Jabari Smith Jr. - Auburn

[Colbinii]

Paolo leading scorer on the 4th seed in the East.
Jabari 4th leading scorer on 8th seed in West.

Cherry picking stats to make it seem like a conversation at this point is doing too much.
If Jabari made the jump to Paolo, he probably would win most improved player, that is how far the gap is right now.

But Orlando isn't a good offensive team.

That's like saying Anthony Edwards is better offensively than Tyrese Haliburton since the Wolves are #1 out West and the Pacers are #8 out East.

Fun Fact: The magic have a 112 Ortg with Paolo and a 118 Ortg without him

His net on/off is -11, which is like saying the Orlando Magic are as good as the Pacers WITHOUT Paolo and as bad as the Spurs WITH Paolo.

Another way to look at it:

Houston is a defensive-1st team and Jabari is one of their best defenders.

Orlando is a defensive-1st team and Paolo is not one of their best defenders.

No it would be like saying Anthony Edwards is a better offensive player than Obi Toppin if we are being honest.

Paolo is a better scorer than Jabari. Paolo is asked to do a lot more offensively and does it at a respectable level. It is really impressive what Paolo is able to do, but we aren't seeing it show up beyond the box score yet.

I think Jabari is better in terms of impacting a team and helping them win at the moment, which is impressive considering Jabari is nearly a full year younger than Paolo.

[JMAC3]

Paolo leading scorer on the 4th seed in the East.
Jabari 4th leading scorer on 8th seed in West.

Cherry picking stats to make it seem like a conversation at this point is doing too much.
If Jabari made the jump to Paolo, he probably would win most improved player, that is how far the gap is right now.

*lists every single relevant metric*

CHeRrY PiCKInG STaTs


Paolo is scoring more because he's shooting more, 6 more shots per game than Bari, that's pretty much it, Bari is a more efficient scorer across the board.

and Paolo has a negative net rating (-4) compared to Baris +12, and Paolo has a -11.3 On/Off, literally the second worse on his entire team.

Jabari isn't shooting a lot because he isn't a good offensive player. Shocker the guy that can be a 4th or 5th option is more efficient than a guy that needs to score 20+ a night for his team to be good.

This is like saying Bilal Coulibaly is a better offensive player than Franz Wagner because he is more efficient. If you want to ignore context and total output then yeah youre going to end up with some really awful takes using that mindset.

Also, Paolo has been better than Jabari for 90+ games, but let's act like because Jabari had a good week this conversation needs to be revisited lol

[JMAC3]

But Orlando isn't a good offensive team.

That's like saying Anthony Edwards is better offensively than Tyrese Haliburton since the Wolves are #1 out West and the Pacers are #8 out East.

Fun Fact: The magic have a 112 Ortg with Paolo and a 118 Ortg without him

His net on/off is -11, which is like saying the Orlando Magic are as good as the Pacers WITHOUT Paolo and as bad as the Spurs WITH Paolo.

Another way to look at it:

Houston is a defensive-1st team and Jabari is one of their best defenders.

Orlando is a defensive-1st team and Paolo is not one of their best defenders.

No it would be like saying Anthony Edwards is a better offensive player than Obi Toppin if we are being honest.

Paolo is a better scorer than Jabari. Paolo is asked to do a lot more offensively and does it at a respectable level. It is really impressive what Paolo is able to do, but we aren't seeing it show up beyond the box score yet.

I think Jabari is better in terms of impacting a team and helping them win at the moment, which is impressive considering Jabari is nearly a full year younger than Paolo.

I think this is false. Houston could be without Jabari for a month and probably operate on nearly the same level, whereas Orlando without Paolo is probably one of the worst teams in the league.

[clyde21]

Paolo leading scorer on the 4th seed in the East.
Jabari 4th leading scorer on 8th seed in West.

Cherry picking stats to make it seem like a conversation at this point is doing too much.
If Jabari made the jump to Paolo, he probably would win most improved player, that is how far the gap is right now.

*lists every single relevant metric*

CHeRrY PiCKInG STaTs


Paolo is scoring more because he's shooting more, 6 more shots per game than Bari, that's pretty much it, Bari is a more efficient scorer across the board.

and Paolo has a negative net rating (-4) compared to Baris +12, and Paolo has a -11.3 On/Off, literally the second worse on his entire team.

Jabari isn't shooting a lot because he isn't a good offensive player. Shocker the guy that can be a 4th or 5th option is more efficient than a guy that needs to score 20+ a night for his team to be good.

This is like saying Bilal Coulibaly is a better offensive player than Franz Wagner because he is more efficient. If you want to ignore context and total output then yeah youre going to end up with some really awful takes using that mindset.

Also, Paolo has been better than Jabari for 90+ games, but let's act like because Jabari had a good week this conversation needs to be revisited lol

if you have statistical evidence Paolo has "separated himself" from Bari, give it. otherwise you're gonna embarrass yourself in this thread like you do in every thread you participate in.

[JMAC3]

Probably not the right call to say Paolo isn't a big reason for their defense being good when he 1. plays the most mins on the team 2. Is tied for lead in Defensive Win Shares.

EPM has Paolo in 73rd percentile as a defender and Jabari 71st percentile.

[clyde21]

Probably not the right call to say Paolo isn't a big reason for their defense being good when he 1. plays the most mins on the team 2. Is tied for lead in Defensive Win Shares.

EPM has Paolo in 73rd percentile as a defender and Jabari 71st percentile.

talking about "cherry picking" lol


Paolo has a -11.3 On/Off. The 2nd worst on his entire team. If the Magic have been winning it hasnt been because of Paolo.

[Colbinii]

No it would be like saying Anthony Edwards is a better offensive player than Obi Toppin if we are being honest.

Paolo is a better scorer than Jabari. Paolo is asked to do a lot more offensively and does it at a respectable level. It is really impressive what Paolo is able to do, but we aren't seeing it show up beyond the box score yet.

I think Jabari is better in terms of impacting a team and helping them win at the moment, which is impressive considering Jabari is nearly a full year younger than Paolo.

I think this is false. Houston could be without Jabari for a month and probably operate on nearly the same level, whereas Orlando without Paolo is probably one of the worst teams in the league.

I already posted the +/- data that shows the Magic being significantly better without Paolo.

This isn't 2005. We can use most data points that simple PPG my friend.

EPM is box-score driven, especially Defensive EPM.

[JMAC3]

if you have statistical evidence Paolo has "separated himself" from Bari, give it. otherwise you're gonna embarrass yourself in this thread like you do in every thread you participate in.

Even if you ignore one is proven to be #1 option on offense... averaging 7 more ppg.

Paolo has real star qualities...
passing 21% assist rate vs 8.%
Free throws.. 45% ftr vs 21.6%
Shot creation... 30%~ more of 2s are unassisted and 20%~ more of his 3s are unassisted.

Jabari role has decreased from year 1 to year 2... usually a pretty poor sign for a players development into a lead guy.

[JMAC3]

Paolo is a better scorer than Jabari. Paolo is asked to do a lot more offensively and does it at a respectable level. It is really impressive what Paolo is able to do, but we aren't seeing it show up beyond the box score yet.

I think Jabari is better in terms of impacting a team and helping them win at the moment, which is impressive considering Jabari is nearly a full year younger than Paolo.

I think this is false. Houston could be without Jabari for a month and probably operate on nearly the same level, whereas Orlando without Paolo is probably one of the worst teams in the league.

I already posted the +/- data that shows the Magic being significantly better without Paolo.

This isn't 2005. We can use most data points that simple PPG my friend.

EPM is box-score driven, especially Defensive EPM.

They should bench him, clearly they are better without him... that is how you make this sound lololol

[Colbinii]

if you have statistical evidence Paolo has "separated himself" from Bari, give it. otherwise you're gonna embarrass yourself in this thread like you do in every thread you participate in.

Even if you ignore one is proven to be #1 option on offense... averaging 7 more ppg.

Paolo has real star qualities...
passing 21% assist rate vs 8.%
Free throws.. 45% ftr vs 21.6%
Shot creation... 30%~ more of 2s are unassisted and 20%~ more of his 3s are unassisted.

Jabari role has decreased from year 1 to year 2... usually a pretty poor sign for a players development into a lead guy.

I feel like you guys are just talking past each other.

Paolo has qualities of an offensive number one or number two option which Jabari has not shown yet at the NBA level. Meanwhile, jabari has a skill set which she has shown that is extremely scalable and plug and play to a degree where he could be an all defensive player for 10 plus years and a positive on offense.

At the end of the day Paulo will be a better player if he can prove to be a legitimate number one or elite number two option offensively. If Paulo can never become that which is possible, then it's pretty clear that Jabari will become a better NBA player.

[Colbinii]

I think this is false. Houston could be without Jabari for a month and probably operate on nearly the same level, whereas Orlando without Paolo is probably one of the worst teams in the league.

I already posted the +/- data that shows the Magic being significantly better without Paolo.

This isn't 2005. We can use most data points that simple PPG my friend.

EPM is box-score driven, especially Defensive EPM.

They should bench him, clearly they are better without him... that is how you make this sound lololol

No, I'm simply pointing to a data point that doesn't support your argument and supports my viewpoint.

That's how a debate or discussion works when one side is supporting one end and the other side of supporting the other. We we are both able to use our brains and think about this and respect different data points and respect each other's opinions but come to different opinions on the manner.

This isn't US Politics. We are both smarter than that--hopefully.

[JMAC3]

I already posted the +/- data that shows the Magic being significantly better without Paolo.

This isn't 2005. We can use most data points that simple PPG my friend.

EPM is box-score driven, especially Defensive EPM.

They should bench him, clearly they are better without him... that is how you make this sound lololol

No, I'm simply pointing to a data point that doesn't support your argument and supports my viewpoint.

That's how I debate or discussion works when one side is supporting one end and the other side of supporting the other. We we are both able to use our brains and think about this and respect different data points and respect each other's opinions but come to different opinions on the manner.

Using a stat that says Franz, Banchero and Suggs are losing players and Magic are quote on quote better with Joe Ingles, Gary Harris and Caleb Houston on the floor is probably not really worth much in an argument tbh.

Especially when you are trying to spin in Jabari favor, when if you look at the 9 guys who have played most mins for Houston he has the 8th worst +/- on off of their core lol.

[clyde21]

if you have statistical evidence Paolo has "separated himself" from Bari, give it. otherwise you're gonna embarrass yourself in this thread like you do in every thread you participate in.

Even if you ignore one is proven to be #1 option on offense... averaging 7 more ppg.

Paolo has real star qualities...
passing 21% assist rate vs 8.%
Free throws.. 45% ftr vs 21.6%
Shot creation... 30%~ more of 2s are unassisted and 20%~ more of his 3s are unassisted.

Jabari role has decreased from year 1 to year 2... usually a pretty poor sign for a players development into a lead guy.

Paolo shooting more and having higher usage is irrelevant and not necessarily a + until he can prove he can do it at a winning rate, and right now he's not, averaging efficiency at best, negative net rating, negative on/off, in the red in terms of points value added, barely treading water in replacement rate too. a lot of players can shoot and get to the FT if they have free reign to do it (derp, Jordan Poole)...doesn't mean anything unless it leads to wins and it hasn't yet for Paolo.

and Jabari's role hasn't "decreased" lol...Houston just added FVV that's the only difference.

[JMAC3]

if you have statistical evidence Paolo has "separated himself" from Bari, give it. otherwise you're gonna embarrass yourself in this thread like you do in every thread you participate in.

Even if you ignore one is proven to be #1 option on offense... averaging 7 more ppg.

Paolo has real star qualities...
passing 21% assist rate vs 8.%
Free throws.. 45% ftr vs 21.6%
Shot creation... 30%~ more of 2s are unassisted and 20%~ more of his 3s are unassisted.

Jabari role has decreased from year 1 to year 2... usually a pretty poor sign for a players development into a lead guy.

Paolo shooting more and having higher usage is irrelevant and not necessarily a + until he can prove he can do it at a winning rate, and right now he's not, averaging efficiency at best, negative net rating, negative on/off, in the red in terms of points value added, barely treading water in replacement rate too. a lot of players can shoot and get to the FT if they have free reign to do it (derp, Jordan Poole)...doesn't mean anything unless it leads to wins and it hasn't yet for Paolo.

and Jabari's role hasn't "decreased" lol...Houston just added FVV that's the only difference.

His usage, mpg and fga per game all down year over year... idk how you can say that isn't a decreased role. Especially as a #3 pick, you want to see that grow year 2 more often than not.

Also, free throws aren't something players can just add to their game at will. There is reason if you look at the top 25 players in FTA per game they are all special talents except maybe Jerami Grant.

Also hilarious you are still pushing the agenda that Paolo isn't leading to wins. He is the leading scorer, leading assists, 2nd rebounder on the 4th seed.

Michael Jordan had worse on/off than Kukoc, Harper. Probably should remove him from the goat argument by your logic lol.

[JMAC3]

Steph Curry with a -10.4 on/off, Warriors need to bench him and give those mins to Pod and CP3 who are both +13 and +11. Fire Kerr lolololol...

This is the logic currently being used in this thread to say Jabari is better than Paolo.

[clyde21]

Even if you ignore one is proven to be #1 option on offense... averaging 7 more ppg.

Paolo has real star qualities...
passing 21% assist rate vs 8.%
Free throws.. 45% ftr vs 21.6%
Shot creation... 30%~ more of 2s are unassisted and 20%~ more of his 3s are unassisted.

Jabari role has decreased from year 1 to year 2... usually a pretty poor sign for a players development into a lead guy.

Paolo shooting more and having higher usage is irrelevant and not necessarily a + until he can prove he can do it at a winning rate, and right now he's not, averaging efficiency at best, negative net rating, negative on/off, in the red in terms of points value added, barely treading water in replacement rate too. a lot of players can shoot and get to the FT if they have free reign to do it (derp, Jordan Poole)...doesn't mean anything unless it leads to wins and it hasn't yet for Paolo.

and Jabari's role hasn't "decreased" lol...Houston just added FVV that's the only difference.

His usage, mpg and fga per game all down year over year... idk how you can say that isn't a decreased role. Especially as a #3 pick, you want to see that grow year 2 more often than not.

Also, free throws aren't something players can just add to their game at will. There is reason if you look at the top 25 players in FTA per game they are all special talents except maybe Jerami Grant.

Also hilarious you are still pushing the agenda that Paolo isn't leading to wins. He is the leading scorer, leading assists, 2nd rebounder on the 4th seed.

Michael Jordan had worse on/off than Kukoc, Harper. Probably should remove him from the goat argument by your logic lol.

his usage is down from 18.4 to 18.0...

thats where I stopped reading cuz now I realized again who I am dealing with.

[JMAC3]

Paolo shooting more and having higher usage is irrelevant and not necessarily a + until he can prove he can do it at a winning rate, and right now he's not, averaging efficiency at best, negative net rating, negative on/off, in the red in terms of points value added, barely treading water in replacement rate too. a lot of players can shoot and get to the FT if they have free reign to do it (derp, Jordan Poole)...doesn't mean anything unless it leads to wins and it hasn't yet for Paolo.

and Jabari's role hasn't "decreased" lol...Houston just added FVV that's the only difference.

His usage, mpg and fga per game all down year over year... idk how you can say that isn't a decreased role. Especially as a #3 pick, you want to see that grow year 2 more often than not.

Also, free throws aren't something players can just add to their game at will. There is reason if you look at the top 25 players in FTA per game they are all special talents except maybe Jerami Grant.

Also hilarious you are still pushing the agenda that Paolo isn't leading to wins. He is the leading scorer, leading assists, 2nd rebounder on the 4th seed.

Michael Jordan had worse on/off than Kukoc, Harper. Probably should remove him from the goat argument by your logic lol.

his usage is down from 18.4 to 18.0...

thats where I stopped reading cuz now I realized again who I am dealing with. gtf outta here dork.

Yeah, it is a good call because 18 usage is pathetic all by itself. No need to even compare.

[clyde21]

His usage, mpg and fga per game all down year over year... idk how you can say that isn't a decreased role. Especially as a #3 pick, you want to see that grow year 2 more often than not.

Also, free throws aren't something players can just add to their game at will. There is reason if you look at the top 25 players in FTA per game they are all special talents except maybe Jerami Grant.

Also hilarious you are still pushing the agenda that Paolo isn't leading to wins. He is the leading scorer, leading assists, 2nd rebounder on the 4th seed.

Michael Jordan had worse on/off than Kukoc, Harper. Probably should remove him from the goat argument by your logic lol.

his usage is down from 18.4 to 18.0...

thats where I stopped reading cuz now I realized again who I am dealing with. gtf outta here dork.

Yeah, it is a good call because 18 usage is pathetic all by itself. No need to even compare.

high usage is not a positive when you're not contributing to winning, that's why Paolo's On/Off and Net Ratings are so ****.

[Roger Murdock]

I’ve watched Rockets games where Jabari just floats on the court and doesn’t really do anything the entire game. I watched Magic games where Paolo looks like a future MVP and I’ve watched Magic games where he struggled scoring and held his team back. But he’s always an impact player and has agency over the outcome of a game.

If Paolo tightens up his scoring efficiency he’s an All NBA level player pretty easily. Jabari would need to transform his game entirely to have that level of impact on a game. As it stands now he looks like a 4th option who’s an above average shooter who needs offense created for himself but doesn’t create offense for others. He’s a good and versatile defender but not a world beater there either.

Paolo right now plays like a star having a below par game, whereas Jabari plays like an ordinary guy that every team has.

[Shock Defeat]

I’ve watched Rockets games where Jabari just floats on the court and doesn’t really do anything the entire game. I watched Magic games where Paolo looks like a future MVP and I’ve watched Magic games where he struggled scoring and held his team back. But he’s always an impact player and has agency over the outcome of a game.

If Paolo tightens up his scoring efficiency he’s an All NBA level player pretty easily. Jabari would need to transform his game entirely to have that level of impact on a game. As it stands now he looks like a 4th option who’s an above average shooter who needs offense created for himself but doesn’t create offense for others. He’s a good and versatile defender but not a world beater there either.

Paolo right now plays like a star having a below par game, whereas Jabari plays like an ordinary guy that every team has.

Paolo is also 1.5 years older than Jabari. The reason Jabari is in a 4th option role is because the Rockets have Sengun who is clearly the best offensive player probably of the 2021 NBA draft, and then two guards in FVV and Jalen Green. I would argue that Jabari should be the 2nd option based on efficiency alone, but that's not how it works. Jalen has fallen off a cliff so you would see Jabari being the clear 3rd option and perhaps by the end of the year, 2nd option.

In reality Udoka has a team offensive set so everybody gets shots up in his system.