples opinions on players athleticism 'INSANE' without knowing the meaning of the word. Let me help you a bit with an easy one...Who was more athletic, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan? And at the risk of assuming you got that answer correct, what is it that you are referring to when you say Michael Jordan is more athletic than Bird?

So if you think Leonard is more athletic than Tim Duncan, he should be able to outjump Tim Duncan for a rebound, beat him down the court, or beat Duncan to a loose ball.

And its well beyond obvious that he couldn't even compete at those things, and that its extremely unlikely he will ever reach the level of a Duncan or even Gasol. Guys like Duncan and Gasol play the game at a different speed. That is related to numerous things, but one of the most crucial is athleticism.

Well, it may be obvious to you, but not everyone is as perceptive...that's not a reason to call someone crazy just like someone not knowing what athleticism is and posting in an NBA draft forum isn't reason for me to call them stupid.

You talk like it is a given that Leonard's frame will fill out - do you think he will retain his explosiveness when this happens?

Um, why wouldn't he fill out with weight training. Does he have some genetic pre-disposition that I'm not aware of? Did Dwight Howard maintain his?

[hello_melo]

And I have no idea why, in a debate about good a basketball player is or can become, you would try to differentiate between athleticism and applying that athleticism. It never should have been brought up in the first place if it has no application on the court

That's really interesting....I wonder why then NBA teams waste all that time and money every year going to combines and measuring prospects vertical leaps and sprint/shuttle times. I'm not really the one differentiating, i just said 'athleticism'. Your the one that came up with the concept of 'applied athleticism', whatever that means? Also, did you just really say that a players athleticism shouldn't be brought up when discussing or comparing draft prospects on an NBA draft board???

I most certainly did not say athleticism shouldn't be brought up. Avoid the issue and play dumb if you want, I guess.

Anyways, you kind of prove my point when you bring up the NBA's "athletic" testing. Note how they call it "athletic" testing, not "leaping ability" testing. And the best performers in the testing are almost never the best basketball athletes. Ever heard of JR Bremer?

If you want to be a lawyer about it, you can argue that James White is more athletic than Dwayne Wade. You mention it in a comparison of player attributes and you get laughed back to whatever hole you crawled out of. James White can dunk from the FT line, but when it comes to basketball, DWade is far and away the superior athlete and everybody knows it.

Now if you want to talk about James White being a better high jumper than Wade, have at it. Just don't expect many responses on a basketball message board.

Again, I'm now convinced you don't know what athletic means in a basketball context...and that's whats really funny. I don't know why you are bringing up Bolt and James White. I posted on this board to discuss Loenard, who is a 2012 NBA PF/C Prospect, your the one calling peoples opinions on players athleticism 'INSANE' without knowing the meaning of the word. Let me help you a bit with an easy one...Who was more athletic, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan? And at the risk of assuming you got that answer correct, what is it that you are referring to when you say Michael Jordan is more athletic than Bird?

You know exactly why I brought it up. And Michael Jordan isn't more athletic than Larry Bird because he can jump higher than Larry Bird. He's more athletic because he can get past his man off the dribble, and because he can use his leaping ability at the rim. Plenty of folks capable of jumping just as high as MJ, James White being one of them. Almost none more athletic.

So if you think Leonard is more athletic than Tim Duncan, he should be able to outjump Tim Duncan for a rebound, beat him down the court, or beat Duncan to a loose ball.

And its well beyond obvious that he couldn't even compete at those things, and that its extremely unlikely he will ever reach the level of a Duncan or even Gasol. Guys like Duncan and Gasol play the game at a different speed. That is related to numerous things, but one of the most crucial is athleticism.

Well, it may be obvious to you, but not everyone is as perceptive...that's not a reason to call someone crazy just like someone not knowing what athleticism is and posting in an NBA draft forum isn't reason for me to call them stupid.

Don't say ridiculous things and I won't call you ridiculous. Stick to Meyers Leonard being a decent prospect, heck even claim he's got top 5 pick potential. I might mildly disagree, but probably not even enough to post a response. Start seriously claiming he's more athletic and better in the midrange than Tim Duncan, and there's nothing I can say that would be too insulting.

You talk like it is a given that Leonard's frame will fill out - do you think he will retain his explosiveness when this happens?

Um, why wouldn't he fill out with weight training. Does he have some genetic pre-disposition that I'm not aware of? Did Dwight Howard maintain his?[/quote]

[23-7]

I like Arnett Moultrie as a sleeper. What are everyone's thought?

[TomJoad]

I liken Meyers Leonard to a rich man's Chris Mihm coming out of Texas. Way more athletic.

[Dr Positivity]

You talk like it is a given that Leonard's frame will fill out - do you think he will retain his explosiveness when this happens?

Yes, and there's a difference between "filling out" and becoming Tim Duncan in strength. The biggest difference of course is in the lower body. Leonard might get stronger but I see no sign he can't get anywhere near Duncan's base... virtually nobody can

Not to mention that aside from the question of whether he'd still be quick after getting so much bigger, would he keep his midrange game or would his shot go the way of Bogut and Howard's after their physical transformation, not to mention the guy's ability with his back to the basket just isn't close right now. Duncan is one of the best of all time in the post, Leonard would be starting brutally late to be a primary back to the basket guy and jump from that to Duncan. Same deal with the Valanciunas = Pau? comparisons thrown around last year. Val is going to go from a guy who can't use his back at all against defenders because of his current weight, to blowing up to Bogut size physically and then becoming as skilled and confident as Pau at posting and creating space and finishing? Not likely

Just thought of a comparisons I kind of like for Leonard if he's very good offensively in the NBA: What about Lamarcus Aldridge? Good athlete, legit 7 foot, skill game, may suffer from softness early in his career

[peachbucket]

Yes, and there's a difference between "filling out" and becoming Tim Duncan in strength. The biggest difference of course is in the lower body. Leonard might get stronger but I see no sign he can't get anywhere near Duncan's base... virtually nobody can

Not to mention that aside from the question of whether he'd still be quick after getting so much bigger, would he keep his midrange game or would his shot go the way of Bogut and Howard's after their physical transformation, not to mention the guy's ability with his back to the basket just isn't close right now. Duncan is one of the best of all time in the post, Leonard would be starting brutally late to be a primary back to the basket guy and jump from that to Duncan. Same deal with the Valanciunas = Pau? comparisons thrown around last year. Val is going to go from a guy who can't use his back at all against defenders because of his current weight, to blowing up to Bogut size physically and then becoming as skilled and confident as Pau at posting and creating space and finishing? Not likely

Just thought of a comparisons I kind of like for Leonard if he's very good offensively in the NBA: What about Lamarcus Aldridge? Good athlete, legit 7 foot, skill game, may suffer from softness early in his career

Completely agree Mufasa. Duncan had tremendous lower body strength and was an immovable object in the blocks. Leonard is starting very late, no question...but something tells me that he is the classic 'late bloomer'. He picked up an inch in height from last year and may still be growing. That gives me reason to believe he may be able to add a considerable amount of strength going forward...although that wasn't really the case with Tyson Chandler who was still growing when drafted. In any case, I just see all the raw ingredients of a dominant player when I watch Meyers on the court...it just seems like he needs seasoning to put it all together. LMA is a really a good comp...and even their sophmore numbers are similar. However, LMA is 6'"11 and 240lbs right now...Leonard is already 7'"1 and 245...I would imagine by his 3rd year in the NBA Leonard will be around 265 and will be making his living primarily in the deep post as opposed to Aldridge who is more of a face up power forward.

[hello_melo]

The guy more athletic and with better midrange game than Tim duncan working on another 6 point, 3 board whopper...against Nebraska.

I'm thinking Joseph Bertrand is just as good an NBA prospect as Leonard.