Okafor or Towns? Which center is the better pick?

djphan · Post #81 » by **djphan** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:28 am

blocks aren't everything but if you're center is not a good shotblocker... people attack the paint at will on you in the pros... to a certain extent it's already happening at the college level which is the alarming part...

he's young so it's not hopeless... and he does block shots and he contests sometimes... just not consistently and he doesn't affect too many shots... but defense is the sort of thing that young elite center prospects are supposed to be good at... if he was a little quicker and he could play pf it'd be less concerning because there have been many power forwards with mediocre block rates that excelled in the pros... barkley, malone, griffin to name a few...

either way... his defense is something to worry about and you cannot assume that he could just be coached up... more than likely this is who he is on defense...

Zeitgeister · Post #82 » by **Zeitgeister** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:45 am

You are seriously overvaluing blocks. They are a small part of a player's defensive value, and anyway that doesn't matter no one is suggesting that his defense is good right now. He has good defensive tools, that much is true. I can assume he can be coached up, because he has the tools. A lot of young players take awhile to start playing defense, even the ones that come in with a defensive reputation. It will come down to how much effort he's willing to put in at the pro level.

djphan · Post #83 » by **djphan** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:00 am

they are a small part of a player's value but they are a pretty large part of a center's value... there is no other position on the court who is supposed to affect as many shots given that they are so close to the paint and that is one of the reasons why teams value centers so highly...

if you don't understand this part then.. yes you are going to overrate a guy like okafor and fall in love with someone like vucevic...

Post #84 » by **Marcus** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:29 am

It's as simple as effort and coaching which can clearly be seen when watching okafor. If you're seeking numerical value then look elsewhere. He'll be a position defender with modest block numbers. Some quality defensive centers in the league that don't block a ton of shots.

Zeitgeister · Post #85 » by **Zeitgeister** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:15 am

djphan wrote:they are a small part of a player's value but they are a pretty large part of a center's value... there is no other position on the court who is supposed to affect as many shots given that they are so close to the paint and that is one of the reasons why teams value centers so highly...

if you don't understand this part then.. yes you are going to overrate a guy like okafor and fall in love with someone like vucevic...

So which is it, you don't think Okafor can improve on his knowledge and effort level on defense or you don't think he has the physical tools to be a good defender?

If you don't think he can improve his knowledge and effort level, why?

djphan · Post #86 » by **djphan** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:21 am

i can probably name one... nene.. and he's just a good post defender which is not what we're talking about... i actually don't even know which players you are referring to... and if you means cousins which everyone seems to point to... i would hardly call him a good defender...

but like i said.. it's not impossible for him to be a good defender... it's just not likely... esp if you look at players who fit his kind of profile... you can say gasol, cousins and whoever turned into great defenders but there are also tons of others who never did for whatever reason...

if you don't factor that in you are going off of HOPE... instead of reality... you are HOPING that he gets the right coaching and gets enough conditioning or put forth the effort he needs to in order to be a good defender... it is just not the norm....

Post #87 » by **Marcus** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:43 am

Not hoping for anything. If he does or doesn't is on him. We're saying he can be a good defender if he takes the steps. You're saying he can't because he has low block numbers.

HeartBreakKid · Post #88 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:55 am

DeMarcus Cousins is a good defender though...am I missing something?

Zeitgeister · Post #89 » by **Zeitgeister** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:48 am

djphan wrote:i can probably name one... nene.. and he's just a good post defender which is not what we're talking about... i actually don't even know which players you are referring to... and if you means cousins which everyone seems to point to... i would hardly call him a good defender...

but like i said.. it's not impossible for him to be a good defender... it's just not likely... esp if you look at players who fit his kind of profile... you can say gasol, cousins and whoever turned into great defenders but there are also tons of others who never did for whatever reason...

if you don't factor that in you are going off of HOPE... instead of reality... you are HOPING that he gets the right coaching and gets enough conditioning or put forth the effort he needs to in order to be a good defender... it is just not the norm....

Most, if not all future projections of prospects are based on hope. Obviously when I hope Okafor becomes a great offensive player, I'm using his skillset, tools, and college performance as evidence that he'll probably get it, but no one knows for sure.

So while I do hope that Okafor can learn to be a good defender, the tools are there to be good so that's already a significant part of the battle. If he didn't have the tools it would be much more difficult for him to become a good defender.

djphan · Post #90 » by **djphan** » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:29 am

i would disagree with the tools part.... he basically has the over 6ft 11 and nba wingspan tool and that's about it...

but even assuming he has "tools"... how many centers with a 2 blocks per 40 minute actually turned into good defenders in the pros? and before anyone uses cousins as an example... even he had avg'ed 3 blocks per 40 in his lone year at kentucky...

you could say i'm overrating blocks .. but for college center's and to an extent pf's... i would say you would be underrating its predictive power...

humblebum · Post #91 » by **humblebum** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:39 am

Okafor looks like a 100% liability defensively outside of defensive rebounding. Doesn't have quick feet and more or less refuses to defend in space. Those slow feet also hurt his ability to defend pick and roll. And on top of that, he doesn't challenge or block shots in the paint.

He might look like Tim Duncan offensively, but defensively this guy is Greg Monroe redux.

doordoor123 · Post #92 » by **doordoor123** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 am

humblebum wrote:Okafor looks like a 100% liability defensively outside of defensive rebounding. Doesn't have quick feet and more or less refuses to defend in space. Those slow feet also hurt his ability to defend pick and roll. And on top of that, he doesn't challenge or block shots in the paint.

He might look like Tim Duncan offensively, but defensively this guy is Greg Monroe redux.

Greg Monroe has looked great on defense recently (ever since the Smith trade) I take it you don't watch pistons games?

humblebum · Post #93 » by **humblebum** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:15 am

doordoor123 wrote:
humblebum wrote:Okafor looks like a 100% liability defensively outside of defensive rebounding. Doesn't have quick feet and more or less refuses to defend in space. Those slow feet also hurt his ability to defend pick and roll. And on top of that, he doesn't challenge or block shots in the paint.

He might look like Tim Duncan offensively, but defensively this guy is Greg Monroe redux.

Greg Monroe has looked great on defense recently (ever since the Smith trade) I take it you don't watch pistons games?

Are Pistons fans even watching Pistons games?

I've watched Greg Monroe enough to know that he can defensive rebound and defend the post and that's about it. He's a pretty smart guy (like Okafor) but he's slow footed and ground bound which limits his ceiling on that end. A few weeks of improved defense, though I'd have to see for myself, do not spell anything that meaningful in my eyes.

The question for me with Okafor is will he be good enough offensively to truly offset what will likely be pretty porous defense? We shall see.

No-Man · Post #94 » by **No-Man** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:16 am

humblebum wrote:Okafor slow feet

Damon_3388 · Post #95 » by **Damon_3388** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:10 am

humblebum wrote:Okafor looks like a 100% liability defensively outside of defensive rebounding. Doesn't have quick feet and more or less refuses to defend in space. Those slow feet also hurt his ability to defend pick and roll. And on top of that, he doesn't challenge or block shots in the paint.

He might look like Tim Duncan offensively, but defensively this guy is Greg Monroe redux.

So at age 19, he can never, ever change that, and it totally offsets all the positive traits he has?

doordoor123 · Post #96 » by **doordoor123** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:25 pm

Damon_3388 wrote:
humblebum wrote:Okafor looks like a 100% liability defensively outside of defensive rebounding. Doesn't have quick feet and more or less refuses to defend in space. Those slow feet also hurt his ability to defend pick and roll. And on top of that, he doesn't challenge or block shots in the paint.

He might look like Tim Duncan offensively, but defensively this guy is Greg Monroe redux.

So at age 19, he can never, ever change that, and it totally offsets all the positive traits he has?

I think the best thing about knowing your one distinct flaw is that it's the only thing to fix. Meaning the one thing he'll be working on in his career will be defense. And as you said, he's 19. Look at Marcus Smart, a lot of scouts were down on his three point shooting and it was his biggest flaw. He knew he had to fix it and he's a decent three-point shooter now. I'd rather take a player with one big flaw than a player with flaws all over.

humblebum · Post #97 » by **humblebum** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:13 pm

Slow feet relative to defending guards. Not saying Okafor is DOOMED or anything close to that. But we've seen a lot of centers in this league with excellent offensive skills who can't defend pick and roll or perimeter oriented 5's out there and their value is lessened.

Now can Okafor get to the point, like Duncan, where he never misses a defensive rotation, is a communicator, and a physical presence? Sure... but looking at him so far... it's definitely a "hole" in his game.

Post #98 » by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:21 pm

im guessing its more or less something he's never truly been taught and or held responsible for. that should/will change in the league. then the onus will be on him and how much he wants to be a complete player.

Kinger95 · Post #99 » by **Kinger95** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:27 pm

People make okafors offence sound like he's gonna Tim Duncan(esque) at least on O

Post #100 » by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:34 pm

really think people took that Duncan thing out of context. It should be/is more of a reference to how consistent Jah stays on offense as in how he plays within the flow of the offense and rarely forces even with the offense being ran through him. Even when he hasn't gotten a shot up in a while if the smarter play is to wait out the defense and move the ball then that's what he'll do. Something you don't normally get out of 19 year kids that are and have been the focal point for their teams buckets for multiple years.