Luka Doncic

[reanimator]

Critics keep pointing out he's going to be having problems with beating defenders 1on1, but they fail to realize that even if that's true (I don't think it is), p'n'r changes things quite a bit, especially when someone is both an elite passer and a very good shooter. Adding 2 more players to the mix (the screener and his defender) makes it a whole new ballgame ... a new ballgame that plays to Doncic's advantage.

When I was green behind the ears, I also thought having plus vision and shooting with a solid handle meant a great chance of excelling as PnR player. Guys like Nik Stauskas have changed that for me dramatically. Think Doncic will have to do it via strength/physicality, add a pull up or improve his creativity/footwork as a handler to be a HIGH VOLUME PnR player.

[Kolkmania]

Critics keep pointing out he's going to be having problems with beating defenders 1on1, but they fail to realize that even if that's true (I don't think it is), p'n'r changes things quite a bit, especially when someone is both an elite passer and a very good shooter. Adding 2 more players to the mix (the screener and his defender) makes it a whole new ballgame ... a new ballgame that plays to Doncic's advantage.

When I was green behind the ears, I also thought having plus vision and shooting with a solid handle meant a great chance of excelling as PnR player. Guys like Nik Stauskas have changed that for me dramatically. Think Doncic will have to do it via strength/physicality, add a pull up or improve his creativity/footwork as a handler to be a HIGH VOLUME PnR player.

Off topic, but Stauskas really improved during his tenure as a Sixer. At the end of the year he was given the keys to run the offense multiple times and he actually performed quite well. It's not just the skills, but there are many factors whether a player succeeds or not and in Stauskas' situation the Kings were horrible for his development and confidence.

I've said it a couple of months ago, but watch Ingles play in Utah. Even if he'll never become quick enough to beat a man 1 on 1, he'll be an excellent shot creator for his teammates. However, once again the situation matters. He'll probably thrive in more motion orientated offenses where he can attack off the dribble, out of DHO P&R situations, etc.

[SportsGuy8]

Critics keep pointing out he's going to be having problems with beating defenders 1on1, but they fail to realize that even if that's true (I don't think it is), p'n'r changes things quite a bit, especially when someone is both an elite passer and a very good shooter. Adding 2 more players to the mix (the screener and his defender) makes it a whole new ballgame ... a new ballgame that plays to Doncic's advantage.

When I was green behind the ears, I also thought having plus vision and shooting with a solid handle meant a great chance of excelling as PnR player. Guys like Nik Stauskas have changed that for me dramatically. Think Doncic will have to do it via strength/physicality, add a pull up or improve his creativity/footwork as a handler to be a HIGH VOLUME PnR player.

By using Stauskas as an example, you're really not much better than the ones who keep bringing guys like Hezonja. They're simply not in the same league. Doncic is already a much better player than both of them are EVER going to be.

It's like saying you don't think Fultz's game is going to translate because Terrence Ross changed your mind ...

Doncic is already killing it whenever he gets an opportunity to run PnRs. Sadly, that's not very often, since the offense runs through Llull. You even have examples of him doing it vs. Westbrook and Oladipo:

Watch on YouTube

At 0:46 you have an example of how he uses the pick to get rid of Westbrook.
At 1:50 you have him taking advantage of the fact that Oladipo is anticipating a pick, thus getting by him easily.

That wasn't his best game, but it still showed how easily translatable his game is ...

[BoardCrusher]

Critics keep pointing out he's going to be having problems with beating defenders 1on1, but they fail to realize that even if that's true (I don't think it is), p'n'r changes things quite a bit, especially when someone is both an elite passer and a very good shooter. Adding 2 more players to the mix (the screener and his defender) makes it a whole new ballgame ... a new ballgame that plays to Doncic's advantage.

When I was green behind the ears, I also thought having plus vision and shooting with a solid handle meant a great chance of excelling as PnR player. Guys like Nik Stauskas have changed that for me dramatically. Think Doncic will have to do it via strength/physicality, add a pull up or improve his creativity/footwork as a handler to be a HIGH VOLUME PnR player.

If we look at your posts, we can see that youre still green behind the ears.

Doncic is already a top 3 PnR creator in Euroleague, at age of 18 if I might add.

[XTraderXL]

I was thinking about the F4 yesterday and especially about the Real- Fener game. I think there are only 2 options for Real to win this game. One is that Llull goes crazy and goes for 30 on 60% shooting which is highly unlikely. The other one is that Doncic plays well. I think the second option is more likely to happen since Llull had only 2 or 3 really good games this season. He has spurts but then he ruins the overall performance with hero ball and the impression is not that good in the end.

Anyway, I think Real can win the game if Doncic plays well and they dont even need Llull to go crazy. Luka will get everyone else going on offense, Llull can get only himself going and thats the difference. We saw glimpse of this in the last 5 games where Real struggled in the first two games, barely won game one and lost game 2 at home where Luka underperformed. In Istanbul DAR didnt stand a chance of winning a game and the difference maker was Doncic. Same with the last league game on Sunday, game was close until he started playing his game and the game was basically over in 5 min. If he gets 25 min and plays like he played the last 3 games, just making open shots, create for others in pick n rolls, be solid on defense and rebound/transition then Real has good chance of winning. Anything less than that, Fener is the favorite in my eyes.

What do you guys think?

[BoardCrusher]

I was thinking about the F4 yesterday and especially about the Real- Fener game. I think there are only 2 options for Real to win this game. One is that Llull goes crazy and goes for 30 on 60% shooting which is highly unlikely. The other one is that Doncic plays well. I think the second option is more likely to happen since Llull had only 2 or 3 really good games this season. He has spurts but then he ruins the overall performance with hero ball and the impression is not that good in the end.

Anyway, I think Real can win the game if Doncic plays well and they dont even need Llull to go crazy. Luka will get everyone else going on offense, Llull can get only himself going and thats the difference. We saw glimpse of this in the last 5 games where Real struggled in the first two games, barely won game one and lost game 2 at home where Luka underperformed. In Istanbul DAR didnt stand a chance of winning a game and the difference maker was Doncic. Same with the last league game on Sunday, game was close until he started playing his game and the game was basically over in 5 min. If he gets 25 min and plays like he played the last 3 games, just making open shots, create for others in pick n rolls, be solid on defense and rebound/transition then Real has good chance of winning. Anything less than that, Fener is the favorite in my eyes.

What do you guys think?

I watched almost all of RM games this season in ACB and EL. It is clear he plays better when Llull is not around, so I completely agree with your statement. It is also very obvious he has great respect for Llull and thats totaly understandable from his pov as he was mentored by him from the age of 16 when he joined the team.

[BoardCrusher]

probably posted in previous locked thread but needs to be put out again for all the haters.

close to elite passing skills, at age of 15/16

Watch on YouTube

[reanimator]

By using Stauskas as an example, you're really not much better than the ones who keep bringing guys like Hezonja. T

Stauskas was very arguably the best PnR wing in college basketball his last season. So no, this is not like Hezonja. Had Stauskas been blessed with a better frame and great foot speed, he'd be a great PnR player in the NBA, too.......which is my point about physical/athletic limitations diminishing skill level.

[Bob8]

I was thinking about the F4 yesterday and especially about the Real- Fener game. I think there are only 2 options for Real to win this game. One is that Llull goes crazy and goes for 30 on 60% shooting which is highly unlikely. The other one is that Doncic plays well. I think the second option is more likely to happen since Llull had only 2 or 3 really good games this season. He has spurts but then he ruins the overall performance with hero ball and the impression is not that good in the end.

Anyway, I think Real can win the game if Doncic plays well and they dont even need Llull to go crazy. Luka will get everyone else going on offense, Llull can get only himself going and thats the difference. We saw glimpse of this in the last 5 games where Real struggled in the first two games, barely won game one and lost game 2 at home where Luka underperformed. In Istanbul DAR didnt stand a chance of winning a game and the difference maker was Doncic. Same with the last league game on Sunday, game was close until he started playing his game and the game was basically over in 5 min. If he gets 25 min and plays like he played the last 3 games, just making open shots, create for others in pick n rolls, be solid on defense and rebound/transition then Real has good chance of winning. Anything less than that, Fener is the favorite in my eyes.

What do you guys think?

Real has 2 big problems. First, they're playing in Istanbul. That means big pressure from the crowd and Obra on Real players and referees. And second, Obra will be more prepared than Laso. He wil have options A, B, C, D...Laso only A. Real can win if Llull and Doncic will both have very good night, Carroll great shooting night and Ayon and Randolph manage to neutralize Udoh presence under the rim. Fener will switch everything, there won't be any easy shots. I don't believe Doncic can have great night under this conditions. He's simply not experienced enough.
I will be there, rooting for Real, but realistically is 60:40 for Fener.

[XTraderXL]

I already explained what I think about his athleticism and why sometimes it looks worse than it actually is. Basketball is played on a small court, rarely there are full sprints so explosiveness is very important. Explosiveness and speed diminish greatly when you have a stronger, more physical guy pushing you. Everyone and my grandmother knows and sees that Luka is not fully physically developed yet and still has problems with physical defenders so they play him like that. I know exactly how it feels for him to play under such contact. Even id he is more athletic than those players, he will have problems getting past them because it feels like he is carrying a 20kg backpack. When he gets stronger, this backpack will be gone and it will be easy for him to blow by the same defenders even if he doesnt improve his athletic ability. Many times you can see that more athletic but weaker player cant guard a stronger guy but a stronger guy can easily defend a more athletic guy (being that difference in athleticism is not too great). If Doncic played in NCAA he would look far more athletic than in Real even though the players there are considered better athletes than in the EL. The difference is that the NCAA players are not physically as strong as EL players and thats what would benefit Doncic and make him look even better.

Heck, take a look at the game against Thunder. In that game he looked faster and more explosive than in any EL game this season and he is now much better than he was 6 months ago. Thats because of the rules which do not allow such physical pressure and of course bigger court=more space=less contact which was are all good things for him offensively.

[reanimator]

Disagree, players look more athletic in Euroleagues than in American leagues at every level.

[BoardCrusher]

Read on Twitter

[XTraderXL]

To me the Euro players who go to NBA look much more athletic than in Europe. Of course American players look more athletic in a Belgian and Swedish league but no way they look better in EL than they did in NCAA. Thats just wrong. You dont think Doncic looked better athletically against OKC than against any other team in EL this season? If you cant see that, there is nothing to discuss.

[BoardCrusher]

few pages back, someone was asking about his PnR

Watch on YouTube

good read on Luka

http://ballineurope.com/luka-doncic-real-madrid-profile-basketball-6032/

[sam_I_am]

@mirotic12

Zisis is incredible bad shooter, very close to Calathes. And he's not good rebounder either. I don't see many similarities except movement.

Jaric is maybe more similar, but he's worse shooter than Doncic. I have the feeling that shooting ability will help Doncic a lot to overcome some athletic minuses.

Zisis is many, many times a better shooter than Calathes. Zisis is the best mid range shooter in Europe, and it's not even close either. He's an inconsistent and streaky 3 point shooter, but he definitely has deep range, and if you leave him open, he will make you pay most of the time.......he's miles and miles better than Calathes as a shooter. I can't believe you have ever seen Zisis play to compare those two in terms of shooting.

Jaric wasn't a bad shooter either. 3 point shooting wasn't his strength, but he had 3 point range, and he was a decent shooter. Either way, this is the player type Doncic is, same as another guy like Planinic, etc. I'm not saying he's the exact same player as these guys, but it's very obvious that he's that same player type as them.

He's definitely not a Bodiroga player type.

That's why names like Papaloukas, Zisis, Planinic, Jaric and such come up in this thread....because he's in that player type. No way is he in the player type of Bodiroga.

Maybe, MAYBE defenders look better in Europe because they're not facing players who are elite?

Playing great defense as a SF in Spanish league and in the NBA is completely different. Put good defenders in europe to face Lebron, Kawhi, Giannis and Durant and see if they dont get embarrassed

Sure is easy to be a great post defender when you face dudes who would be role players in the NBA. Try defending Cousins.

This idea that NBA players are bad defenders or don't care about defense is ridiculous. I mean, I'm sorry, but Doncic, a below average dude athletically (NBA wise) is dominating defenders.

Also, people keep repeating that the way fouls are called, and the different rules makes it more difficult to score in Europe. Fine, But how is that the players' merit? If rules and zone hide defenders better, improving overall defense, you can't have the balls to say individually defenders are actually that good.

Also, nothing that you said made sense. Rasho never said better defenders, he said capable of playing better defense, physical-wise. Learn to read.

Every time EuroLeague teams play against NBA teams, all of these myths are immediately erased. But some people pretend it doesn't happen. You can see every time in those NBA against EuroLeague games, that NBA players are definitely not some kind of vastly superior athletes to the ones in EuroLeague. It's simply not true.

Maybe, maybe there are like 3-4 guys in NBA that would stand out athletically....that's about it. There is a LeBron or Westbrook kind of guy.........anything else pretty much has an equivalent in European basketball. It's just a myth that says otherwise.

It's actually true that most EuroLeague players look noticeably more athletic in NBA than they do in EuroLeague. They suddenly become "more athletic" playing under NBA rules. In other words, they are not actually more athletic, it's the rules and reffing, which should really be obvious to anyone that understands basketball. It's known quite well in NCAA that anyone with decent athleticism will have it easier in NBA, so why it's some big mystery on the NBA side is quite strange....wait, it's not actually....it's all about NBA marketing schemes.

Not just does the NBA market that it has the world's best athletes, it also markets that EuroLeague has no athletes at all.....even if the first claim is true, the second claim is an extreme lie, that some people still believe anyway.

Looks like a young Larry Bird in those highlights. If he can do that at NBA level he is a can't miss star. He's only 18 and doing that stuff against men. Impressive.

It's a highlight video, and he gets little defensive attention in Europe...he's down on the list of players on his team that defenses worry about.

In comparison to Bird........Doncic is many, many country miles away in terms of being able to create his own shot and score the basketball. He struggles quite a bit to create his own shot, being the like 5th guy teams are worried about defensively in his team. So he's about on the other opposite side of the spectrum from Bird offensively, since Bird could create his own shot under any circumstance.

Doncic = struggles to create his own shot
Bird = maybe the best ever in basketball history at creating his own shot.

Yeah, but at age 18 Bird quit Indiana and had to transfer. Probably happened because of his own insecurity but still you have to admit Doncic is playing a bigger stage at a much younger age. I'm not predicting the next LB btw, I just see a highly skilled 6-10 guy with range, passing and a willingness to play physically as well.

MVP of euro league finals at age 18 is no joke. Most elite Top 5 picks of last 4 years have to even make an impact in NBA playoffs yet.

[SportsGuy8]

Yeah, but at age 18 Bird quit Indiana and had to transfer. Probably happened because of his own insecurity but still you have to admit Doncic is playing a bigger stage at a much younger age. I'm not predicting the next LB btw, I just see a highly skilled 6-10 guy with range, passing and a willingness to play physically as well.

MVP of euro league finals at age 18 is no joke. Most elite Top 5 picks of last 4 years have to even make an impact in NBA playoffs yet.

No, no, no, no, NOOOOOO. You don't know what you have done! Take it back, TAKE IT BACK!




Mirotic's height rant incoming in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...

[JPF]

Yeah, but at age 18 Bird quit Indiana and had to transfer. Probably happened because of his own insecurity but still you have to admit Doncic is playing a bigger stage at a much younger age. I'm not predicting the next LB btw, I just see a highly skilled 6-10 guy with range, passing and a willingness to play physically as well.

MVP of euro league finals at age 18 is no joke. Most elite Top 5 picks of last 4 years have to even make an impact in NBA playoffs yet.

No, no, no, no, NOOOOOO. You don't know what you have done! Take it back, TAKE IT BACK!




Mirotic's height rant incoming in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...

...if I write down Dončič is only 6'4, do I make it even?

[Mirotic12]

There are plenty of other examples. Jaylen Hoard is currently averaging less than 10 points per game (3rd on his team) on 40% shooting in the EYBL after finishing 2nd in scoring at FIBA U17.

There is no reason to even compare a worldwide under 17 tournament, to an under 18 European, and especially an under 20 European. The latter two are clearly and without debate stronger. Much better teams, and older players (by 3 years in the under-20). This really isn't in the least bit controversial...it's just basically obvious, and not even to be debated quite frankly.

[nolang1]

There are plenty of other examples. Jaylen Hoard is currently averaging less than 10 points per game (3rd on his team) on 40% shooting in the EYBL after finishing 2nd in scoring at FIBA U17.

There is no reason to even compare a worldwide under 17 tournament, to an under 18 European, and especially an under 20 European. The latter two are clearly and without debate stronger. Much better teams, and older players (by 3 years in the under-20). This really isn't in the least bit controversial...it's just basically obvious, and not even to be debated quite frankly.

Don't care about your trolling.

[Mirotic12]

How good is he at splitting the defenders? Most Euros cant do it at all, but the ones who can, it really opens new dimension to their game. If you want to be great perimeter player, you must be able to split defenders at will.

He's not that good at it...he's 18 after all. But this is overrated as an issue. probably the best European guard I've ever seen at splitting defenders is Roko Ukic. And the NBA wouldn't even barely give him a chance to play, when he was there. Despite him having a great ability to split the defense.

Yeah, but at age 18 Bird quit Indiana and had to transfer. Probably happened because of his own insecurity but still you have to admit Doncic is playing a bigger stage at a much younger age. I'm not predicting the next LB btw, I just see a highly skilled 6-10 guy with range, passing and a willingness to play physically as well.

MVP of euro league finals at age 18 is no joke. Most elite Top 5 picks of last 4 years have to even make an impact in NBA playoffs yet.

#1. Doncic is 6-7 to maybe 6-8 in shoes. He's absolutely not 6-10. Why that keeps getting posted here........how many times do we have to show he is shorter than other guys in his team that are 6-8 to 6-9?

#2. Doncic wasn't the MVP of the EuroLeague Finals. That simply isn't true. He has not even played in the EuroLeague Finals.

So if you are basing this on him being 6-10, and being MVP of the EuroLeague Finals...then you are basing your views on two things that are false and totally untrue.