2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects

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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#46 » by ManualRam » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:29 pm

bigboi wrote:^^ Wow, that's bad. I say March Madness, we'll know if he can become a future star. Also on Meyers Leornard, I haven't been able to watch him, but looking at descriptions of him he sounds like Sabonis, what's a good comparison for him?

i really cant think of a good comparison for meyers.
young sabonis was a once in a generation type talent. he was a bigger, stronger athlete with even more range and better touch around the paint...and yeah, he was just better at everything.

closest contemporary player imo is pau, but meyers is a springier, less fluid athlete with the frame to put on much more weight.

it should be noted that meyers was one of those kids who kept growing throughout HS. he didnt have an anthony davis-like growth spurt in one summer, but he just kept growing every yr. he started off as a guard in HS. by the time he signed with illinois as a junior he was a 6'10 PF/C. he came onto campus as a 7'er and came into this yr an inch taller.
he started out as a guard and has been able to retain some of his guard skills, namely his shooting touch, passing and ability to run the floor.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#47 » by peachbucket » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:36 am

bigboi wrote:^^ Wow, that's bad. I say March Madness, we'll know if he can become a future star. Also on Meyers Leornard, I haven't been able to watch him, but looking at descriptions of him he sounds like Sabonis, what's a good comparison for him?


Slightly bigger and more athletic Tim Duncan.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#48 » by ManualRam » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:01 am

peachbucket wrote:
bigboi wrote:^^ Wow, that's bad. I say March Madness, we'll know if he can become a future star. Also on Meyers Leornard, I haven't been able to watch him, but looking at descriptions of him he sounds like Sabonis, what's a good comparison for him?


Slightly bigger and more athletic Tim Duncan.

you understand what you're saying dont you?

TD at the same stage was light yrs ahead of leonard. first of all, he was able to hold his position both in the post and when rebounding. 2nd, TD was an incredible rebounder in college. he had an underrated combination of strength and fluidity that meyers doesnt have. meyers gets his boards because of his size, massive wingspan and hops, not because he has a nose for the ball or was a master of positioning like duncan. duncan had the ability to anticipate and had better reflexes (on both ends of the floor) which is a huge difference b/t he and meyers.

i mean, if you strip duncan's game down to its bare essentials then yeah, maybe there is some similarity, but what made TD so awesome was how great he was in all those areas. he was very good in those areas early on in his development as well.
then there's the whole discussion about intangibles where TD was king...

the comparison is a big stretch and i think you know that.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#49 » by UGA Hayes » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:20 pm

I can't think of a great one for Leonard either. An athletic brad miller maybe.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#50 » by Ruzious » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:31 pm

theboomking wrote:
ManualRam wrote:i honestly expected a projected #1 overall pick to be more skilled than he is right now.
to me, having supreme talent is never an excuse for being as raw as he is.
if a prospect recognizes what he needs to work on, has the work ethic to improve and has the ability to apply new skills to game action, there should never be an inverse relationship b/t talent and skill.
drummond wasnt exactly dominant in HS either, but it seemed as though he read his press clippings and thought that who he was was good enough to dominate at the higher levels.


It isn't really his skill level that bothers me. Drummond appears to lack toughness and desire. He is big bodies, has elite length, very soft hands, and can jump out of the gym. Drummond ought to be rebounding the hell out of the ball and scoring at least 8-10 a game on putbacks. Here are some of his stat lines:

12 min 0 pts 4 reb
18 min 8pt 5reb
12 min 4pt 4 reb
22 min 9pt 5 reb
17min 1pt 1reb
25min 12pt 4reb
36min 4pt 7 reb

That looks like a lack of fire and will. Drummond was constantly mentioned as a once in a decade big man of the same caliber of The Admiral, Hakeem, Oden, Dwight, etc. In truth, Drummond has been more in line with a Derrick Favors that doesn't rebound as well.

I think the problem is much more with the expecations people have for the player than it is with the player. He's a freshman under an electron microscope. There wasn't any such thing when guys like Hakeem and the Admiral were frosh - If there was, there would have been similar threads like this about them with folks picking on things to doubt about them. As of now, Drummond has not played himself out of being a top 2 pick in the 2012 draft.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#51 » by peachbucket » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:16 pm

ManualRam wrote:
peachbucket wrote:
bigboi wrote:^^ Wow, that's bad. I say March Madness, we'll know if he can become a future star. Also on Meyers Leornard, I haven't been able to watch him, but looking at descriptions of him he sounds like Sabonis, what's a good comparison for him?


Slightly bigger and more athletic Tim Duncan.

you understand what you're saying dont you?

TD at the same stage was light yrs ahead of leonard. first of all, he was able to hold his position both in the post and when rebounding. 2nd, TD was an incredible rebounder in college. he had an underrated combination of strength and fluidity that meyers doesnt have. meyers gets his boards because of his size, massive wingspan and hops, not because he has a nose for the ball or was a master of positioning like duncan. duncan had the ability to anticipate and had better reflexes (on both ends of the floor) which is a huge difference b/t he and meyers.

i mean, if you strip duncan's game down to its bare essentials then yeah, maybe there is some similarity, but what made TD so awesome was how great he was in all those areas. he was very good in those areas early on in his development as well.
then there's the whole discussion about intangibles where TD was king...

the comparison is a big stretch and i think you know that.


I understand exactly what I'm saying but let me clarify for you....The question was what NBA player is a good comparison for Meyers Leonard. Obviously, I'm not comparing Leonard now to Duncan in his prime or even when he was drafted (which was his senior year). I'm actually talking about his skill set and what his POTENTIAL may be going forward based on that skill set. For me, Duncan is the best NBA comparison. Both are 7 footers with freakish length, are athletic, have great touch with a midrange game, great hands, are terrific passers, and have a high basketball iq. Again, I'm not saying Leonard will be one of the greatest players of his generation....but I am saying that I believe he has that 'type' of raw talent and will have a chance if he maximizes his potential.

If you want to compare them at the same stage of development I would say that the biggest difference is that Duncan had better lower body strength which allowed him to hold his position better...that should be a fairly quick and easy fix with some NBA level strength development.
And by the way, here are Duncan's stats from his sophmore year at Wake...which compare quite favorably with Leonard this year...so the discrepancy at the same stage of development is not nearly as great as you state

MPG FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
36.5 6.5 11.0 .591 0.1 0.2 .429 3.7 5.0 .742 12.5 2.1 0.4 4.2 2.8 2.4 16.8
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#52 » by ZarcMumoff » Sun Jan 1, 2012 10:31 am

I was surprised by Meyers Leonard. He actually moved very well. Expected to see someone who didn't look so fluid, but I was impressed. Looks like a basketball player...not a tall guy playing basketball.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#53 » by ManualRam » Sun Jan 1, 2012 4:53 pm

peachbucket wrote:
ManualRam wrote:
peachbucket wrote:
Slightly bigger and more athletic Tim Duncan.

you understand what you're saying dont you?

TD at the same stage was light yrs ahead of leonard. first of all, he was able to hold his position both in the post and when rebounding. 2nd, TD was an incredible rebounder in college. he had an underrated combination of strength and fluidity that meyers doesnt have. meyers gets his boards because of his size, massive wingspan and hops, not because he has a nose for the ball or was a master of positioning like duncan. duncan had the ability to anticipate and had better reflexes (on both ends of the floor) which is a huge difference b/t he and meyers.

i mean, if you strip duncan's game down to its bare essentials then yeah, maybe there is some similarity, but what made TD so awesome was how great he was in all those areas. he was very good in those areas early on in his development as well.
then there's the whole discussion about intangibles where TD was king...

the comparison is a big stretch and i think you know that.


I understand exactly what I'm saying but let me clarify for you....The question was what NBA player is a good comparison for Meyers Leonard. Obviously, I'm not comparing Leonard now to Duncan in his prime or even when he was drafted (which was his senior year). I'm actually talking about his skill set and what his POTENTIAL may be going forward based on that skill set. For me, Duncan is the best NBA comparison. Both are 7 footers with freakish length, are athletic, have great touch with a midrange game, great hands, are terrific passers, and have a high basketball iq. Again, I'm not saying Leonard will be one of the greatest players of his generation....but I am saying that I believe he has that 'type' of raw talent and will have a chance if he maximizes his potential.

If you want to compare them at the same stage of development I would say that the biggest difference is that Duncan had better lower body strength which allowed him to hold his position better...that should be a fairly quick and easy fix with some NBA level strength development.
And by the way, here are Duncan's stats from his sophmore year at Wake...which compare quite favorably with Leonard this year...so the discrepancy at the same stage of development is not nearly as great as you state

MPG FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
36.5 6.5 11.0 .591 0.1 0.2 .429 3.7 5.0 .742 12.5 2.1 0.4 4.2 2.8 2.4 16.8


just because you see leonard do something once or twice in a span of a number of games does not make it a part of his regular arsenal, skill set or considered a strength in his game. meyers has only shown flashes, duncan at the same stage was a master.

no, those stats dont compare favorably. there is a pretty big gap there.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#54 » by 15shuttle » Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:14 pm

For what its worth, Drummond has played in 5 games since he had his mask removed (after he broke his nose) and is averaging 14.4 and 7.8. Its clear that the mask affected him a lot.

Most of his points have come on alley oops with about 2 short jumpers a game. His release is really low so he can't shoot over people but has been doing a decent job of creating space. I hope he overhauls his shot.

Hes definitely showing much more consistent flashes. 2 games ago he had 3 steals which he took coast to coast which I can't recall seeing from someone so huge.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#55 » by peachbucket » Sun Jan 1, 2012 8:44 pm

ManualRam wrote:just because you see leonard do something once or twice in a span of a number of games does not make it a part of his regular arsenal, skill set or considered a strength in his game. meyers has only shown flashes, duncan at the same stage was a master.

no, those stats dont compare favorably. there is a pretty big gap there.


What part of my description of Meyers skill set that I mention above do you consider to be an exaggeration or not a strength of his game because of sample size? Length, athleticism, touch, hands, passing or basketball iq? These are traits that I recognized in his game the first 10 minutes I ever saw him play, let alone the near dozen games that I have watched him since that he has continued to show these over and over.

Also, which stats don't compare favorably? I hope your adjusting for the 7.2 extra minutes per game that Duncan averaged...Duncans only distinct edge is rebounding (about 2 rebounds/40 minutes) and shot blocking where Duncan is a block per 40 minutes higher. Again, I think this discrepancy is mostly due to lack of lower body strength which Duncan already possessed as a sophomore...but Duncan also wasn't still growing (literally) when he came to wake. Anyway, for me it doesn't take too much imagination to imagine Leonard with an additional 20 lbs of muscle (that I think we can both agree is a fairly trivial exercise considering his frame) and increased lower body strength and the impact that it will have on his game...

Also, the similarity between the two goes beyond their physical attributes. It think they are both highly intelligent and have a very similar demeanor on the court.

I stand by the comparison, if you have a better one I would like to hear it.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#56 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jan 1, 2012 10:28 pm

Sorry, Leonard and TD is a terrible comparison. He's like TD except he's skinny and is a sub average post thread. Which is like saying Harrison Barnes is like Paul Pierce without the ballhandling or passing ability. If the comparison relies on removing such major aspects of their skillset as Duncan's size and post moves and Pierce's ballhandling and passing, there's probably at least 20 or 30 players more similar

If you draft Leonard you're hoping he can be your Chandler/Noah, maybe Nene, IMO
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#57 » by princeofpalace » Sun Jan 1, 2012 10:37 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:Sorry, Leonard and TD is a terrible comparison. He's like TD except he's skinny and is a sub average post thread. Which is like saying Harrison Barnes is like Paul Pierce without the ballhandling or passing ability. If the comparison relies on removing such major aspects of their skillset as Duncan's size and post moves and Pierce's ballhandling and passing, there's probably at least 20 or 30 players more similar

If you draft Leonard you're hoping he can be your Chandler/Noah, maybe Nene, IMO


These comparisons are just as bad given that neither Chander nor Noah are very skilled offensive players and Leonard is.

I see more of an athletic Roy Hibbert than Chandler/Noah or TD.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#58 » by ManualRam » Sun Jan 1, 2012 11:47 pm

peachbucket wrote:
ManualRam wrote:just because you see leonard do something once or twice in a span of a number of games does not make it a part of his regular arsenal, skill set or considered a strength in his game. meyers has only shown flashes, duncan at the same stage was a master.

no, those stats dont compare favorably. there is a pretty big gap there.


What part of my description of Meyers skill set that I mention above do you consider to be an exaggeration or not a strength of his game because of sample size? Length, athleticism, touch, hands, passing or basketball iq? These are traits that I recognized in his game the first 10 minutes I ever saw him play, let alone the near dozen games that I have watched him since that he has continued to show these over and over.

Also, which stats don't compare favorably? I hope your adjusting for the 7.2 extra minutes per game that Duncan averaged...Duncans only distinct edge is rebounding (about 2 rebounds/40 minutes) and shot blocking where Duncan is a block per 40 minutes higher. Again, I think this discrepancy is mostly due to lack of lower body strength which Duncan already possessed as a sophomore...but Duncan also wasn't still growing (literally) when he came to wake. Anyway, for me it doesn't take too much imagination to imagine Leonard with an additional 20 lbs of muscle (that I think we can both agree is a fairly trivial exercise considering his frame) and increased lower body strength and the impact that it will have on his game...

Also, the similarity between the two goes beyond their physical attributes. It think they are both highly intelligent and have a very similar demeanor on the court.

I stand by the comparison, if you have a better one I would like to hear it.


There are gradations to every skill level. Its not about if youve seen this player do this or that, its about how proficient they are in that area. For example, just because leonard flashes an ability to turn and shoot over his right shoulder does not mean he is proficient at it. Just because hes shown an ability to pass out of the post does not make his the same level of passer than TD was at the stage.

Like as has already been said in this thread, if youre just comparing physical characteristics, there're plenty of guys who have fit TDs description. Athletically i dont think theyre similar. Meyers is springier, less fluid and more of a gatherer than TD. What i mean by gatherer is that when he catches the ball or before he explodes, he has to power up before he explodes, which allows that extra second for the defense to recover. TD was much less reliant on his jumping ability, he kept the ball high (which meyers struggles to do) and had numerous quick releases around the rim.

Although he can make plays out of the post and flashes some heady play, he also shows his lack of experience in the post. like in yesterday's game, how to counter getting fronted in the post (like walking his man up the lane or holding his position and waiting for the ball reversal so his teammates can either high/low pass or attack the weakside). I mentioned another example earlier, the weakside doubles off the fronted post would not be as effective if he just kept the ball high and hit the weakside. Instead, he'd catch the ball, bring it down to power up and subsequently got stripped or effectively doubled by the help defender. Although he is a good decision maker, he's not a quick decision maker like TD was, which goes back to my original point of gradations of skill.

I could go on but i wont. As for the stats, i dont think theyre comparable. Yes TD played more minutes, but meyers could play as many minutes if he was as good as TD at the same stage. Its not like the illini arent reliant on meyers and its not like they have a competent back up C who's deserving of minutes. Meyers currently doesnt have the stamina, ability to play mistake free ball or defensive awareness to avoid foul trouble, to play that many minutes. The fact that TD was able to play that many minutes, while being the dominant paint/rim protector that he was, is a testament to his defensive awareness, ability and intelligence...which happens to be another huge difference b/t the 2.

As for the comparison, a springier pau works for me as does the more athletic roy hibbert comparison. Meyers is tough to compare, i just dont see the TD comparison unless like i said in a previous post, if you strip TD's game down to its bare essentials with no regard to the level (or grade) of skill.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#59 » by peachbucket » Mon Jan 2, 2012 12:49 am

ManualRam wrote:
peachbucket wrote:
ManualRam wrote:just because you see leonard do something once or twice in a span of a number of games does not make it a part of his regular arsenal, skill set or considered a strength in his game. meyers has only shown flashes, duncan at the same stage was a master.

no, those stats dont compare favorably. there is a pretty big gap there.


What part of my description of Meyers skill set that I mention above do you consider to be an exaggeration or not a strength of his game because of sample size? Length, athleticism, touch, hands, passing or basketball iq? These are traits that I recognized in his game the first 10 minutes I ever saw him play, let alone the near dozen games that I have watched him since that he has continued to show these over and over.

Also, which stats don't compare favorably? I hope your adjusting for the 7.2 extra minutes per game that Duncan averaged...Duncans only distinct edge is rebounding (about 2 rebounds/40 minutes) and shot blocking where Duncan is a block per 40 minutes higher. Again, I think this discrepancy is mostly due to lack of lower body strength which Duncan already possessed as a sophomore...but Duncan also wasn't still growing (literally) when he came to wake. Anyway, for me it doesn't take too much imagination to imagine Leonard with an additional 20 lbs of muscle (that I think we can both agree is a fairly trivial exercise considering his frame) and increased lower body strength and the impact that it will have on his game...

Also, the similarity between the two goes beyond their physical attributes. It think they are both highly intelligent and have a very similar demeanor on the court.

I stand by the comparison, if you have a better one I would like to hear it.


There are gradations to every skill level. Its not about if youve seen this player do this or that, its about how proficient they are in that area. For example, just because leonard flashes an ability to turn and shoot over his right shoulder does not mean he is proficient at it. Just because hes shown an ability to pass out of the post does not make his the same level of passer than TD was at the stage.

Like as has already been said in this thread, if youre just comparing physical characteristics, there're plenty of guys who have fit TDs description. Athletically i dont think theyre similar. Meyers is springier, less fluid and more of a gatherer than TD. What i mean by gatherer is that when he catches the ball or before he explodes, he has to power up before he explodes, which allows that extra second for the defense to recover. TD was much less reliant on his jumping ability, he kept the ball high (which meyers struggles to do) and had numerous quick releases around the rim.

Although he can make plays out of the post and flashes some heady play, he also shows his lack of experience in the post. like in yesterday's game, how to counter getting fronted in the post (like walking his man up the lane or holding his position and waiting for the ball reversal so his teammates can either high/low pass or attack the weakside). I mentioned another example earlier, the weakside doubles off the fronted post would not be as effective if he just kept the ball high and hit the weakside. Instead, he'd catch the ball, bring it down to power up and subsequently got stripped or effectively doubled by the help defender. Although he is a good decision maker, he's not a quick decision maker like TD was, which goes back to my original point of gradations of skill.

I could go on but i wont. As for the stats, i dont think theyre comparable. Yes TD played more minutes, but meyers could play as many minutes if he was as good as TD at the same stage. Its not like the illini arent reliant on meyers and its not like they have a competent back up C who's deserving of minutes. Meyers currently doesnt have the stamina, ability to play mistake free ball or defensive awareness to avoid foul trouble, to play that many minutes. The fact that TD was able to play that many minutes, while being the dominant paint/rim protector that he was, is a testament to his defensive awareness, ability and intelligence...which happens to be another huge difference b/t the 2.

As for the comparison, a springier pau works for me as does the more athletic roy hibbert comparison. Meyers is tough to compare, i just dont see the TD comparison unless like i said in a previous post, if you strip TD's game down to its bare essentials with no regard to the level (or grade) of skill.


Are you sure that you have a clear picture of what Tim Duncan was as a sophmore was at Wake Forest? Because if you do, then kudos because you have a better memory than me. Something tells me though, that you are comparing Leonard to the Tim Duncan that went number one in the draft or the Tim Duncan that will be a first ballot hall of famer and arguably the best power forward of all time.

Anyway, I completely disagree with the notion that 'if Leonard could play 37 minutes a game that he would'..how many top players in college play 37 minutes a game these days? Leonard is only averaging 2.5 fouls a game so foul trouble really haas not been an issue this year. Secondly, if you watch his games, you realize how badly he is being misused and just how bad Illinois playmakers are (the guys that he relies on to give him the ball). Bob Knight kept pointing this out during the UNLV game and I happen to agree with him 100%. Players situations and how they are being utilized will impact their production and are very significant in their evaluations for the next level.

I have no problem with the Pau Gasol comparision....I actually see Gasol and Duncan as somewhat similar players (with Duncan having a better faceup game and just being tougher and more consistent). And of course I'm stripping these players down to their raw skill sets...that is what you have to do when projecting college prospects. I think Kevin Garnett is the best NBA comp for Anthony Davis....that doesn't mean that Anthony Davis is as good as Kevin Garnett or that even Kevin Garnett was as good as Kevin Garnett when he was 19 years old. That's what evaluating prospects is....its finding the raw skill set that you think can translate to a higher level through learning and refinement.

Another comp that I would put out there is a shorter more athletic Yao Ming. I think we can all agree on the fact that his comp is very tough because very few players historically have had his level of size and skillset and because he is improving so rapidly.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#60 » by MalonesElbows » Mon Jan 2, 2012 8:39 pm

Are there any official measurements on Leonard's wingspan?
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#61 » by ManualRam » Mon Jan 2, 2012 9:39 pm

cant find any official measurements (figured team usa would have some), but my guess is a 7'4-5 wingspan

first decent mix of meyers illini footage.
its more than just dunks and blocks.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LWNpaPEw6o[/youtube]
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#62 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 2, 2012 10:29 pm

I'll be brutally honest even if this makes me look foolish (moreso than usual). I know Leonard's got tremendous pure talent and skills, but there's just something intangible about him - that I can't define - that rubs me the wrong way about him and makes me think he's not going to be a winning NBA player. He just seems to be too much of a preppie type kid. Maybe I'm being racist, but that's my gut feeling about the kid.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#63 » by ManualRam » Mon Jan 2, 2012 10:40 pm

Um ok. How will his preppiness affect his game or his team?
On the court he's smart and is an unselfish, willing passer.
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#64 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jan 3, 2012 8:35 am

Honestly if he wasn't white I think his hype/talk would be top 5 or 6 in this class if not higher. He's otherwise exactly the type of prospect that if anything gets overrated, let alone underrated. He's extremely Ford and Bilas workouts and wingspan friendly and those guys seem to do very well for right reasons or wrong (in this case, likely right)

I don't think this lasts long. With the history of athletic, legit 7 footers who can block shots and rebound, let alone ones who can do things offensively, I see little reason with the history of how these scouting consensi go that a player with his package wouldn't get jacked up in hype as much as anyone but Davis and Drummond. It might end up being "the big 3" with Davis, Drummond and Leonard. All athletic big men with anchor defensive potential which is what drafting GMs lose their sh*t over more often than not far than guys like PJIII (defensive enigma issues), Lamb and Sullinger (bound to be underrated due to skill over freakish athleticism), Barnes and MKG (not really dynamic offensively)
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Re: 2012 Draft - Rank the PF/C Prospects 

Post#65 » by boogie-reke » Tue Jan 3, 2012 8:41 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:Honestly if he wasn't white I think his hype/talk would be top 5 or 6 in this class if not higher.
“Its my 2nd year of losing and Im not trying to get used to this.I didnt want to get use to it last year.I had enough of it. Its time to turn it around”
-DeMarcus Cousins

“Rookie or not- Im not letting anybody relax"
-Thomas Robinson

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