Ben Saraf

[FarBeyondDriven]

It's good league. Top-10 league in the world. And some of highlights are from EuroCup which is probably 3rd best basketball competition after NBA and Euroleague.

Any team Saraf play against in those highlights would smash average NCAA-1 mid-major team with 50+ pts gap, and would win like 9 of 10 games against high-major teams.

Maybe one of reasons things look easy is that Saraf is literally the best ever scorer in "age-categories" Euro championships with 24+ ppg on Euro U16 and 28+ ppg on Euro U18.

Just to add to estimation of actual level. In Saraf's team - Ulm, there's American player which together with Saraf was signed at the beginning of season, and when he got injured they added another American guy in the middle of year. First averaged 8.5 / 4.5 / 1.1 and second just 4.1 / 3.6 / 1.5. Now. First is Isaiah Roby which played some 150 games in NBA in 2019 - 2023 with 7.7 ppg average, the second is Nate Hinton which played 38 games including 15 in 2023/24 (without any success though). This league is good enough - not every player with recent stints in NBA can even carve role in rotation.

Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight), he was the side-kick of Deni on Euro U20, and never was prospect of anywhere close level to Saraf.

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

huh? what makes you think they aren't good enough to play in the g league? also, some of them have been on NBA benches.

I'm talking currently. If they were good enough to still be on NBA benches or in the G-League or in a tougher overseas league they would be. Aged out 26 y/o guys like Hinton are no longer good enough hence they're forced to play in this much weaker league.

[arusinov]

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

Nate Hinton - that signed in the middle of season guy which played 13 min per game scoring 4.6 ppg, which got cut to 11 min (3.0 ppg) in playoffs, was last year G-League All-Defensive Team selection.

I mean, at soon to be 26 y/o, he's almost assuredly out of the G-League for good since he's aged out of being an NBA prospect so like I said "aren't good enough for the G-League (currently) or on an NBA bench."

Sorry. It doesn't make any sense. 26 y/o player is in the beginning/middle of his prime. Hinton didn't became magically not good enough to play in G-League as he reached 26. Probably he understood that what he was doing for like 4 years, e.g playing in G-league (for at most some $70K per season) with several not successful stints in NBA doesn't bring him anywhere and he should settle down. It doesn't change the fact that he was good G-league player (as getting several chances in NBA shows) but G-League is generally pretty much garbage league.

[arusinov]

...
Yam Madar is just too small and skinny (Saraf is 3" taller with some 25 lbs more weight) ...

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

This is Israel - Ukraine on Euro 2025 Qual. Madar is #11. Saraf is #77. I don't think you're going to mix one with another:

Watch on YouTube

[JMAC3]

I think trying to make a case the league is good because Nate Hinton didn't play much feels pretty circumstantial. What guys from the German League have went to NBA or Spanish League and found a lot of success? That would be a better indicator to me.

[SeattleJazzFan]

well this is why I was asking when they were getting measurements because while I do think he's bigger I don't think it's 3" and 25 lbs bigger but having that information would surely help.

As far as these former D1 players, these guys aren't even good enough to play in tougher leagues overseas let alone the G-League or on NBA benches so I'm not impressed.

Should Saraf end up being a starting NBA point guard I'll happily admit I was wrong

huh? what makes you think they aren't good enough to play in the g league? also, some of them have been on NBA benches.

I'm talking currently. If they were good enough to still be on NBA benches or in the G-League or in a tougher overseas league they would be. Aged out 26 y/o guys like Hinton are no longer good enough hence they're forced to play in this much weaker league.

they wouldn't necessarily be in the g league though - they make a lot more overseas than they do in the g league. the g league isn't a step up from those top european leagues.

[The-Power]

Even if the argument is that these teams that Ulm plays is equivalent to the teams in the SEC then Essengue and Saraf averaging 12 ppg isn't all that impressive and I would probably say SEC had more talented rosters.

You can't just look at PPG without at least considering MPG and usage. Compare Essengue to someone like Bailey after adjusting for minutes and it's quite clear that Essengue looks better all things considered (including and especially in Eurocup games). Saraf with his production would also raise eyebrows in the SEC.

[JMAC3]

Even if the argument is that these teams that Ulm plays is equivalent to the teams in the SEC then Essengue and Saraf averaging 12 ppg isn't all that impressive and I would probably say SEC had more talented rosters.

You can't just look at PPG without at least considering MPG and usage. Compare Essengue to someone like Bailey after adjusting for minutes and it's quite clear that Essengue looks better all things considered (including and especially in Eurocup games). Saraf with his production would also raise eyebrows in the SEC.

Saraf is probably fine in the SEC, but after looking at the competition again I am really unsure if the BBL is equal to the SEC. The league is considerably worse that the French league, where we have seen guys Salaun, Risacher and Melvin Ajinca average double digits. Is he better than Nunez? Who the Spurs didn't even bring over after drafting him last year, I see them pretty similar at this point.

[The-Power]

Saraf is probably fine in the SEC, but after looking at the competition again I am really unsure if the BBL is equal to the SEC.

And this is based on what criteria? Also keep in mind that they also played in the EuroCup (and Essengue actually played better in that competition).

[Walton1one]

Ulm was 9-9 in Euro cup, which is the 2nd tier tournament to Euroleague.

Yes, they beat Alba Berlin in Bundesliga playoffs, Alba-Berlin is dead last in the Euroleague @ 5-29.

[FarBeyondDriven]

huh? what makes you think they aren't good enough to play in the g league? also, some of them have been on NBA benches.

I'm talking currently. If they were good enough to still be on NBA benches or in the G-League or in a tougher overseas league they would be. Aged out 26 y/o guys like Hinton are no longer good enough hence they're forced to play in this much weaker league.

they wouldn't necessarily be in the g league though - they make a lot more overseas than they do in the g league. the g league isn't a step up from those top european leagues.

it's not? How are guys a step away from the best league in the world not a step up from Euro leagues? Or are you referring to strictly money?

[JMAC3]

Saraf is probably fine in the SEC, but after looking at the competition again I am really unsure if the BBL is equal to the SEC.

And this is based on what criteria? Also keep in mind that they also played in the EuroCup (and Essengue actually played better in that competition).

Well for one the SEC is going to put a lot more players in the NBA.
Tre Johnson, Fears, CMB, Newell, Clayton, Broome, Thiero, Lanier, Sears, Alijah Martin, Amari Williams, Kobe Brea, Jalon Moore, Grant Nelson.. plus future pros like Tettiford, Philon, Condon, Haugh, Oweha and Knox.

20 guys just in the SEC who will likely be on NBA rosters in the next 13 months vs what maybe 3 guys in the entire Budnesliga league?

And as mentioned the representatives from the Bundesliga league have a terrible record in Euroleague which doesn't do league a lot of favors when your representative is by far the worst team in the league at 5-29

[The-Power]

Well for one the SEC is going to put a lot more players in the NBA.
...
20 guys just in the SEC who will likely be on NBA rosters in the next 13 months vs what maybe 3 guys in the entire Budnesliga league?

That is a question of talent, not current ability. Most of the players you just mentioned are not going to be in the NBA because they are proper NBA players but because teams hope they could develop into that.

This distinction seems lost to a lot of people. There are high school programs who have multiple future NBA players on their squad. That doesn't mean they can beat professional basketball players overseas who will never sniff the NBA.

And as mentioned the representatives from the Bundesliga league have a terrible record in Euroleague which doesn't do league a lot of favors when your representative is by far the worst team in the league at 5-29

Currently, Bayern Munich has a 19-15 record in the EuroLeague. They are 24-8 in the Bundesliga and basically tied in the standings with Ulm in the standings this season. Alba Berlin, who have the poor record in the EL, are a mid-table team.

Also, pointing out EL records is a bit besides the point anyways when we're talking about the SEC in comparison to other leagues. SEC teams would also do terribly in the EL considering that it's the second best basketball league in the world. Most SEC teams only have a couple players on their rosters who will ever be good enough to play an important role for EL teams (not even talking about right now).

[SeattleJazzFan]

I'm talking currently. If they were good enough to still be on NBA benches or in the G-League or in a tougher overseas league they would be. Aged out 26 y/o guys like Hinton are no longer good enough hence they're forced to play in this much weaker league.

they wouldn't necessarily be in the g league though - they make a lot more overseas than they do in the g league. the g league isn't a step up from those top european leagues.

it's not? How are guys a step away from the best league in the world not a step up from Euro leagues? Or are you referring to strictly money?

every pro is a step away from the best league in the world if the nba wants them. the point in regard to money is that it is going to take some guys who would otherwise be in the g league overseas. the idea that if you can't make it in the g league, you go overseas, couldn't be further from the truth.

[arusinov]

Ok. Here's my full scale Israeli Saraf's "stan" rant trying to explain why Saraf's achievements in Israel U18 and in Ulm are really under-appreciated

First, Ulm. German league is somewhat weaker (but not that much) than French league and certainly weaker than Spanish ACB. But specifically this season Ulm is different story that "generally" German league team. They played also in EuroCup (very good competition, maybe 2nd best outside NBA after EuorLeague) and looked rather good finishing on 50% 9w/9l , they finished 2nd in German BBL regular season just 1 win behind Bayern which is above average EuroLeague team, they also last week swept 3:0 in QF Alba Berlin (which technically was EuroLeague team, but the dead worst one to say the truth). Being the leader of good pro-team is very important and extremely rare for 18 y/o, for example in Killian Hayes' season in Ulm (which had similar to Saraf stats, with somewhat more efficient scoring) they were not good at all team - also played in EuroCup but was horrible really worst team there - 1w/9l, and below average team in German league.

Now about stats. Over 50 games for Ulm in all competitions he averages 12.4 on 46 / 31 / 75 split, 4.3 ast. He is now the best scorer of the team (which has very balanced scoring among their best players) together with 2020 51th pick Justian Jessup, and leads team by large margin in assists. He is playing almost exclusively PG, and the team really has no other good option at #1. Plummer and Weidemann are smallish guards, quick and good ball-handlers - but they can't pass at all, both averaging ~ 2 ast with horrible ast/to ratio. And Jessup can distribute ball really good - but he is 6'7" wing which is rather slow and average ball handler. The only player of Ulm which is quick (Saraf is not slow at all, he just switches speed all the time, but his top gear is actually quick enough), the team's best ball handler, and clearly best distributor is Saraf, and he has huge impact on their success this season. Unlike what is said about him - Saraf is not bad shooter. He is good midrange pull-up shooter and his 3P shot success was low in Ulm to some level because the way they played - they have a lot good 3P shooters, and no good penetrators/distributors except Saraf so very large percent of his 3P shots was very hard 3P pull-ups to bail out stuck possession.


Speaking about Euro U18 where Saraf got MVP award. Usually MVP in such tournaments is the best player of winner team. It was not the case here. Israel lost in 2xOT to Serbia in semifinal, Saraf still got MVP award because he clearly was the best player in the field which included Traore, Essengue, Kasparas Jakucionis, Hugo Gonzales and others. It was probably the best performance of any player in any "age-category" Euro championship ... ever. Saraf averaged 28.1 pts(45 / 36 / 76 split ) , 5.0 rbs, 5.1 ast and 4 stl. No one scored 28+ ppg since 1998. No one scored more than Saraf since 1980s.

It's really weird how underrated and underappreciated Saraf is. If your favorite team has pick after #15 - they should take Ben Saraf

[BigGargamel]

I’d take him over many guys mocked ahead of him. When a guy draws legit Manu comps, I’m in.

Manu is a lazy comp, because they're both foreign combo guards. Saraf is no Manu, not even close.

[Chi town]

I agree Saraf should be 15-30 not 25-30.

[MrTribbiani]

Eh he has too many holes in his game for me to take him in the first round ahead of better prospects. I have him at 40 to Washington.

[pad300]

Saraf is probably fine in the SEC, but after looking at the competition again I am really unsure if the BBL is equal to the SEC.

And this is based on what criteria? Also keep in mind that they also played in the EuroCup (and Essengue actually played better in that competition).

Well for one the SEC is going to put a lot more players in the NBA.
Tre Johnson, Fears, CMB, Newell, Clayton, Broome, Thiero, Lanier, Sears, Alijah Martin, Amari Williams, Kobe Brea, Jalon Moore, Grant Nelson.. plus future pros like Tettiford, Philon, Condon, Haugh, Oweha and Knox.

20 guys just in the SEC who will likely be on NBA rosters in the next 13 months vs what maybe 3 guys in the entire Budnesliga league?

And as mentioned the representatives from the Bundesliga league have a terrible record in Euroleague which doesn't do league a lot of favors when your representative is by far the worst team in the league at 5-29

This argument is either disingenuousness or stupidity...

The fly in the ointment is, of course, draft eligibility!
Just about every player in the SEC is draft eligible, and yes the best 20 or so will get a shot in the next couple of drafts.
90+% of the players in the Bundesliga are not draft eligible, being over 23... If you made a list of the 20 best players in the Bundesliga this season, neither Ben nor Noa would make the list. But those 20+ better players will not get drafted, because they are not eligible... That does not mean that those better players are not on the floor competing against Ben and Noa and other international prospects.

If you mashed the two leagues into one for next season, the Bundesliga teams would take the top 10 spots ...

[arusinov]

And this is based on what criteria? Also keep in mind that they also played in the EuroCup (and Essengue actually played better in that competition).

Well for one the SEC is going to put a lot more players in the NBA.
Tre Johnson, Fears, CMB, Newell, Clayton, Broome, Thiero, Lanier, Sears, Alijah Martin, Amari Williams, Kobe Brea, Jalon Moore, Grant Nelson.. plus future pros like Tettiford, Philon, Condon, Haugh, Oweha and Knox.

20 guys just in the SEC who will likely be on NBA rosters in the next 13 months vs what maybe 3 guys in the entire Budnesliga league?

And as mentioned the representatives from the Bundesliga league have a terrible record in Euroleague which doesn't do league a lot of favors when your representative is by far the worst team in the league at 5-29

This argument is either disingenuousness or stupidity...

The fly in the ointment is, of course, draft eligibility!
Just about every player in the SEC is draft eligible, and yes the best 20 or so will get a shot in the next couple of drafts.
90+% of the players in the Bundesliga are not draft eligible, being over 23... If you made a list of the 20 best players in the Bundesliga this season, neither Ben nor Noa would make the list. But those 20+ better players will not get drafted, because they are not eligible... That does not mean that those better players are not on the floor competing against Ben and Noa and other international prospects.

If you mashed the two leagues into one for next season, the Bundesliga teams would take the top 10 spots ...

I agree but I would say that Ben and Noa would actually probably make top-20 list in Geman BBL this season - as they both top-5 players (and Saraf is arguably the best player) of 2nd best team in the league, but it's what is unique here as it almost never the case with 18/19 y/o prospects

[JMAC3]

And this is based on what criteria? Also keep in mind that they also played in the EuroCup (and Essengue actually played better in that competition).

Well for one the SEC is going to put a lot more players in the NBA.
Tre Johnson, Fears, CMB, Newell, Clayton, Broome, Thiero, Lanier, Sears, Alijah Martin, Amari Williams, Kobe Brea, Jalon Moore, Grant Nelson.. plus future pros like Tettiford, Philon, Condon, Haugh, Oweha and Knox.

20 guys just in the SEC who will likely be on NBA rosters in the next 13 months vs what maybe 3 guys in the entire Budnesliga league?

And as mentioned the representatives from the Bundesliga league have a terrible record in Euroleague which doesn't do league a lot of favors when your representative is by far the worst team in the league at 5-29

This argument is either disingenuousness or stupidity...

The fly in the ointment is, of course, draft eligibility!
Just about every player in the SEC is draft eligible, and yes the best 20 or so will get a shot in the next couple of drafts.
90+% of the players in the Bundesliga are not draft eligible, being over 23... If you made a list of the 20 best players in the Bundesliga this season, neither Ben nor Noa would make the list. But those 20+ better players will not get drafted, because they are not eligible... That does not mean that those better players are not on the floor competing against Ben and Noa and other international prospects.

If you mashed the two leagues into one for next season, the Bundesliga teams would take the top 10 spots ...

If the players were better in Bundesliga the NBA would be bringing players over to the NBA regardless if they are draft eligible or not. We do this every year, for awhile it was the Gleague was so much better than NCAA too because they were older players, pretty much every player that came out of that league struggled more than the college players to adjust to NBA.

I think Saraf is a good late round swing, he did enough international play to secure his draft slot but I would feel much better about selecting him if he played in a better league. BBL lacks top tier talent. Carsen Edwards is one of the best players in the league and he never could catch on in the NBA, guys drafted out of the SEC this year will be better than Edwards by the end of their rookie years.