Troy Brown

[vincecarter4pres]

I wish he'd done the combine so I could disprove that claim, but basically we'll never know. However in terms of game tape vertically he really struggles to get above the rim despite having a very good wingspan/reach and offensively he almost completely lacks the ability to drive around an opponent one on one, which is a sure sign of a lack of burst. Not to mention the fact he's not really all that good as a one on one defender and has been cooked a number of times in such situations, which displays a lack of athleticism. He's a better athlete for his size than Troy Brown but that isn't saying much. Having said all of that while this isn't great for Mikal's NBA outcome quite a deal of this is mitigated by the fact he is very long.

Also, in terms of wing athletes, both of these would be in a bottom percentile in this draft in terms of top 40 players, guys like Khyri Thomas get hammered for their athleticism but he's likely at least on par with a Mikal Bridges and probably ahead of him in that area TBH, even if he's not the same level of prospect overall.

You once described Melvin Frazier as "toolsy" in a derogatory fashion on these boards but he at least has the athleticism to cope in the league, as do guys like Okogie or the smaller Lonnie Walker for that matter. Having a long reach is great but not if you can't stay in front of a man laterally which will be Mikal's big problem in the league.

First of all, have you watched Troy Brown play? Brown doesn’t lack the ability to beat anyone one on one. He’s explosive enough off of one foot. You want to talk about players not explosive enough off of one foot we can talk about Melvin Frazier. He also doesn’t have a strong enough handle. In the NBA he’s a shooter and a cutter but even his shooting needs work. Plus Troy Brown is perfect pace and space player because he can pass and get himself open by moving the ball and using his feel to find himself open. Troy Brown is good athletically and it’s not even a debate if you watch his games.

And Mikal Bridges is 6’7 with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan, how are you comparing him with Khyri Thomas?

When I first started doing this ten years ago I would make the same mistakes and over-value athleticism/not pay attention to the stuff that matter, but you need to look deeper into how these guys play and not just judge on combine numbers. There a bunch of guys without great combine numbers who have their physical abilities underrated. Domantas Sabonis is one off the top of my head.

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

Hold up, not to hijack this thread even further, but are we saying Mikal Bridges is a subpar athlete?

[PLO]

First of all, have you watched Troy Brown play? Brown doesn’t lack the ability to beat anyone one on one. He’s explosive enough off of one foot. You want to talk about players not explosive enough off of one foot we can talk about Melvin Frazier. He also doesn’t have a strong enough handle. In the NBA he’s a shooter and a cutter but even his shooting needs work. Plus Troy Brown is perfect pace and space player because he can pass and get himself open by moving the ball and using his feel to find himself open. Troy Brown is good athletically and it’s not even a debate if you watch his games.

And Mikal Bridges is 6’7 with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan, how are you comparing him with Khyri Thomas?

When I first started doing this ten years ago I would make the same mistakes and over-value athleticism/not pay attention to the stuff that matter, but you need to look deeper into how these guys play and not just judge on combine numbers. There a bunch of guys without great combine numbers who have their physical abilities underrated. Domantas Sabonis is one off the top of my head.

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

Hold up, not to hijack this thread even further, but are we saying Mikal Bridges is a subpar athlete?

I wouldn't exactly say sub-par, but he's not exactly like his cousin/brother/uncle Miles, is he?

[vincecarter4pres]

Idk door... I watched full games of his this season and I see what you're getting at and I'm not one to get obsessed with run jump athleticism, especially low bbiq raw projects, but Brown's first step and burst are a little sad on the NBA level. He really struggles to beat anyone one on one, guys are glued to him and this is at the college level. NBA length, athletes and schemes are going to straight up smother him. He isn't even particularly quick off ball and his laterals are solid, but not even necessarily good.

I do like him as a prospect. He's got good size and length. Even though his percentages were mediocre, he has a very workable stroke, he's a heady player, solid handle and he's creative and mixes it up. But I'd be surprised if he became a household name, his subpar athleticism is going to be his Achilles heel.

Whelp my internet just deleted everything I wrote. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you can underestimate two things in Brown’s game. His ability to get to the right spots on the floor/his feel for the game and his savvy. I don’t think he’s going to get around the Kawhi Leonards of the league, but he can still get around guys with his hesitations, fakes and crossovers.
Maybe he came out in the wrong era, I think if he had a post up game like Pierce it would enhance his game a lot, but now there aren’t a lot of wings in the post (or anyone at all).
Someone probably closest to his upside is Khris Middleton. He doesn’t destroy guys off the dribble, but he can do a lot. Khris can be the third best player on a team and I think Brown could eventually have the same kind of impact on a team.
I also disagree his athleticism will be his heel. He has huge hands and often finishes with contact (even hangs in the air), but likely with good body control.

Idk man, I just think his athleticism is that mediocre on the NBA level at a position where athleticism is pretty much a requirement.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has a long career as a mid-minute rotation player.

I would be pretty surprised if he was anywhere close to Khris Middleton in stats/impact or ability to stay on the floor that long in that big a role.

I guess surprised is sufficient though, I wouldn't be shocked. He does have a nice feel for the game, solid handle, passing and playmaking ability and knack to make tough shots. The problem is, with his lack of first step, speed and bounce a lot of that will likely be mitigated by his inability to be an initiator like a Khris Middleton or to have that big a role. He has some defensive potential as well though. He's only 19. Imho his best case is to try and reinvent himself as a mainly off ball player who can also make quick decisions when the ball is being swung around or as counters to receiving the ball on the move.

[No-Man]

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

ugh. I wish Jackson would've stayed another year at UNC to prevent the Kings from drafting him. Kings fell in love with his IQ and flashes of passing ability, but the later hasn't translated over to the NBA. All his concerns were 100% evident in his rookie year. Really pessimistic about him. Kings are still looking for a SF after spending the #15 pick on JJ. Imo, that's a big waste of a pick. I'll be surprised if he becomes anything more than a Francisco Garcia.

I don't see Mikal dropping out of the lotto. As you said, freaking JJ was drafted at #15, and he's a much much better prospect than Jackson was. SF is also very slim this year. The only way I see him dropping is if teams prefer younger players with higher ceilings.

SF isn't very slim this year, actually is quite solid for what it is normally, one little tidbit, wings with real size is an archetype that is slim EVERY year

also I like Justin, and thought he was a guy worth drafting, but not at that point, like by the end of the 1st or the early 2nd sure, but knowing that there was a group of wings that was gonna be spread from late teens, where Justin went, to 56th overall, where Jabari Bird went, I didn't see the point on drafting guys with similar career paths that high, my last wing that made the cut in that sense was OG Anunoby, then I had a group headlined by the SC guys, Thornwell and Dozier, with Brooks, Hart, Justin, Bird, Charles Cooke, Andrew White, Jeremy Morgan, Dotson, Ojeleye and Reed.

Same deal this year, after the guys that don't meet the cutoff, you are better off value wise by betting on somebody later in the 1st at the earliest, than reaching with a mid-pick when the difference in terms of prospect ain't there.

The Kings not only traded down in a stupid way, the Draft had 12-13 real good prospect in my book, they also took a guy like Jackson at 15th (over OG for example), that's a double blunder.

And I actually like Justin, I think with work and in-time he might bring value in a similar manner to Joe Ingles, but knowing where he landed I am not sure the franchise is gonna wait for him to deliver, and he might as well be more of a productive guy in his 2nd contract, and those normally end up flaming out of where they get drafted.

[No-Man]

The bolded is something you're guessing at, what we do know is that most players that think they have a chance of the first round will at least enter the draft process without committing to it, Mikal didn't even do that and that was on the back of his poor sophomore season, so really the most likely conclusion is he didn't even think he had a chance of being picked in the first round.

Oh I am not guessing whatsoever

[PLO]

The bolded is something you're guessing at, what we do know is that most players that think they have a chance of the first round will at least enter the draft process without committing to it, Mikal didn't even do that and that was on the back of his poor sophomore season, so really the most likely conclusion is he didn't even think he had a chance of being picked in the first round.

Oh I am not guessing whatsoever

Well in actual fact we both are given he didn't enter last years draft, however I feel pretty safe saying he wasn't a first round prospect at the end of last year, ostensibly on the back of his poor numbers and the fact he disappeared for large chunks of games.

You may have had him top 20 in your own personal ranking, and in fact I had him thereabouts early in the season based on what his season could have become, but I really doubt he would have been top 20 in anyone's ranking at the end of the season. His performances against ranked opponents was particularly worrying in that regard.

[vincecarter4pres]

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

Hold up, not to hijack this thread even further, but are we saying Mikal Bridges is a subpar athlete?

I wouldn't exactly say sub-par, but he's not exactly like his cousin/brother/uncle Miles, is he?

Miles Bridges is super explosive with an underrated money first step. He's a freak run and jump athlete.

Mikal Bridges is one step below freak athlete but has much better lateral movement. His handle is suspect though, so for now and possibly for good, he will have trouble utilizing his also underrated but not necessarily as good first step. Mikal is a silky smooth athlete who can and often does play above the rim.

Just because he's not highlight reel athletic like Miles does not make him a below average, average, or ho hum athlete.

It's like saying Damian Lillard isn't athletic because he's not Russell Westbrook. or saying DeRozan isn't athletic because he's not Vince Carter, or saying Jabari Parker isn't athletic because he isn't prime Blake Griffin.

[Nazrmohamed]

First of all, have you watched Troy Brown play? Brown doesn’t lack the ability to beat anyone one on one. He’s explosive enough off of one foot. You want to talk about players not explosive enough off of one foot we can talk about Melvin Frazier. He also doesn’t have a strong enough handle. In the NBA he’s a shooter and a cutter but even his shooting needs work. Plus Troy Brown is perfect pace and space player because he can pass and get himself open by moving the ball and using his feel to find himself open. Troy Brown is good athletically and it’s not even a debate if you watch his games.

And Mikal Bridges is 6’7 with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan, how are you comparing him with Khyri Thomas?

When I first started doing this ten years ago I would make the same mistakes and over-value athleticism/not pay attention to the stuff that matter, but you need to look deeper into how these guys play and not just judge on combine numbers. There a bunch of guys without great combine numbers who have their physical abilities underrated. Domantas Sabonis is one off the top of my head.

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

Hold up, not to hijack this thread even further, but are we saying Mikal Bridges is a subpar athlete?

I wouldn't say he's a bad athlete, in fact yeah he's a good athlete. I've seen some drives and dunks that show this but it'll be hard for him to reaally use it as he lacks a handle or body control. More of a straight line driver with long arms which allows him at times to simply hold the ball high and dunk over someone in semi open space.

That's not to really bash him. His shooting ability makes up for it, and he's a great open space finder. I also think he's a shooter from multiple platforms which is underrated. In other words I see him developing into a shooter like Rip Hamilton or Reggie where without much of a handle they can still get all kinds of shots, noit just three pointers exclusively.

[doordoor123]

I think you're responding here to some points I made about Mikal thinking I was writing about Troy Brown, which is my bad as this is a Troy Brown thread not a Mikal one. Just for clarity I was talking about Mikal when I wrote about not being able to beat a man one on one, not Troy Brown.

In reference to the comparison with Khyri Thomas - yes, I've already stated here that Mikal's length mitigates some of his lack of athleticism, but guys like Khyri are, as I said, hammered for their lack of athleticism but its not even acknowledged by many that's also an issue for Mikal, whether you like it or not. I've laid out exactly how it will affect his play in the NBA and in fact how its already affected his play in college. My point was, well if you're judging one player so heavily in that area, shouldn't you also at least be looking at that same area for other players? Especially players, even if they are longer and will be playing a different position, who are going to be picked much higher in the draft?

Troy Brown is NOT a good athlete, at least not in NBA terms, if he were he WOULD be putting up better combine numbers - that's why they run those tests to work out if they are good athletes or not, else, what is the point of running those tests?

FYI, and also just for clarity, I really rate Brown's dribbling and his general floor skills, my beef with him is that without a shot and without good athleticism, what are the value of those skills? Because in the NBA without those other things the value of them will be pretty negligible IMO.

Hold up, not to hijack this thread even further, but are we saying Mikal Bridges is a subpar athlete?

I wouldn't say he's a bad athlete, in fact yeah he's a good athlete. I've seen some drives and dunks that show this but it'll be hard for him to reaally use it as he lacks a handle or body control. More of a straight line driver with long arms which allows him at times to simply hold the ball high and dunk over someone in semi open space.

That's not to really bash him. His shooting ability makes up for it, and he's a great open space finder. I also think he's a shooter from multiple platforms which is underrated. In other words I see him developing into a shooter like Rip Hamilton or Reggie where without much of a handle they can still get all kinds of shots, noit just three pointers exclusively.

Exactly how I see him.

[Nazrmohamed]

As for Troy Brown I think he could be a steal considering he's slotted for the mid second round. He had an injury which definitely hurt his game this season and stock. I think he's better than he was able to show and the team that grabs him might have a steal. Nothing like star but in a redraft he'd probably be in the mid 20s

[blazersbucs40]

As for Troy Brown I think he could be a steal considering he's slotted for the mid second round. He had an injury which definitely hurt his game this season and stock. I think he's better than he was able to show and the team that grabs him might have a steal. Nothing like star but in a redraft he'd probably be in the mid 20s

Hes not going mid 2nd rd

[sipclip]

As for Troy Brown I think he could be a steal considering he's slotted for the mid second round. He had an injury which definitely hurt his game this season and stock. I think he's better than he was able to show and the team that grabs him might have a steal. Nothing like star but in a redraft he'd probably be in the mid 20s

Hes not going mid 2nd rd

I think he is confusing Troy Brown with Bruce Brown.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using RealGM mobile app

[Forte IV]

Brown's range can be anywhere from 12 with the Clippers to 30. I think he could raise from workouts or stay where he's projected by most in the late teens to mid twenties.

[Nazrmohamed]

As for Troy Brown I think he could be a steal considering he's slotted for the mid second round. He had an injury which definitely hurt his game this season and stock. I think he's better than he was able to show and the team that grabs him might have a steal. Nothing like star but in a redraft he'd probably be in the mid 20s

Hes not going mid 2nd rd

I think he is confusing Troy Brown with Bruce Brown.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using RealGM mobile app

You're absolutely right. I was.

[916fan]

lol that just means that you were unaware last year? Mikal would've easily gone top20 last year, no way he would have made it to the 2nd round, freaking Justin Jackson was picked 15th, he has also improved and showed things that people questioned about him this year in a larger role, that+needy teams justifies why he would top10

also this draft has similar talent to last years, not like it's stronger/deeper, so the context in that sense it's similar.

I have been pretty consistent, had Mikal lotto since 2016, with not much variance there, always in a similar range.

ugh. I wish Jackson would've stayed another year at UNC to prevent the Kings from drafting him. Kings fell in love with his IQ and flashes of passing ability, but the later hasn't translated over to the NBA. All his concerns were 100% evident in his rookie year. Really pessimistic about him. Kings are still looking for a SF after spending the #15 pick on JJ. Imo, that's a big waste of a pick. I'll be surprised if he becomes anything more than a Francisco Garcia.

I don't see Mikal dropping out of the lotto. As you said, freaking JJ was drafted at #15, and he's a much much better prospect than Jackson was. SF is also very slim this year. The only way I see him dropping is if teams prefer younger players with higher ceilings.

SF isn't very slim this year, actually is quite solid for what it is normally, one little tidbit, wings with real size is an archetype that is slim EVERY year

also I like Justin, and thought he was a guy worth drafting, but not at that point, like by the end of the 1st or the early 2nd sure, but knowing that there was a group of wings that was gonna be spread from late teens, where Justin went, to 56th overall, where Jabari Bird went, I didn't see the point on drafting guys with similar career paths that high, my last wing that made the cut in that sense was OG Anunoby, then I had a group headlined by the SC guys, Thornwell and Dozier, with Brooks, Hart, Justin, Bird, Charles Cooke, Andrew White, Jeremy Morgan, Dotson, Ojeleye and Reed.

Same deal this year, after the guys that don't meet the cutoff, you are better off value wise by betting on somebody later in the 1st at the earliest, than reaching with a mid-pick when the difference in terms of prospect ain't there.

The Kings not only traded down in a stupid way, the Draft had 12-13 real good prospect in my book, they also took a guy like Jackson at 15th (over OG for example), that's a double blunder.

And I actually like Justin, I think with work and in-time he might bring value in a similar manner to Joe Ingles, but knowing where he landed I am not sure the franchise is gonna wait for him to deliver, and he might as well be more of a productive guy in his 2nd contract, and those normally end up flaming out of where they get drafted.

I don't think there's enough SF depth, but that's just me. Porter Jr, Bridges, Knox, Brown, and then a drop off. There are a few guys who I see more as SGs than pure SFs. Maybe it's a wash for some teams now, but I still think you need guys who can at least matchup ok against the KD, Kawhi, PG, Lebron, etc. OG struggled mightly against Lebron, but at least he had the size to go up against him whereas someone like Justin Jackson was completely outmatched and had to guard SGs.

FWIW, a beat writer for the Kings reported that if Fox was gone before 5, they would've drafted a Tatum/Jackson at #5, then drafted Mitchell at #10. Apparently he did really well at our workout.

Joe Ingles is a bit disappointing, but seeing where JJ is at right now in terms of his development, I think Kings fans would be stoked if he could turn into Ingles in 2 years.

[No-Man]

Ingles is a top50 player, disappointing my ass

[LofJ]

Good teams make use of swiss army knives like Troy Brown. Other similar players such as Kyle Anderson in San Antonio, Evan Turner in Boston/Portland, Iguodala in San Fran, and Odom when he was playing have all been able to carve out good careers. Brown is more comparable to the first two, but they're all guys that can pass the ball from the wing. They're valuable players to have on your roster.

[doordoor123]

Ingles is a top50 player, disappointing my ass

I don’t get the Ingles comparison at all. Brown is a better ball-handler, he finishes better with contact, has bigger hands, he’s more fluid and has a thicker frame.

[No-Man]

Ingles is a top50 player, disappointing my ass

I don’t get the Ingles comparison at all. Brown is a better ball-handler, he finishes better with contact, has bigger hands, he’s more fluid and has a thicker frame.

you really have issues with following a thread man, try to read throughly

[doordoor123]

Ingles is a top50 player, disappointing my ass

I don’t get the Ingles comparison at all. Brown is a better ball-handler, he finishes better with contact, has bigger hands, he’s more fluid and has a thicker frame.

you really have issues with following a thread man, try to read throughly

I meant in general. I’ve seen the comparisons here.