Lonzo Ball

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Lonzo Ball 

Post#1 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:13 pm

There's not thread for him yet, so here goes. He is the real deal, not a flashy super-athlete but great pure point guard and really special in that regard IMO. I think UCLA would be night and day without him this year.

What I love is how often he's making passes (and assists) right after he receives a pass from someone else. He's constantly aware of all the players on the court and thinking of how to set them up, so doesn't need to receive the ball, survey the court, and then try to help create something.

He is fully capable of being the Bruin's most important player in a game, yet only score 2 points. To me, he's very Kidd-like in that regard. I guess he probably won't play past his freshman year. I think another year would help with his physical development and maturity (again, he's no Russell Westbrook athletically), but it financially won't make sense since he'll be a top 6 pick already. I think the 2nd-oldest brother is a HS senior now? Maybe he will stay an extra year to play with him.

I don't know how the form on that jump shot is going to work in the long run through.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#2 » by Justwar » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:19 pm

I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#3 » by doordoor123 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 11:29 pm

Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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In the NBA there are even better shooters. I want to see him run the P&R, but he isn't running it because UCLA doesn't have bigs that can roll with him. But the way he runs full-court gives me confidence he'll be amazing at it.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#4 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 12:13 am

Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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We'll see what happens tomorrow but I never understood this knock against him for how he gets his assist. "More creative" sounds like nitpicking IMO. Kid makes smart, timely passes that put teammates in great position to shoot on the catch.

Is he in the ideal situation for his game? Yes. But it's not like passing and the ability to do so smartly and find the open guy is something that doesn't translate regardless.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#5 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 12:24 am

madmaxmedia wrote:There's not thread for him yet, so here goes. He is the real deal, not a flashy super-athlete but great pure point guard and really special in that regard IMO. I think UCLA would be night and day without him this year.

What I love is how often he's making passes (and assists) right after he receives a pass from someone else. He's constantly aware of all the players on the court and thinking of how to set them up, so doesn't need to receive the ball, survey the court, and then try to help create something.

He is fully capable of being the Bruin's most important player in a game, yet only score 2 points. To me, he's very Kidd-like in that regard. I guess he probably won't play past his freshman year. I think another year would help with his physical development and maturity (again, he's no Russell Westbrook athletically), but it financially won't make sense since he'll be a top 6 pick already. I think the 2nd-oldest brother is a HS senior now? Maybe he will stay an extra year to play with him.

I don't know how the form on that jump shot is going to work in the long run through.


There have been rumors of him wanting to enter the league with his bros but I doubt he sticks around for that to happen. Also not worried about his shot anymore. He doesn't force it, takes open looks, knows how much room and time he needs, creates enough space to get it off, hits it at a good clip, and back to a point you made earlier he's a pass first point that does a lot of other things on the floor to help his team. So his shooting form doesn't strike as me as huge of an issue as say a Josh Jackson who would be expected to score more and take more shots.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#6 » by Duke4life831 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 3:01 am

Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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I just don't get this. People go crazy over Simmons passing last year, but he averaged 5.5 assists per 40 to 4 TOs last year in college. Ball right now is averaging 11.3 assists per 40 to just 2.6 assists. I don't want to hear the talent excuse either, Simmons joined a team that made the tourney and returned everyone but the two guys in the front court, but they replaced those two guys with Simmons and a top 40 recruit that was a Sophomore. UCLA last year with basically the identical team went 15-17, they're 8-0 already.

This is the one thing Ive always harped on with Simmons, I don't question his vision and passing ability, but he's always come off as more style over substance. He would make 2-3 highlight passes in a game. And I think many people allowed that to kinda wash over the mediocre assist totals and high TOs. You can make the argument Simmons didn't really help his team get better.

Ball to me makes all the right passes. The dude can have some flash but he just sets his guys up perfectly. Ya Ball's assists aren't always super flashy but he always finds the open guy and delivers the ball in the perfect spot for them to catch and shoot. Ball could easily add more flash to his game, he's pretty flashy in all star games and things like that. But in a real game a boring assist counts as much as a flashy one.

Basically in simple terms, give me the guy that racks up 10+ assists with a 5/1 assist/TO ratio and apparently makes his team better, over the guy who has a 5/4 assist/TO ratio who didn't improve his team, but man he made some really cool looking passes. Lonzo Ball runs the PG better than any college PG I've seen in the last decade easily. He may not be the most exciting guy but the most affective.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#7 » by Duke4life831 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 3:04 am

Marcus wrote:
Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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We'll see what happens tomorrow but I never understood this knock against him for how he gets his assist. "More creative" sounds like nitpicking IMO. Kid makes smart, timely passes that put teammates in great position to shoot on the catch.

Is he in the ideal situation for his game? Yes. But it's not like passing and the ability to do so smartly and find the open guy is something that doesn't translate regardless.


He is surrounded by really good shooters. But I will argue he's not in the most ideal situation for him. I think he would be even more affective if UCLA ran a lot more PnR. UCLA doesn't really run it all that often, which to me makes the assist numbers even more impressive.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#8 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 3:25 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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We'll see what happens tomorrow but I never understood this knock against him for how he gets his assist. "More creative" sounds like nitpicking IMO. Kid makes smart, timely passes that put teammates in great position to shoot on the catch.

Is he in the ideal situation for his game? Yes. But it's not like passing and the ability to do so smartly and find the open guy is something that doesn't translate regardless.


He is surrounded by really good shooters. But I will argue he's not in the most ideal situation for him. I think he would be even more affective if UCLA ran a lot more PnR. UCLA doesn't really run it all that often, which to me makes the assist numbers even more impressive.


The little PnR they do run with him yields good results from what I can see. As usual he's making the smart pass instead of the set one. Doesn't seem rushed at all.

I will say he may need to add a floater or show it if he has it because I'm sure teams will start giving him Rondo/Rubio love and just play him for the pass at the next level.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#9 » by Duke4life831 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 3:33 am

Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
We'll see what happens tomorrow but I never understood this knock against him for how he gets his assist. "More creative" sounds like nitpicking IMO. Kid makes smart, timely passes that put teammates in great position to shoot on the catch.

Is he in the ideal situation for his game? Yes. But it's not like passing and the ability to do so smartly and find the open guy is something that doesn't translate regardless.


He is surrounded by really good shooters. But I will argue he's not in the most ideal situation for him. I think he would be even more affective if UCLA ran a lot more PnR. UCLA doesn't really run it all that often, which to me makes the assist numbers even more impressive.


The little PnR they do run with him yields good results from what I can see. As usual he's making the smart pass instead of the set one. Doesn't seem rushed at all.

I will say he may need to add a floater or show it if he has it because I'm sure teams will start giving him Rondo/Rubio love and just play him for the pass at the next level.


Agreed 100% he needs a floater. I have faith that he will be able to add it. The one thing he does have over those two guys though is a legit jumper, you can't give him the Tony Allen treatment, he can burn you if you leave him open.

With that said he's the definition of a pass first PG. He's never going to be a 25 ppg scorer, I can see him being a 16-18ppg, 10-12ast, 6-7rbs a game. Very Jason Kidd-esque.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#10 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 4:01 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

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I just don't get this. People go crazy over Simmons passing last year, but he averaged 5.5 assists per 40 to 4 TOs last year in college. Ball right now is averaging 11.3 assists per 40 to just 2.6 assists. I don't want to hear the talent excuse either, Simmons joined a team that made the tourney and returned everyone but the two guys in the front court, but they replaced those two guys with Simmons and a top 40 recruit that was a Sophomore. UCLA last year with basically the identical team went 15-17, they're 8-0 already.

This is the one thing Ive always harped on with Simmons, I don't question his vision and passing ability, but he's always come off as more style over substance. He would make 2-3 highlight passes in a game. And I think many people allowed that to kinda wash over the mediocre assist totals and high TOs. You can make the argument Simmons didn't really help his team get better.

Ball to me makes all the right passes. The dude can have some flash but he just sets his guys up perfectly. Ya Ball's assists aren't always super flashy but he always finds the open guy and delivers the ball in the perfect spot for them to catch and shoot. Ball could easily add more flash to his game, he's pretty flashy in all star games and things like that. But in a real game a boring assist counts as much as a flashy one.

Basically in simple terms, give me the guy that racks up 10+ assists with a 5/1 assist/TO ratio and apparently makes his team better, over the guy who has a 5/4 assist/TO ratio who didn't improve his team, but man he made some really cool looking passes. Lonzo Ball runs the PG better than any college PG I've seen in the last decade easily. He may not be the most exciting guy but the most affective.


I go back to my original point about the PGs in our threads before the season started. Lonzo is the pass first pure PG in this draft. I think people haven't seen an elite one in so long they don't understand what it means to be one. Asking for him to beat people off the dribble, show his shot off the bounce, and score through contact at the cup in high volume doesn't apply with this type of player.

Also as much as I love Ben and I loveeeeee Ben there is a clear distinction between how he gets dimes compared to Lonzo. Ben pounds rock, defenses can load up, so either he beats a defender and exploits the defense with a great pass or because the defense is loaded up and there is no movement passes get picked off.

Lonzo moves rock quick and spaces, forces the defense to move and makes his guys active because they're getting touches. enough movement and the defense opens up shots.

I am curious about the closeouts UCLA are going to see against UK. He may be forced to make more plays this game and show that capability which I'm sure will be interesting for some.

I'm anticipating an up and down game since both like to push pace and I think we'll see the difference between how Fox and Ball do the same things on the floor.

For me personally outside of just a couple of fun head to heads this year I've seen everything I need to see and got all my questions answered about him.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#11 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 4:03 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
He is surrounded by really good shooters. But I will argue he's not in the most ideal situation for him. I think he would be even more affective if UCLA ran a lot more PnR. UCLA doesn't really run it all that often, which to me makes the assist numbers even more impressive.


The little PnR they do run with him yields good results from what I can see. As usual he's making the smart pass instead of the set one. Doesn't seem rushed at all.

I will say he may need to add a floater or show it if he has it because I'm sure teams will start giving him Rondo/Rubio love and just play him for the pass at the next level.


Agreed 100% he needs a floater. I have faith that he will be able to add it. The one thing he does have over those two guys though is a legit jumper, you can't give him the Tony Allen treatment, he can burn you if you leave him open.

With that said he's the definition of a pass first PG. He's never going to be a 25 ppg scorer, I can see him being a 16-18ppg, 10-12ast, 6-7rbs a game. Very Jason Kidd-esque.


Which is the comp I've branded him with in my mind for a while now.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#12 » by The Sparest » Sat Dec 3, 2016 7:12 am

Marcus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
The little PnR they do run with him yields good results from what I can see. As usual he's making the smart pass instead of the set one. Doesn't seem rushed at all.

I will say he may need to add a floater or show it if he has it because I'm sure teams will start giving him Rondo/Rubio love and just play him for the pass at the next level.


Agreed 100% he needs a floater. I have faith that he will be able to add it. The one thing he does have over those two guys though is a legit jumper, you can't give him the Tony Allen treatment, he can burn you if you leave him open.

With that said he's the definition of a pass first PG. He's never going to be a 25 ppg scorer, I can see him being a 16-18ppg, 10-12ast, 6-7rbs a game. Very Jason Kidd-esque.


Which is the comp I've branded him with in my mind for a while now.


Phew! I thought I would be called crazy for comparing Ball to Kidd. Glad to see I am not alone in seeing that.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#13 » by Mulhollanddrive » Sat Dec 3, 2016 8:23 am

Question for GMs might be do you use potentially your highest pick in your career on a guy who would still require 2 better guys than him to win a championship.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#14 » by Marcus » Sat Dec 3, 2016 9:05 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Question for GMs might be do you use potentially your highest pick in your career on a guy who would still require 2 better guys than him to win a championship.


I don't know if better is the word I would use but you definitely need guys that can score around him. Lonzo isn't a number one option for a NBA team but surround him with the right pieces and those pieces won't need to be elite to win games.

He's in this weird realm where I can't draft him and expect him to carry my garbage team to a chip on just his own merit. But i can draft him to a garbage team that may be missing his set of skills and know we'll be much better because of him.

Like if I were Philly I probably wouldn't touch him if Jackson, Fultz, Isaac, or even Tatum were still around.

But if I were Phoenix he'd be a perfect fit for me.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#15 » by Kolkmania » Sat Dec 3, 2016 11:22 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM mobile app


I just don't get this. People go crazy over Simmons passing last year, but he averaged 5.5 assists per 40 to 4 TOs last year in college. Ball right now is averaging 11.3 assists per 40 to just 2.6 assists. I don't want to hear the talent excuse either, Simmons joined a team that made the tourney and returned everyone but the two guys in the front court, but they replaced those two guys with Simmons and a top 40 recruit that was a Sophomore. UCLA last year with basically the identical team went 15-17, they're 8-0 already.

This is the one thing Ive always harped on with Simmons, I don't question his vision and passing ability, but he's always come off as more style over substance. He would make 2-3 highlight passes in a game. And I think many people allowed that to kinda wash over the mediocre assist totals and high TOs. You can make the argument Simmons didn't really help his team get better.

Ball to me makes all the right passes. The dude can have some flash but he just sets his guys up perfectly. Ya Ball's assists aren't always super flashy but he always finds the open guy and delivers the ball in the perfect spot for them to catch and shoot. Ball could easily add more flash to his game, he's pretty flashy in all star games and things like that. But in a real game a boring assist counts as much as a flashy one.

Basically in simple terms, give me the guy that racks up 10+ assists with a 5/1 assist/TO ratio and apparently makes his team better, over the guy who has a 5/4 assist/TO ratio who didn't improve his team, but man he made some really cool looking passes. Lonzo Ball runs the PG better than any college PG I've seen in the last decade easily. He may not be the most exciting guy but the most affective.


Completely agree with you that Ball's having a massive impact on UCLA. However, how much of these assists translate to the more P&R orientated and man-to-man defense NBA? UCLA is maximizing Ball's potential with surrounding him with Hamilton, Holiday, Leaf, etc who can all shoot. Combine that with the almost non-stop floppy sets and zone defense in college it results in constant good looks. Don't want to downplay his pinpoint accuracy on these passes though.

Will he able to continue this AST/TO ratio in the NBA with a less suitable environment? If he's going to be the lead guard in the NBA he has to be able to create out of the P&R or dribble penetration at some point.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#16 » by Duke4life831 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 11:42 am

Kolkmania wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Justwar wrote:I think he's a nice player but I think I wanna see more creative assists instead of passes for 3s. Stat filling from having incredible shooters. I wanna see his defense too. Let's see him tomorrow against a quality opp

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM mobile app


I just don't get this. People go crazy over Simmons passing last year, but he averaged 5.5 assists per 40 to 4 TOs last year in college. Ball right now is averaging 11.3 assists per 40 to just 2.6 assists. I don't want to hear the talent excuse either, Simmons joined a team that made the tourney and returned everyone but the two guys in the front court, but they replaced those two guys with Simmons and a top 40 recruit that was a Sophomore. UCLA last year with basically the identical team went 15-17, they're 8-0 already.

This is the one thing Ive always harped on with Simmons, I don't question his vision and passing ability, but he's always come off as more style over substance. He would make 2-3 highlight passes in a game. And I think many people allowed that to kinda wash over the mediocre assist totals and high TOs. You can make the argument Simmons didn't really help his team get better.

Ball to me makes all the right passes. The dude can have some flash but he just sets his guys up perfectly. Ya Ball's assists aren't always super flashy but he always finds the open guy and delivers the ball in the perfect spot for them to catch and shoot. Ball could easily add more flash to his game, he's pretty flashy in all star games and things like that. But in a real game a boring assist counts as much as a flashy one.

Basically in simple terms, give me the guy that racks up 10+ assists with a 5/1 assist/TO ratio and apparently makes his team better, over the guy who has a 5/4 assist/TO ratio who didn't improve his team, but man he made some really cool looking passes. Lonzo Ball runs the PG better than any college PG I've seen in the last decade easily. He may not be the most exciting guy but the most affective.


Completely agree with you that Ball's having a massive impact on UCLA. However, how much of these assists translate to the more P&R orientated and man-to-man defense NBA? UCLA is maximizing Ball's potential with surrounding him with Hamilton, Holiday, Leaf, etc who can all shoot. Combine that with the almost non-stop floppy sets and zone defense in college it results in constant good looks. Don't want to downplay his pinpoint accuracy on these passes though.

Will he able to continue this AST/TO ratio in the NBA with a less suitable environment? If he's going to be the lead guard in the NBA he has to be able to create out of the P&R or dribble penetration at some point.


I get that college has inferior defense but he still is averaging the most assists a game in the entire NCAA and has almost 20 more assists over the guyin 2nd. He's also just not a guy that turns it over that much, I think a big reason for this is he never gets sped up, he always plays at his page which can make what he's doing not look as impressive even though it really is.

I have no worries about him in the PnR. I actually think his game is perfect for the PnR. I think that his game is going to excel in the NBA with a focus on the PnR and faster pace.

I honestly think Ball is a once in a decade or more type passing talent. I think we had Kidd and Nash then CP3 and now we are going to have Ball. I think he's going to be the face of the next elite pass first PG.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#17 » by Duke4life831 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 11:49 am

I know many people won't agree with this and it's kinda out in left field. But I think a great fit for Ball is Milwaukee.

I know Milwaukee is playing Giannis a lot at PG. But I think Ball having Middleton to kick out to, Jabari or Giannis would be scary to think of in a PnR with him. I think they can just have Giannis be the main ball handler when Ball sits. I know Giannis is best offensively when he has the ball, but I think Jabari and Middleton would really thrive having Ball and I have faith Giannis could find ways to score still with him. Plus defensively Ball fits with that team being huge at every position. I also think Kidd would love to get him and coach him.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#18 » by Fischella » Sat Dec 3, 2016 1:30 pm

I am not a fan of how little he does on ball, great that he keeps the rock moving and great that he has confidence playing off-ball, although shooting is gonna need refinement, but he doesnt drive at all, doesnt play PnR, like his style is alright if your coach is gonna committ to it, something similar to what the Warriors do, off-ball stuff, little PnR, but he is more a complimentary piece, a more athletic Livingston with better shooting, which is a really good player, than a stud on-ball creator I'd say.
Still valuable esp if you trust the shooting translating somehow, but I dont think he should warrant top half of the lotto consideration honestly, he puts 0 pressure on the defense.
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#19 » by doordoor123 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 5:14 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:I know many people won't agree with this and it's kinda out in left field. But I think a great fit for Ball is Milwaukee.

I know Milwaukee is playing Giannis a lot at PG. But I think Ball having Middleton to kick out to, Jabari or Giannis would be scary to think of in a PnR with him. I think they can just have Giannis be the main ball handler when Ball sits. I know Giannis is best offensively when he has the ball, but I think Jabari and Middleton would really thrive having Ball and I have faith Giannis could find ways to score still with him. Plus defensively Ball fits with that team being huge at every position. I also think Kidd would love to get him and coach him.


He would be amazing there. And his comparisons with Kidd would come full-circle. Please happen. Please tank Bucks!
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Re: Lonzo Ball 

Post#20 » by madmaxmedia » Sat Dec 3, 2016 5:15 pm

If you are already mindful of position and spacing of your teammates before you get a pass, you can move the ball into position without having to create off the dribble first. That's why many of his assists don't look special, but that recognition ability and constant awareness makes it special.

He is going to have assists like that all year because of his teammates- they have Alford from long distance and 2 bigs who are good spot up shooters. So he is going to make his teammates look better all year, and less obviously so himself.

I am talking him up a little too much because it's so early in the season. We need time to see what his weaknesses are. But his strengths are obvious.


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