RealGM

I was reading some threads on General Basketball Realgm, and somebody brought up Russel Westbrook's college performance when talking about the lack of talent that Wiggins seem to be showing.

I am curious as to how do the more experienced scouts out there, determine if a players fits the same situation that Russel face that may have lowered his true value in college?

Maybe I'm reading your question wrong, but Westbrook dramatically improved his draft stock at UCLA. He wasn't a highly rated recruit, and he ended up being the 4th player in the draft. He wasn't a great college player, but he improved a lot as a sophomore, and his talent was obvious.

i'm not exactly sure what the hell you're asking. are you one of those wiggins' apologists still trying to blame the KU system for his showing this season?

he and westbrook were in totally different situations as freshmen. westbrook was playing behind collison. collison eventually got hurt the following yr and westbrook looked great filling in for him. the tools were evident, but he played with great intensity and force on both ends. that's what scouts fell in love with.

wiggins isn't showing a "lack of talent." his talent is clear as day to see, but what people are seeing is that he lacks the skill, strength and tenacity to impose himself on the opposing team.

It's hard to learn a ton from the Westbrook situation, since his combination of athleticism, ballhandling and size is pretty much the best in the history of the PG position, in addition to having maniac intensity/competitiveness. Most of the time players with RWB's other flaws deserve to be docked for it, but when dealing with a player with transcendent strengths, it changes the situation. It's sort of like asking how to prepare next time UConn Andre Drummond comes along. Well another UConn Drummond is too rare to be here for a while.

I don't think there is any one way to do it. Nobody would have predicted Russel Westbrook to be as good as he is now. The one thing NBA personnel look at is upside and athleticism. Those things always tantalize NBA types because it is something that is measurable. I can vividly remember when Steven Hunter came out early in the combine, and people thought he would blossom into what Dwight Howard is now. He could run like gazelle, was 7'0", and was only 19. Little did they know, he couldn't think, couldn't play.

A lot of new age people like to use statistics and hold them up as a way to justify xyz, while a lot of other old time guys use what they know. It is more of an art than science. I don't yet think anyone has mastered an approach to both. If anyone has been getting it right it's probably the San Antonio guys who seem to always get players that fit their system.

People have put outlandish expectations on Andrew Wiggins. There was no way he could meet those. If you watched something other than hoopsmixtape, it was clear his shot was not all there, his ball handling was not that good, and he created few opportunities for other players. If you remove the Lebron comparisons he is actually a very good value at the top of the draft. Again, his age (he reclassified to enter college a year early) and athleticism will tantalize a lot of people. The streets are littered with guys who had all the talent in the world, but how do they handle the fame and the business that goes along with it. There are some guys that work at it, and there are some guys that do not. The jury is out on Wiggins. I don't know if he is the type to put the shades on, drop the top on the Coupe and call it day. Or is he in the gym every chance he gets trying to become great. These days teams are spending even more resources determining what type of player they are getting beyond the stats.

Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

BBall Loyalty wrote:Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

there's freak athleticism and then there's freak athleticism with the ability to impose oneself on the opposition. i think they have to go hand in hand in order for that freak athleticism to translate to something special.

BBall Loyalty wrote:Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

DeRozan is far from a great athlete. His vertical is decent and he has great body control, but his quickness is definitely lacking (first-step and laterally).

I just don't think Wiggins is as physically gifted as Westbrook and Drummond. Being skinny is a major difference compared to those guys to start, before considering he looks to be less explosive/athletic than them period.

Where Wiggins looked most freakishly athletic was jumping the highest off 2 feet when he had time to set himself. Which is high on the list of most unapplicable athletic feats in the game. In volleyball it'd be incredibly useful. It's also why Chase Budinger's good athleticism in a vacuum brings nearly no value to his basketball game

westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded, and kevin love likes to think he "discovered" him. he went to howland and told him he should play westbrook more because he was tearing it up at SAC(UCLA's men's gym).

howland did, and essentially the rest was history. anyone who has followed westbrook will tell you westy has improved his game every single year. so from his senior year as an unknown 3*/4* > uneventful frosh > super soph > #4 draft > better > better > better > elite >. i cannot think of any player who has had such a meteoric rise in such a short span of time.

westy has elite athleticism, UNQUENCHABLE DESIRE, weight room rat, gym rat, absolute fearlessness at the rim, plays every game like it's life and death. basically westbrook is not scared of anyone and it's his desire that makes him shine when his teammates fall apart in big games. 70% of what makes westy is mental.

in other words, you can't determine the next westbrook - you have to be lucky. wetsbrook has become a standard of measure, so "westbrook with a better offense" is used too often for guys like lavine,,,,,who turns chicken at the rim.

BBall Loyalty wrote:Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

What freak of nature athlecism has Wiggins showed? hes alot less athletic thne he was sold as or looked in his hs clips..

Yes he has a great second jump but i havent seen any jaw dropping athleticism wheter it be jumping high speed or explosion from him at all tbh

miltk wrote:westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded, and kevin love likes to think he "discovered" him. he went to howland and told him he should play westbrook more because he was tearing it up at SAC(UCLA's men's gym).

howland did, and essentially the rest was history. anyone who has followed westbrook will tell you westy has improved his game every single year. so from his senior year as an unknown 3*/4* > uneventful frosh > super soph > #4 draft > better > better > better > elite >. i cannot think of any player who has had such a meteoric rise in such a short span of time.

westy has elite athleticism, UNQUENCHABLE DESIRE, weight room rat, gym rat, absolute fearlessness at the rim, plays every game like it's life and death. basically westbrook is not scared of anyone and it's his desire that makes him shine when his teammates fall apart in big games. 70% of what makes westy is mental.

in other words, you can't determine the next westbrook - you have to be lucky. wetsbrook has become a standard of measure, so "westbrook with a better offense" is used too often for guys like lavine,,,,,who turns chicken at the rim.

EricAnderson wrote:

BBall Loyalty wrote:Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

What freak of nature athlecism has Wiggins showed? hes alot less athletic thne he was sold as or looked in his hs clips..

Yes he has a great second jump but i havent seen any jaw dropping athleticism wheter it be jumping high speed or explosion from him at all tbh

Stay away from those Clips. They don't tell the full story. He hasn't lost any athleticism, it's just that in the college game his skills are not yet to the point he can utilize his gifts. Shabazz Muhmmad was the second coming of Kobe Bryant in high school. He would leak out and dunk uncontested. We see how well that worked out.

Wiggins was always going to struggle a bit because his skills did not match what was actually there. I am of the belief that Wiggins will be a better pro than a college player. If he learns how to move without the ball, and develops his footwork, he can be very dangerous. The NBA game allows for more isolation and one on one, where the college game they can zone him and force him to shoot form the outside. Which at this point isn't his strength.

Mlockhart wrote:

miltk wrote:westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded, and kevin love likes to think he "discovered" him. he went to howland and told him he should play westbrook more because he was tearing it up at SAC(UCLA's men's gym).

howland did, and essentially the rest was history. anyone who has followed westbrook will tell you westy has improved his game every single year. so from his senior year as an unknown 3*/4* > uneventful frosh > super soph > #4 draft > better > better > better > elite >. i cannot think of any player who has had such a meteoric rise in such a short span of time.

westy has elite athleticism, UNQUENCHABLE DESIRE, weight room rat, gym rat, absolute fearlessness at the rim, plays every game like it's life and death. basically westbrook is not scared of anyone and it's his desire that makes him shine when his teammates fall apart in big games. 70% of what makes westy is mental.

in other words, you can't determine the next westbrook - you have to be lucky. wetsbrook has become a standard of measure, so "westbrook with a better offense" is used too often for guys like lavine,,,,,who turns chicken at the rim.

EricAnderson wrote:

BBall Loyalty wrote:Drummond was crap too in college but when you have elite athleticism you can do anything. That's why people love Wiggins so much. When I say elite athleticism I'm not talking about being equal to great athletes like Iggy or DeRozan, i'm talking about freak of nature type stuff that only a few guys in the NBA have.

What freak of nature athlecism has Wiggins showed? hes alot less athletic thne he was sold as or looked in his hs clips..

Yes he has a great second jump but i havent seen any jaw dropping athleticism wheter it be jumping high speed or explosion from him at all tbh

Stay away from those Clips. They don't tell the full story. He hasn't lost any athleticism, it's just that in the college game his skills are not yet to the point he can utilize his gifts. Shabazz Muhmmad was the second coming of Kobe Bryant in high school. He would leak out and dunk uncontested. We see how well that worked out.

Wiggins was always going to struggle a bit because his skills did not match what was actually there. I am of the belief that Wiggins will be a better pro than a college player. If he learns how to move without the ball, and develops his footwork, he can be very dangerous. The NBA game allows for more isolation and one on one, where the college game they can zone him and force him to shoot form the outside. Which at this point isn't his strength.

Shoot is not his strength, but Wiggins has been much more efficient shooting than driving. His finishing rate is beyond horrible for a first round SF prospect.

miltk wrote:westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded

This is partially true. He went from 5'1'1'' as a junior to 6'3'' as a senior but he had tons of MVC and MWC scholarship offers a junior. I remember Creighton and Illinois St fanboards raving about him and hoping he wouldn't blow up, then he grew. Scout (the scouting service) found out about him and gave him the 4 star ranking and UCLA snatched him up.

reanimator wrote:

miltk wrote:westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded

This is partially true. He went from 5'1'1'' as a junior to 6'3'' as a senior but he had tons of MVC and MWC scholarship offers a junior. I remember Creighton and Illinois St fanboards raving about him and hoping he wouldn't blow up, then he grew. Scout (the scouting service) found out about him and gave him the 4 star ranking and UCLA snatched him up.

umm. i won't "dispute" it,,,but then where were the mvc/mwc offers in his senior year? colleges don't shy away from offers, no matter who is in the mix. and if a college has been on a player a longer time, that kind of loyalty by the school resonates with a player.

miltk wrote:

reanimator wrote:

miltk wrote:westy was a 3* in high school who barely made 4* before opting for UCLA. there were 3 offers of which UCLA was one.
after a nondescript frosh year that showed athleticism, there was still no one looking at westy. over the summer is when westbrook exploded

This is partially true. He went from 5'1'1'' as a junior to 6'3'' as a senior but he had tons of MVC and MWC scholarship offers a junior. I remember Creighton and Illinois St fanboards raving about him and hoping he wouldn't blow up, then he grew. Scout (the scouting service) found out about him and gave him the 4 star ranking and UCLA snatched him up.

umm. i won't "dispute" it,,,but then where were the mvc/mwc offers in his senior year? colleges don't shy away from offers, no matter who is in the mix. and if a college has been on a player a longer time, that kind of loyalty by the school resonates with a player.

He already had offers during his junior year. Kids blowing up during their senior year and spurring a team/coach that may have been at a lower level of basketball but recruiting them longer, it happens all the time.

Russell Westbrook situation is being an unknown with elite athleticism and playing hard and having splash moments on a stacked team and somebody taking a chance on you.

And you have to understand...

There are super duper obvious elite players in NCAA, like a KD and a Michael Beasley and a Greg Oden and a Carmelo Anthony...where a team expects them to play like they did in college

and then there is...Paul George and a Russell Westbrook...where a team hopes they can play like did in college.

Russell Westbrook worked on his jumper, added a pull up jumper, learned how to work the pick and roll and an excellent free throw shooter, but he still isn't the most efficient player.

What Westbrook does which makes him an elite guard, like what he did in college, is put tremendous amount of pressure on a team by pushing the ball in transition and he plays above average to elite defense and he plays with intensity.

Russ was just a crazy athlete that was really hunger.
i've never seen a guy with that kind of attitude before, he is just crazy.

Wiggins vert is 51' think about that for a second. Thats Amazing. Rose and Lebrons is mid 40s.

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GANGSTERDOG wrote:Wiggins vert is 51' think about that for a second. Thats Amazing. Rose and Lebrons is mid 40s.

Xbox Live/PSN : Gangsterdog

thought about it and it isn't true.