How bad is the Bennett pick?

[HornetJail]

The pick completely surprised me. we'll see how he pans out...but seems like Brandon Bass to me.

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

[EricAnderson]

The pick completely surprised me. we'll see how he pans out...but seems like Brandon Bass to me.

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

So does every other player who was in that draft

[No-Man]

The Cavs could have,

Irving-Livingston-Canaan
Oladipo-Ellington-Karasev
Barnes-Crowder-Gee
Smith-Clark-Draymond Green
Valanciunas-Varejao-Ezeli
+Abrines rights in Spain

Look at what they have.

[HornetJail]

The pick completely surprised me. we'll see how he pans out...but seems like Brandon Bass to me.

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

[EricAnderson]

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

None of those players mentioned upside is star to me at all..a star to me is a guy you can build around not a player who may make an all star team once in his career which is best case sceanrio for these guys..Its a draft full of role players..

[HornetJail]

I didn't say any of them are going to be stars, but at least those guys have a significant chance of being average starters. I don't even think Bennett is going to be a starter in the league. That's how bad the pick is.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

I'm struggling to understand how Zeller has David Lee upside while Bennett upside is a poor man's Ilyasova.

[Roger Murdock]

All I know is that hindsight GMs suck if they are taking Barnes at 4 in that draft. Even ignoring that Waiters is better, there are 4 other guys who would be much smarter picks as well.

[gordito]

All I know is that hindsight GMs suck if they are taking Barnes at 4 in that draft. Even ignoring that Waiters is better, there are 4 other guys who would be much smarter picks as well.

Aside from Drummond, who else was a REALISTIC alternative (for the love of God, please do not say Lillard, or anyone who ended up being drafted in the teens)? Not to mention, people saying Barnes (or Drummond for that matter) aren't really "hindsight GMs" either. Waiters came out of nowhere on the days leading up to the draft, and most people expected Barnes as the safe pick or Drummond as the high risk high reward pick.

While you may think Waiters is a better player, I think you are delusional if you think that a) there are 4 other guys who would have been much smarter picks than Barnes and b) Cavs (not you, the CAVS) would still take him over Barnes if they had a re-do right now.

I'm not arguing with you on who the Cavs should have picked (because I think it's still up in the air, even though I prefer Barnes due to fit), but I don't think you need to rag on Barnes just to make your point. 4 guys (5 including Waiters)??

[gordito]

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

I'm struggling to understand how Zeller has David Lee upside while Bennett upside is a poor man's Ilyasova.

For once I agree with you. Biz is on something.

[Blue_and_Whte]

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

None of those players mentioned upside is star to me at all..a star to me is a guy you can build around not a player who may make an all star team once in his career which is best case sceanrio for these guys..Its a draft full of role players..

There's always at least a couple players out of each draft that turn out to be more than just role players. History doest support your claim.

In this draft (and because I'm a little biased) Dipo is one of the guys thats has that potential and I think CJ McCullom is the other. I'm not guaranteeing anything or saying they're guys you build a franchise around but they seem like they've got a good head on their shoulders, both have GREAT work ethic, and on top of that they're pretty good thus have the most potential to be best players out of this draft imo.

Staying on topic, Bennett's best case is LJ worst case is Brandon Bass. I think at the very least he become a serviceable player. I dont think you can determine if the pick was bad or not quite yet. Right NOW it looks like they should've picked Dipo both in terms of need and BPA, but we'll see. I'm obviously glad they didn't.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

I'm struggling to understand how Zeller has David Lee upside while Bennett upside is a poor man's Ilyasova.

For once I agree with you. Biz is on something.

Out of curiosity, why exactly do you think someone is delusional for thinking the cavs front office would still take Waiters over Barnes in a re-draft?

[gordito]

I'm struggling to understand how Zeller has David Lee upside while Bennett upside is a poor man's Ilyasova.

For once I agree with you. Biz is on something.

Out of curiosity, why exactly do you think someone is delusional for thinking the cavs front office would still take Waiters over Barnes in a re-draft?

Mainly because I think Waiters' value to the Cavs has declined a bit, while Barnes' value league-wide has increased substantially. A couple of reasons why I think it's clear as day:

1. Barnes is a much better fit on this current roster.

2. Mike Brown stresses defense. Barnes excels in defense and has a high ceiling defensively. Waiters struggles in defense and is undersized.

3. Post-2012 draft it was said Byron Scott was the one who rallied for the Waiters pick. Post-2012 season Byron Scott was fired.

4. 2 1/2 months ago, Barnes had a coming out party in the playoffs as the #2 option on a team that nearly upset the Spurs. 1 month ago, Waiters shot 29% in his first three Summer League games (after an off-season during which many people had been raving about him living in the gym).

5. According to reports, Cavs attempted to trade #1 pick / #19 pick for Aldridge. A few weeks later, they attempted to trade # 1 pick / Waiters / Thompson for Kevin Love. If true, is Kevin Love THAT much better than Aldridge? Or were there other factors involved?

This is not me saying why Barnes is better and/or why the Cavs should have picked Barnes. It's just me answering your question on why I think current Cavs management would take Barnes over Waiters in a redo without blinking. The "delusional" comment was more for the "oh, there's 4 other people I would take instead of Barnes" argument, although I don't think anyone could provide any valid reasons why they think the Cavs would still take Waiters over Barnes.

[Ziggy Stardust]

For once I agree with you. Biz is on something.

Out of curiosity, why exactly do you think someone is delusional for thinking the cavs front office would still take Waiters over Barnes in a re-draft?

Mainly because I think Waiters' value to the Cavs has declined a bit, while Barnes' value league-wide has increased substantially. A couple of reasons why I think it's clear as day:

1. Barnes is a much better fit on this current roster.

2. Mike Brown stresses defense. Barnes excels in defense and has a high ceiling defensively. Waiters struggles in defense and is undersized.

3. Post-2012 draft it was said Byron Scott was the one who rallied for the Waiters pick. Post-2012 season Byron Scott was fired.

4. 2 1/2 months ago, Barnes had a coming out party in the playoffs as the #2 option on a team that nearly upset the Spurs. 1 month ago, Waiters shot 29% in his first three Summer League games (after an off-season during which many people had been raving about him living in the gym).

5. According to reports, Cavs attempted to trade #1 pick / #19 pick for Aldridge. A few weeks later, they attempted to trade # 1 pick / Waiters / Thompson for Kevin Love. If true, is Kevin Love THAT much better than Aldridge? Or were there other factors involved?

This is not me saying why Barnes is better and/or why the Cavs should have picked Barnes. It's just me answering your question on why I think current Cavs management would take Barnes over Waiters in a redo without blinking. The "delusional" comment was more for the "oh, there's 4 other people I would take instead of Barnes" argument, although I don't think anyone could provide any valid reasons why they think the Cavs would still take Waiters over Barnes.

I don't think any of those arguments individually or collectively make it "clear as day." I mean you're grasping at things like summer league stats, rumored trades, and competition that Waiters didn't even have a chance to play in (playoffs). I think your argument is biased and flawed from the very first point because you really have no idea what importance the cavs put on Waiters skills, ability, and role versus what they would put on Barnes. The cavs knew what they were potentially getting drafting Waiters, and they still choose to take him over Barnes. You are just projecting what YOU think is the best fit.

I could get into a long winded argument discussing why I would take Waiters over Barnes, but I won't. I can't totally speak for the cavs but all I can say is that just over a year ago the cavs decided to take Waiters over Barnes (knowing their roles and fit) and Waiters probably had the better rookie season. I don't see any reason to overthink it, I can say its "clear as day" that the Cavs would take Drummond over Waiters in a redraft.

[gordito]

Out of curiosity, why exactly do you think someone is delusional for thinking the cavs front office would still take Waiters over Barnes in a re-draft?

Mainly because I think Waiters' value to the Cavs has declined a bit, while Barnes' value league-wide has increased substantially. A couple of reasons why I think it's clear as day:

1. Barnes is a much better fit on this current roster.

2. Mike Brown stresses defense. Barnes excels in defense and has a high ceiling defensively. Waiters struggles in defense and is undersized.

3. Post-2012 draft it was said Byron Scott was the one who rallied for the Waiters pick. Post-2012 season Byron Scott was fired.

4. 2 1/2 months ago, Barnes had a coming out party in the playoffs as the #2 option on a team that nearly upset the Spurs. 1 month ago, Waiters shot 29% in his first three Summer League games (after an off-season during which many people had been raving about him living in the gym).

5. According to reports, Cavs attempted to trade #1 pick / #19 pick for Aldridge. A few weeks later, they attempted to trade # 1 pick / Waiters / Thompson for Kevin Love. If true, is Kevin Love THAT much better than Aldridge? Or were there other factors involved?

This is not me saying why Barnes is better and/or why the Cavs should have picked Barnes. It's just me answering your question on why I think current Cavs management would take Barnes over Waiters in a redo without blinking. The "delusional" comment was more for the "oh, there's 4 other people I would take instead of Barnes" argument, although I don't think anyone could provide any valid reasons why they think the Cavs would still take Waiters over Barnes.

I don't think any of those arguments individually or collectively make it "clear as day." I mean you're grasping at things like summer league stats, rumored trades, and competition that Waiters didn't even have a chance to play in (playoffs). I think your argument is biased and flawed from the very first point because you really have no idea what importance the cavs put on Waiters skills, ability, and role versus what they would put on Barnes. The cavs knew what they were potentially getting drafting Waiters, and they still choose to take him over Barnes. You are just projecting what YOU think is the best fit.

I could get into a long winded argument discussing why I would take Waiters over Barnes, but I won't. I can't totally speak for the cavs but all I can say is that just over a year ago the cavs decided to take Waiters over Barnes (knowing their roles and fit) and Waiters probably had the better rookie season. I don't see any reason to overthink it, I can say its "clear as day" that the Cavs would take Drummond over Waiters in a redraft.

Fair enough.

Although, Barnes regular season + playoffs >>> Waiters regular season. There's not much overthinking involved when making that proclamation. Are we just supposed to ignore the playoffs (i.e. the one time when Barnes was given the same opportunity as Waiters, except against MUCH stronger competition)?

So pretty much, all that's left (as why you think they would do it again) is the fact that the Cavs drafted Waiters before Barnes last season. Which I'm pretty sure you don't need me to tell you that that is by far the most flawed reason in this whole discussion.

...and Waiters' off-season struggles aren't just confined to summer league either. Here's an excerpt from Team USA camp

"The USA Basketball brain trust likely was thinking the same thing I was at one point during Thursday night’s showcase: Why is Dion Waiters here? He did nothing to shake his reputation of being a chucker, getting up 10 shots in just 15 minutes, while making only two. He also committed some silly fouls defensively, and while he’s obviously still young and shooting is at a premium in international play, he’ll need to do a lot better in the future than he showed in this one to be seriously considered for the squad."

Meanwhile, Barnes shined there as well.

I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way and become confrontational. The only point I'm trying to make here is that Barnes value is much higher than Waiters right now, and that's why I think they would easily take him in a redo. Whether they regret the Waiters pick or not is a different story. I just don't think they take him over Barnes again.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Mainly because I think Waiters' value to the Cavs has declined a bit, while Barnes' value league-wide has increased substantially. A couple of reasons why I think it's clear as day:

1. Barnes is a much better fit on this current roster.

2. Mike Brown stresses defense. Barnes excels in defense and has a high ceiling defensively. Waiters struggles in defense and is undersized.

3. Post-2012 draft it was said Byron Scott was the one who rallied for the Waiters pick. Post-2012 season Byron Scott was fired.

4. 2 1/2 months ago, Barnes had a coming out party in the playoffs as the #2 option on a team that nearly upset the Spurs. 1 month ago, Waiters shot 29% in his first three Summer League games (after an off-season during which many people had been raving about him living in the gym).

5. According to reports, Cavs attempted to trade #1 pick / #19 pick for Aldridge. A few weeks later, they attempted to trade # 1 pick / Waiters / Thompson for Kevin Love. If true, is Kevin Love THAT much better than Aldridge? Or were there other factors involved?

This is not me saying why Barnes is better and/or why the Cavs should have picked Barnes. It's just me answering your question on why I think current Cavs management would take Barnes over Waiters in a redo without blinking. The "delusional" comment was more for the "oh, there's 4 other people I would take instead of Barnes" argument, although I don't think anyone could provide any valid reasons why they think the Cavs would still take Waiters over Barnes.

I don't think any of those arguments individually or collectively make it "clear as day." I mean you're grasping at things like summer league stats, rumored trades, and competition that Waiters didn't even have a chance to play in (playoffs). I think your argument is biased and flawed from the very first point because you really have no idea what importance the cavs put on Waiters skills, ability, and role versus what they would put on Barnes. The cavs knew what they were potentially getting drafting Waiters, and they still choose to take him over Barnes. You are just projecting what YOU think is the best fit.

I could get into a long winded argument discussing why I would take Waiters over Barnes, but I won't. I can't totally speak for the cavs but all I can say is that just over a year ago the cavs decided to take Waiters over Barnes (knowing their roles and fit) and Waiters probably had the better rookie season. I don't see any reason to overthink it, I can say its "clear as day" that the Cavs would take Drummond over Waiters in a redraft.

Fair enough.

Although, Barnes regular season + playoffs >>> Waiters regular season. There's not much overthinking involved when making that proclamation. Are we just supposed to ignore the playoffs (i.e. the one time when Barnes was given the same opportunity as Waiters, except against MUCH stronger competition)?

So pretty much, all that's left (as why you think they would do it again) is the fact that the Cavs drafted Waiters before Barnes last season. Which I'm pretty sure you don't need me to tell you that that is by far the most flawed reason in this whole discussion.

...and Waiters' off-season struggles aren't just confined to summer league either. Here's an excerpt from Team USA camp

"The USA Basketball brain trust likely was thinking the same thing I was at one point during Thursday night’s showcase: Why is Dion Waiters here? He did nothing to shake his reputation of being a chucker, getting up 10 shots in just 15 minutes, while making only two. He also committed some silly fouls defensively, and while he’s obviously still young and shooting is at a premium in international play, he’ll need to do a lot better in the future than he showed in this one to be seriously considered for the squad."

Meanwhile, Barnes shined there as well.

I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way and become confrontational. The only point I'm trying to make here is that Barnes value is much higher than Waiters right now, and that's why I think they would easily take him in a redo. Whether they regret the Waiters pick or not is a different story. I just don't think they take him over Barnes again.

Well ok lol. This isn't going to go anywhere.

Regarding the team USA scrimmage, yes he did shoot poorly (like Lilliard, Kemba, George) but apparently he was impressing in practice and even won the starting spot.

[Peja Stojakovic]

I think he'll be better and more well-rounded than Brandon Bass, but I agree that he screams "life-long role player."

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

Credit to this dude, he named basically every single decent player in the draft, awesome

[HornetJail]

So does every other player who was in that draft

Zeller has David Lee upside, Noel has crazy upside if he's healthy, Oladipo could be a poor man's Wade, Burke, Bazz, Olynyk, Adams, and McCollum all have nice upside. Bennett's upside is like poor man's Ilyasova mixed with Draymond Green or something. I said before the draft that I wouldn't even waste a lottery pick on him and I was really worried my team would take him at #4. I don't know why Cleveland did this when they already drafted a pretty decent guy at the same position two drafts ago.

Credit to this dude, he named basically every single decent player in the draft, awesome

In the lottery anyway, yeah. no way of knowing Giannis and Gobert would blow up since they were considered late 1sts. I'd also predicted MCW being a total bum elsewhere, McLemore and Len being career disappointments as well. I hated everyone in that draft though lol. I wanted to trade down or out so badly.

But I did miss Porter who is solid. Zeller pretty much is the opposite of David Lee, but he's a nice player. idk what that Bennett comparison is but he managed to disappoint me despite expecting nothing at all.

[azcatz11]

It was cool reading this thread - can't believe it's been more than 5 years already. Everyone is always wrong on certain prospects - I just found the analysis interesting looking back...like a snapshot in time.

Props to Biz!