Where would Fultz and Ball rank in the last 5 drafts

[PLO]

Towns and AD ahead of Simmons I can understand - the remarkable thing about Simmons is that he was still easily the no 1 pick WITHOUT a jumper, that's because players of his size/abilities only come along once in a blue moon. Good PGs come along almost every year, as do wings - LeBronesque players once every 10 years if its a good decade.

I think this thread has also done a big disservice on Ingram - no one with any sense thought he was going to be any good in his first few years in the league, he's just so far behind physically. Its a bit of a travesty that he's playing starting minutes, but then that's the Lakers - the league really has something to answer for with the double standard in basically getting Hinkie axed when the Lakers are an abomination right now and have been for some years. If that damages the development of a really excellent prospect in Ingram that's a disgrace.

[HeartBreakKid]

6'10" super athletic point guard (Sixers plan on starting him at PG next season) with elite handles, passing and vision and great finishing ability around the basket?

People were using the term "generational talent" quite a bit before last year's draft, some were dubbing him the best prospect since LeBron. I'm factoring in the pre-draft hype of Ben Simmons as a prospect.

Fultz is my #1 prospect this year followed by Josh Jackson. I've seen enough to know how skilled he is offensively, and his passing skills have gone criminally underrated imo.

Ben Simmons was not considered a "generational" prospect. There is no such thing as a generational prospect in a weak draft, and there is no such thing as a generational prospect being challenged for the #1 spot, which for a long period of time Ben Simmons was neck to neck with Ingram (unless you're saying Ingram is also a generational prospect).

Some people look on youtube and see 3 minutes of highlights from certain players and use the term generational, so yes, I'm sure some people called Ben Simmons a generational prospect. The only thing that is "generational" is his passing ability, I have no idea how anyone could think Ben Simmons is the best prospect since Lebron James, that is seriously laughable - LBJ was drafted in 2003, so for anyone to say that likely does not have much credibility if they think Simmons is superior to Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Greg Oden etc.

As a college prospect, Ben Simmons didn't even have the hype of John Wall, so I am not getting where he is a God among men all of a sudden.


Ben Simmons has way more question marks than someone like Towns does, no one even knows what position Ben Simmons will even excel at. Simmons can't shoot, isn't that strong for someone his height, questionable how his defense will translate - there are plenty of question marks on how good his half court play will come to be. Simmons was worthy of being picked #1 overall, and is a legitimate blue chipper, but comparing him to the likes of Karl Towns seems crazy at this point, I am pretty sure if Towns and Simmons were in the same draft Towns would be picked over him.

The 'debate' between Ingram and Simmons was mostly fueled by Woj and his cronies at DX. The Sixers had the #1 pick, and they told Simmons he was the #1 pick after one workout, a few weeks prior to the draft. It really wasn't close at all. People need to stop believing that mock boards and ESPN talk shows actually matter.

What does the Sixers have to do with any of this? We're talking months before the lotto even happened, obviously RIGHT before the draft Ben Simmons was the favorite to be #1 - who is arguing otherwise?

Ingram vs Simmons isn't some ESPN talk show propaganda, I got no clue where you got that from. Plus you just mentioned 3 separate entities in Yahoo Sports, DX and ESPN.

[eagereyez]

Ben Simmons was not considered a "generational" prospect. There is no such thing as a generational prospect in a weak draft, and there is no such thing as a generational prospect being challenged for the #1 spot, which for a long period of time Ben Simmons was neck to neck with Ingram (unless you're saying Ingram is also a generational prospect).

Some people look on youtube and see 3 minutes of highlights from certain players and use the term generational, so yes, I'm sure some people called Ben Simmons a generational prospect. The only thing that is "generational" is his passing ability, I have no idea how anyone could think Ben Simmons is the best prospect since Lebron James, that is seriously laughable - LBJ was drafted in 2003, so for anyone to say that likely does not have much credibility if they think Simmons is superior to Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Greg Oden etc.

As a college prospect, Ben Simmons didn't even have the hype of John Wall, so I am not getting where he is a God among men all of a sudden.


Ben Simmons has way more question marks than someone like Towns does, no one even knows what position Ben Simmons will even excel at. Simmons can't shoot, isn't that strong for someone his height, questionable how his defense will translate - there are plenty of question marks on how good his half court play will come to be. Simmons was worthy of being picked #1 overall, and is a legitimate blue chipper, but comparing him to the likes of Karl Towns seems crazy at this point, I am pretty sure if Towns and Simmons were in the same draft Towns would be picked over him.

The 'debate' between Ingram and Simmons was mostly fueled by Woj and his cronies at DX. The Sixers had the #1 pick, and they told Simmons he was the #1 pick after one workout, a few weeks prior to the draft. It really wasn't close at all. People need to stop believing that mock boards and ESPN talk shows actually matter.

What does the Sixers have to do with any of this? We're talking months before the lotto even happened.

Ingram vs Simmons isn't some ESPN talk show propaganda, I got no clue where you got that from. You can even see the arguments on this very board from last season.

I don't know what posters on this board said, but the Sixers board voted 75% in favor of taking Simmons. Reports at the time suggested that the Sixers themselves were heavily favoring Simmons. These reports are supported by the fact that the Sixers notified Simmons of their intention to take him 1st overall after a single workout, weeks prior to the draft.

The gap between Simmons and Ingram was pretty large. Ingram was a poor defender who hit a bunch of open 3s thanks to Duke's offense. His shooting hasn't translated at all. We saw the same thing happen with Winslow. This is why FT% is a better indicator of shooting ability than 3P%. All FTs are the same, but not all 3PAs are the same. Some guys in college feast off of wide open shots that they will never get in the NBA. Simmons on the other hand was an elite rebounder, foul drawer, and an underutilized passer. He was a more efficient scorer than Ingram despite playing on a much worse team, and without spamming wide open college 3s. That should give you an idea of how dominant he was in the paint and in transition. Analytics had Simmons over Ingram by a mile.

If the consensus here was that Ingram and Simmons were neck and neck, then the consensus was horribly wrong. Ingram has been the worst player out of his rookie class this year. He will need to make some ridiculous leaps to come anywhere near his projections, although he is very young so there's room for optimism.

[Unbreakable99]

Ben Simmons was not considered a "generational" prospect. There is no such thing as a generational prospect in a weak draft, and there is no such thing as a generational prospect being challenged for the #1 spot, which for a long period of time Ben Simmons was neck to neck with Ingram (unless you're saying Ingram is also a generational prospect).

Some people look on youtube and see 3 minutes of highlights from certain players and use the term generational, so yes, I'm sure some people called Ben Simmons a generational prospect. The only thing that is "generational" is his passing ability, I have no idea how anyone could think Ben Simmons is the best prospect since Lebron James, that is seriously laughable - LBJ was drafted in 2003, so for anyone to say that likely does not have much credibility if they think Simmons is superior to Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Greg Oden etc.

As a college prospect, Ben Simmons didn't even have the hype of John Wall, so I am not getting where he is a God among men all of a sudden.


Ben Simmons has way more question marks than someone like Towns does, no one even knows what position Ben Simmons will even excel at. Simmons can't shoot, isn't that strong for someone his height, questionable how his defense will translate - there are plenty of question marks on how good his half court play will come to be. Simmons was worthy of being picked #1 overall, and is a legitimate blue chipper, but comparing him to the likes of Karl Towns seems crazy at this point, I am pretty sure if Towns and Simmons were in the same draft Towns would be picked over him.

The 'debate' between Ingram and Simmons was mostly fueled by Woj and his cronies at DX. The Sixers had the #1 pick, and they told Simmons he was the #1 pick after one workout, a few weeks prior to the draft. It really wasn't close at all. People need to stop believing that mock boards and ESPN talk shows actually matter.

What does the Sixers have to do with any of this? We're talking months before the lotto even happened, obviously RIGHT before the draft Ben Simmons was the favorite to be #1 - who is arguing otherwise?

Ingram vs Simmons isn't some ESPN talk show propaganda, I got no clue where you got that from. Plus you just mentioned 3 separate entities in Yahoo Sports, DX and ESPN.

There was no debate who was going to be the number one pick all season. Ingram was never a serious candidate to be number one. Every GM was taking Simmons. Simmons was the clear best player and generational talent.

[LALifer49]

Towns and AD ahead of Simmons I can understand - the remarkable thing about Simmons is that he was still easily the no 1 pick WITHOUT a jumper, that's because players of his size/abilities only come along once in a blue moon. Good PGs come along almost every year, as do wings - LeBronesque players once every 10 years if its a good decade.

I think this thread has also done a big disservice on Ingram - no one with any sense thought he was going to be any good in his first few years in the league, he's just so far behind physically. Its a bit of a travesty that he's playing starting minutes, but then that's the Lakers - the league really has something to answer for with the double standard in basically getting Hinkie axed when the Lakers are an abomination right now and have been for some years. If that damages the development of a really excellent prospect in Ingram that's a disgrace.

Thanks for the concern, but he seems to be developing just fine...13.5/4/2.5 on 50% shooting post allstar break, he is showing clear improvement. He's shooting like crap from 3 and from the ft line, but I don't think those things are the Lakers fault...

[kobe808lak]

Towns and AD ahead of Simmons I can understand - the remarkable thing about Simmons is that he was still easily the no 1 pick WITHOUT a jumper, that's because players of his size/abilities only come along once in a blue moon. Good PGs come along almost every year, as do wings - LeBronesque players once every 10 years if its a good decade.

I think this thread has also done a big disservice on Ingram - no one with any sense thought he was going to be any good in his first few years in the league, he's just so far behind physically. Its a bit of a travesty that he's playing starting minutes, but then that's the Lakers - the league really has something to answer for with the double standard in basically getting Hinkie axed when the Lakers are an abomination right now and have been for some years. If that damages the development of a really excellent prospect in Ingram that's a disgrace.

A travesty he is getting actual playing time to develop and get better? I don't understand some of you guys on this board. You don't get better sitting on the bench. The Lakers are terrible with or without him so he might as well play with the other young guys.

[alec613]

Ingram looks like hes going to be a special player. Hes been been improving each month and is posting respectable numbers while playing great help D.

Hes like 189 lbs right now, so it was pretty much a given that he was gonna have trouble finishing through contact or locking down his man (his length helped quite a bit on that department)

He'll be just fine. Crazy how people are quick to call one and done rookies a bust because they aren't posting spectacular stats in their rookie seasom

Sent from my SM-G925K using RealGM mobile app

[bigboi]

Simmons was a consensus #1. This draft doesn't have a consensus #1 type of player (it has several "second tier" players). Simmons would go first and it wouldn't be close.

No, he wouldn't. Stop it. JJ would prob go ahead of Simmons, freaking poowater Ingram had an argument

stopping by to give this a hefty LOL

Your team is trash, LOL to that

[EvanZ]

Ingram looks like hes going to be a special player. Hes been been improving each month and is posting respectable numbers while playing great help D.

Hes like 189 lbs right now, so it was pretty much a given that he was gonna have trouble finishing through contact or locking down his man (his length helped quite a bit on that department)

He'll be just fine. Crazy how people are quick to call one and done rookies a bust because they aren't posting spectacular stats in their rookie seasom

Sent from my SM-G925K using RealGM mobile app

He can't shoot dude. That's kind of a big problem for a guy who's supposed to be a scorer. He's shooting 62% on free throws, even worse than he did in college. 47.5% TS for the season on only 16% USG is pretty much as bad as it gets, I don't care if he's 19 or 29. That's really bad.

He has a loooooooong way to go.

[crows2]

1. Simmons
2. Towns
3. Wiggins
4. Fultz
5. Parker
6. Embiid (pre-back issue was probably #1 overall)
7. Ball
8. Jackson
9. Ingram
10. Okafor (was consensus #2 in that draft ahead of Russell)

[Ettorefm]

Simmons over Towns? You're aware that he's averaging 25/12 at 21 and dropping 30pt games every other game right?

[psimanic1]

No love for Jokic...

[crows2]

Simmons over Towns? You're aware that he's averaging 25/12 at 21 and dropping 30pt games every other game right?

It's a ranking of how they were rated before their respective drafts. Obviously it would change dramatically if their NBA careers were considered.

[Unbreakable99]

Simmons over Towns? You're aware that he's averaging 25/12 at 21 and dropping 30pt games every other game right?

I'd take Simmons over Towns too.

[Disposable Hero]

Simmons over Towns? You're aware that he's averaging 25/12 at 21 and dropping 30pt games every other game right?

I'd take Simmons over Towns too.

homer!

I love Simmons too but Towns is legit going to be the best modern day Center in the game. Simmons has a chance to be the best modern day Power Forward. But Towns is already doing it so he gets the nod

[kobe808lak]

Towns > Simmons.

[peachbucket]

I agree that there's a pretty good case for Jackson to be in the group... very strong for a potential #3.

I'd say Embiid without injury doesn't exist... which is why he wasn't on my list

I would say that this list doesn't exist because these prospects are from different years...it's a hypothetical exercise to compare prospects...that's why I included Embiid.

A couple of caveats to my list...

I have Simmons ranked lower than he should be because of the competitive issues he showed at LSU...from a pure basketball perspective I think he belongs at the end of Tier1 or the top of Tier2 ahead of Jackson as he will be a double digit rebounder in the NBA.

Also, I think Ball has a good chance to end up a transcendant player (like Steve Nash) and may very well belong in Tier1 ahead of Fultz...I'm just hesitant to put him there right now because he will require the right offensive system (ball movement, surrounded by scorers), time to mature physically, and possible overhaul his shot mechanics...although I do expect him to get there.

Ball doesn't compare to Steve Nash.. he can't even run a PnR. I think he has a very slim to nonexistent chance of being a transcendent NBA player on the level of prime Nash

If they were in the same draft class, Simmons, Wiggins and Parker would go above Ball just based on physical tools alone and the ceiling they were expected to have.

Ball will go #1 or #2 in this draft ahead of Jackson who I think most would have ahead of Wiggins and Parker. I don't care about their better physical tools, Lonzo's basketball iq and passing is light years ahead of Parker and Wiggins.

[TTP]

Yup. Dont get me wrong I think hes a solid prospect and should be an all star. But he has 0 jump shot, terrible FT shooter, doesnt have any legit low post moves, isnt a good defender and hes known for his passing yet has always had a bad Ast/TO ratio. Again not saying hes a bad prospect, but to act like hes this great prospect that is untouchable, I dont get.

Simmons was a decent ft shooter, a reason why many thought his jump shot could be reclaimed (though it's true that is questionable). No low "legit" low post moves? Have we watched the same player in college?! As far as his defending, I think he's a wait and see, he's certainly got something to work with on that end but did have a lack of application there.

The reason he would be one is because in college he looked like lebron lite, there's very very few prospects you could describe as such anywhere at any time in the history of the game.

63% FT shooter in high school and 67% FT shooter in college (63% in his 6 SL games). I would not consider someone who shoots in the mid 60s to be a decent FT shooter. When it comes to his low post moves, I saw a solid right hand hook (didnt do it too often), either than that the majority of his post moves was more of a bully ball style where he was able to get away with it because he had a size and athleticism advantage. So Im not sold that his low post scoring will translate to the NBA.

Id also say Lebron-lite is a very favorable way to describe him. He was like Lebron just without the defense, with basically a 1/1 Ast/TO ratio and without the wins.

Ill say it again, Im not a Simmons hater, I think hes going to be a real good pro. But he wasnt Lebron-lite in college for LSU and I dont see this elite type prospect that others talk like he is. I feel like he was part of a really weak draft class so he was really hyped up by ESPN (shocking they televised his games and the draft).

I'm not saying that Simmons will be a good shooter, but using FT% for this particular argument is a strange approach when you consider the college FT% of his competition.

Ingram - 68.2% (61.9% NBA)
Ball - 67.3%
Simmons - 67.0%
Fultz - 64.9%
Jackson - 56.6%

None of those guys shot well from the line in college (or NBA in Ingram's case) so when making a comparison between players, FT% shouldn't be used as a reason to rank Simmons behind the others.

[Golabki]

I would say that this list doesn't exist because these prospects are from different years...it's a hypothetical exercise to compare prospects...that's why I included Embiid.

A couple of caveats to my list...

I have Simmons ranked lower than he should be because of the competitive issues he showed at LSU...from a pure basketball perspective I think he belongs at the end of Tier1 or the top of Tier2 ahead of Jackson as he will be a double digit rebounder in the NBA.

Also, I think Ball has a good chance to end up a transcendant player (like Steve Nash) and may very well belong in Tier1 ahead of Fultz...I'm just hesitant to put him there right now because he will require the right offensive system (ball movement, surrounded by scorers), time to mature physically, and possible overhaul his shot mechanics...although I do expect him to get there.

Ball doesn't compare to Steve Nash.. he can't even run a PnR. I think he has a very slim to nonexistent chance of being a transcendent NBA player on the level of prime Nash

If they were in the same draft class, Simmons, Wiggins and Parker would go above Ball just based on physical tools alone and the ceiling they were expected to have.

Ball will go #1 or #2 in this draft ahead of Jackson who I think most would have ahead of Wiggins and Parker. I don't care about their better physical tools, Lonzo's basketball iq and passing is light years ahead of Parker and Wiggins.

Agreed - Jackson is better than Parker or Wiggins. I should have included him.

[crows2]

Chad Ford released his annual draft tiers article this week, with Fultz and Ball both ranked in Tier I by NBA GM's which corresponds to potential franchise players.

So over the last 5 years, the prospects ranked in Tier I have been:
Wiggins
Parker
Embiid
Towns
Simmons
Fultz
Ball

Meaning Fultz and Ball rank in the top 7 prospects of the last 5 years.