Denzel Valentine

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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#61 » by HotelVitale » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:26 pm

Slartibartfast wrote: I don't consider him to be a small-ball SF - he's got the beef and length to be a regular SF. It's PF where he'd be small and where he'd create the most havoc (much like Green and Diaw at the 5)... At the 4 he'd have obvious advantages against a lot of the 4s in the NBA (especially in transition) and I think he has the tools to minimize the extent of their damage on the other end (the frame to deny easy post position and box out, excellent rebounder) while providing good quickness in team D.


I was thinking about this last time I watched MSU and I can't quite see it. Small ball PFs need an athleticism advantage to make up for their lack of size, and 'heft' doesn't matter too much when you're not guarding ground-bound 5s. Seems like you're trying to make some stuff that worked for Draymond--strong base/trunk, skill--mean something for DV and I don't get that, partially because Draymond's an incredibly talented defender regardless of size and partially because DV's totally different.

I was thinking about Paul Millsap as a potential model, but he's significantly bigger and was a dominant big in college who developed supplementary perimeter skills. Hard for me to see how DV doesn't get killed by most NBA PFs on offense, and how he'd be dynamic enough with his quickness to cause constant havoc when he's on offense. (Also don't get what you mean by 'providing quickness' for team D, hard to see how his lateral speed is ever going to be a positive thing.)
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#62 » by ZGendron317 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:29 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:Draymond is not an accurate comparison for Denzel. Denzel doesn't even average a single blocked shot per game on the college level while Draymond has been averaging over a block per game in the NBA for the past two seasons. It's a lazy comparison because Draymond is hot. This always happens, college prospects are always compared to hot NBA players. Maybe he can develop into a Jared Dudley with a better feel for the game if his NBA 3 point shooting even gets him the opportunity to take the floor.


Draymond is 100% a great comparison for DV. Valentine doesn't have the blocks, but that's just one stat. Other than that they are extremely similar with the all around play, the triple doubles, not the most prolific scorer, but they both do pretty much everything (some scoring, assists, rebounds, energy on the court)


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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#63 » by HotelVitale » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:53 pm

ZGendron317 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Draymond is not an accurate comparison for Denzel. Denzel doesn't even average a single blocked shot per game on the college level while Draymond has been averaging over a block per game in the NBA for the past two seasons. It's a lazy comparison because Draymond is hot. This always happens, college prospects are always compared to hot NBA players. Maybe he can develop into a Jared Dudley with a better feel for the game if his NBA 3 point shooting even gets him the opportunity to take the floor.
Draymond is 100% a great comparison for DV. Valentine doesn't have the blocks, but that's just one stat. Other than that they are extremely similar with the all around play, the triple doubles, not the most prolific scorer, but they both do pretty much everything (some scoring, assists, rebounds, energy on the court)


For a very very basic comparison of skills it might work, but they're clearly very different players who won't have the same roles in the NBA. Draymond's a couple inches taller and 3.5 inches longer, and he's got quite a bit of muscle on him too. That's a big big difference. And Denzel scores mostly on spot-ups and catch-and-shoots that Draymond never did at MSU, and he's much more comfortable operating at full speed from the far perimeter with ball in his hands
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#64 » by SelfishPlayer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:14 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote:
SelfishPlayer wrote:Draymond is not an accurate comparison for Denzel. Denzel doesn't even average a single blocked shot per game on the college level while Draymond has been averaging over a block per game in the NBA for the past two seasons. It's a lazy comparison because Draymond is hot. This always happens, college prospects are always compared to hot NBA players. Maybe he can develop into a Jared Dudley with a better feel for the game if his NBA 3 point shooting even gets him the opportunity to take the floor.
Draymond is 100% a great comparison for DV. Valentine doesn't have the blocks, but that's just one stat. Other than that they are extremely similar with the all around play, the triple doubles, not the most prolific scorer, but they both do pretty much everything (some scoring, assists, rebounds, energy on the court)


For a very very basic comparison of skills it might work, but they're clearly very different players who won't have the same roles in the NBA. Draymond's a couple inches taller and 3.5 inches longer, and he's got quite a bit of muscle on him too. That's a big big difference. And Denzel scores mostly on spot-ups and catch-and-shoots that Draymond never did at MSU, and he's much more comfortable operating at full speed from the far perimeter with ball in his hands


Any comparison to Draymond is lazy and based upon them both attending the same university. Outside of them both attending the same university, they have no similarities outside of playing the game of basketball. They both play basketball, so they both share some similar skills, oh and they both wore green and white.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#65 » by BigSlam » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:24 pm

SelfishPlayer wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote: Draymond is 100% a great comparison for DV. Valentine doesn't have the blocks, but that's just one stat. Other than that they are extremely similar with the all around play, the triple doubles, not the most prolific scorer, but they both do pretty much everything (some scoring, assists, rebounds, energy on the court)


For a very very basic comparison of skills it might work, but they're clearly very different players who won't have the same roles in the NBA. Draymond's a couple inches taller and 3.5 inches longer, and he's got quite a bit of muscle on him too. That's a big big difference. And Denzel scores mostly on spot-ups and catch-and-shoots that Draymond never did at MSU, and he's much more comfortable operating at full speed from the far perimeter with ball in his hands


Any comparison to Draymond is lazy and based upon them both attending the same university. Outside of them both attending the same university, they have no similarities outside of playing the game of basketball. They both play basketball, so they both share some similar skills, oh and they both wore green and white.

Nailed it.


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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#66 » by GimmeDat » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:09 am

Valentine is a SG/SF, Draymond is a PF. I get people bringing Draymond up, but to call it a comparison is silly, they play completely different positions. The point is, both players have versatile skill-sets which make up for their mediocre athleticism.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#67 » by ZGendron317 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:05 am

GimmeDat wrote:Valentine is a SG/SF, Draymond is a PF. I get people bringing Draymond up, but to call it a comparison is silly, they play completely different positions. The point is, both players have versatile skill-sets which make up for their mediocre athleticism.


So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#68 » by GimmeDat » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:28 am

ZGendron317 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:Valentine is a SG/SF, Draymond is a PF. I get people bringing Draymond up, but to call it a comparison is silly, they play completely different positions. The point is, both players have versatile skill-sets which make up for their mediocre athleticism.


So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#69 » by sip » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:01 am

GimmeDat wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:Valentine is a SG/SF, Draymond is a PF. I get people bringing Draymond up, but to call it a comparison is silly, they play completely different positions. The point is, both players have versatile skill-sets which make up for their mediocre athleticism.


So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.


Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#70 » by BoyzNTheHood » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:59 am

Draymond and Denzel are compared because of the school and triple double tears, but I'd think a closer comparison for Denzel is Joe Johnson. Both are less athletic, ball handing wing players who can run their teams if need be but also score from anywhere on the court.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#71 » by GimmeDat » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:11 am

sip wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote:
So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.


Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.


As I said, he's not a poor athlete, but he's not on par with the other 'stars' of our game athletically. That's not to say he's not a great lateral athlete for his size, you clearly have to have that going for you if you're going to be a defender of Draymond's caliber. If you read the draft reports at the time, physical limitations had a lot to do with him falling as far as he did.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#72 » by doordoor123 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:55 pm

sip wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote:
So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.


Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.


I could name 20 guys that are bigs and are just as quick. Even guys with more explosion. You're exaggerating quite a bit. The reason he gets down the court quickly is because he's smart and has a system based on cheating out to get quick buckets. He's an average athlete, but he has pretty fluid movement which is rare for bigs. Because he's more fluid he's able to turn quicker and react quicker.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#73 » by LuessiT » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:58 pm

sip wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
ZGendron317 wrote:
So a top 3 player in college and a top 20 player in NBA have mediocre athleticism? Makes sense


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It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.


Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.


He's 6'7. Saying he's fast for a big means that ultimatively he's pretty slow for his size. Him being able to play as an undersized big allows him to hide his weaknesses in the athleticism department and he can hide the size part with his strength and strong mechanics.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#74 » by PickMeUpASixer » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:50 pm

I like the Matt Barnes, Danny Green comparisons, scrappy defending wings, who can shoot and attack a closeout. DV has a little more playmaking ability. Wings that shoot and defend tend to carve out nice careers. I think he'll be a nice pickup for a good team later in the 1st.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#75 » by sip » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:37 pm

doordoor123 wrote:
sip wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
It does make sense, if they're skilled players. Draymond might be a Top 20 player, but it would be an easy call to say he's the least athletic out of all of those 20 players, if not one of the least athletic. He's not a poor athlete, but he's not a supreme one like the majority of the players within his tier.. the point is, he's a valuable player because of his basketball abilities.

The same goes for Valentine. If you were judging Valentine purely on athletic ability, he would not be a standout prospect whatsoever, it's his passing, shooting, BBIQ, rebounding etc. that have turned him in to a Top 3 college player.


Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.


I could name 20 guys that are bigs and are just as quick. Even guys with more explosion. You're exaggerating quite a bit. The reason he gets down the court quickly is because he's smart and has a system based on cheating out to get quick buckets. He's an average athlete, but he has pretty fluid movement which is rare for bigs. Because he's more fluid he's able to turn quicker and react quicker.


Name me 20 bigs that are just as quick?
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#76 » by doordoor123 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:01 pm

sip wrote:
doordoor123 wrote:
sip wrote:
Draymond is an incredible athlete. He is not an elite leaper but he is extremely fast for a big with some of the quickest feet for a big in the nba. He is also incredibly coordinated for an athlete. Some people love to act like a players vertical is the end all be all for being a great athlete which couldn't be further from the truth.


I could name 20 guys that are bigs and are just as quick. Even guys with more explosion. You're exaggerating quite a bit. The reason he gets down the court quickly is because he's smart and has a system based on cheating out to get quick buckets. He's an average athlete, but he has pretty fluid movement which is rare for bigs. Because he's more fluid he's able to turn quicker and react quicker.


Name me 20 bigs that are just as quick?


I said I could, not that I want to. You guys are going to mistake Draymond's fluidity for speed and dispute it. **** it. This is not including a lot of combo forwards.

Jonas Jerebko
Amir Johnson
Thaddeus Young
Kristaps Porzingis
Nerlens Noel
Amir Johnson
Nikola Mirotic
Bobby Portis
Tristan Thompson
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Jabari Parker
Paul Millsap
Marvin Williams
Aaron Gordon
Montrezl Harrell
Josh Smith
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
Trey Lyles
James Michael McAdoo
Luc Mbah a Moute
Julius Randle
Kris Humphries
Willie Cauley-Stein
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#77 » by sip » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:26 pm

Good job posting 20 bigs. Now start over and name 20 that are as quick as Draymond because that list is an epic fail.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#78 » by HotelVitale » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:30 am

sip wrote:Good job posting 20 bigs. Now start over and name 20 that are as quick as Draymond because that list is an epic fail.

Sorry, man, but Draymond's not a quick player. Moves reasonably well for his size, isn't slow (esp in transition) and has a solid leap explosion, but he doesn't have much of a first step and quickness isn't a part of his game. I didn't look at the other dude's whole list but some of those guys are unquestionably quicker.

That's actually the most interesting parts about Draymond's offensive game: he does what he does without ever beating anyone or taking anyway off the dribble. Just finds gaps within the Warriors' spacing and makes you pay with his skill.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#79 » by KingKyrie1 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:39 pm

He plays at the speed of Jared Dudley, they have similar game, both are cerebral players.
I see him being a net positive player right away, and a big contributor wherever he goes..
Cavs giving 1st round picks for days is a bummer, those two 1st round picks that went for Mozgov could have been used here.
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Re: Denzel Valentine 

Post#80 » by ZGendron317 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:26 pm

sip wrote:Good job posting 20 bigs. Now start over and name 20 that are as quick as Draymond because that list is an epic fail.


Hahaha truuuuuuuuuue


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