All Things Luka Doncic

[Bob8]

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread on RealGM. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA. If that statement is actually true than you’re claiming that Doncic is a better player than Dragic. Hoopshype just posted their predictions for 17-18 top 30 NBA point guards. They ranked Dragic at #10.

http://hoopshype.com/2017/08/04/we-have-projected-the-top-30-point-guards-for-2017-18/

Point guard position is currently the most stacked in the league, maybe even ever. Top 14-15 point guards could’ve been All-Stars if they played in a different era or a different conference. Are you seriously arguing that Doncic is already better than a top 10 point guard in the NBA? This thread is wonderful… in a really bad way.

He has clearly better shot, better basketball IQ, is better rebounder and is better passer.His ceiling is much higher. But he's 18 years old, doesn't have developed some aspects of his game, he's physically not yet there and he of course lacks consistency and experience.

Dragic didn't do anything in Fiba basketball, clubs or national team, only bright spot is Eurobasket in Slovenia. He had 1 more good WC but Slovenia didn't do anything, so...

We will see how Doncic and Dragic will play in Eurobasket. But it will be very funny to see if Doncic will be better than top 10 Nba point guard.

Doncic clearly has a higher ceiling than Dragic. We’re talking about him possibly being a generational talent after all. But that’s not the argument you were making. You’re claiming that he’s already better than a top 10 point guard in the league and that is why many fans can’t take the Doncic hyperbole seriously.

Dragic’s stats last season matched his All-NBA season. Are you really arguing that Doncic could start for Miami Heat now and finish the season with better numbers? Why, because he had a few really good meaningless friendly games?

Nobody would make that claim about any of the top prospects coming to the league this year, so making that claim with a player more than a year younger just sounds silly. Just as silly as Gallinari or Turkoglu comparisons sound when some reporters are talking about Doncic.

And one Eurobasket won’t really change that.

I said he's better shooter, better passer and better rebounder. Nothing else.

You said Dragic would be easily the best player in Euroleague, what is very funny, because when he was in Europe, he was not even close and he was never that good in national team either, with one exception. But let's say he's far the best Pg in Europe, but you would not find strange if Doncic will be better in Eurobasket? 18 years kid better than top 10 NBA Pg and they're playing in the same team? If that happens Doncic is the best prospect since LeBron or Dragic simply is not that good. I'm afraid second opinion is much more realistic.

[Bob8]

He has clearly better shot, better basketball IQ, is better rebounder and is better passer.His ceiling is much higher. But he's 18 years old, he's physically not yet there and he of course lacks consistency and experience.

Dragic didn't do anything in Fiba basketball, clubs or national team, only bright spot is Eurobasket in Slovenia. He had 1 more good WC but Slovenia didn't do anything, so...

We will see how Doncic and Dragic will play in Eurobasket. But it will be very funny to see if Doncic will be better than top 10 Nba point guard.

Dear me, Slovenian team lead by Dragic with this AMAZING roster of renown euroleague stars playing in elite clubs
http://www.fiba.basketball/basketballworldcup/2014/Slovenia#|tab=roster
only came to quarterfinals and then lost to USA. Clearly it shows that Dragic cannot achieve anything on FIBA tournaments.

Yes they beat Mexico, Australia, Korea, Dominican Republic and Angola. Incredible.

[Wildlinger]

I said he's better shooter, better passer and better rebounder. Nothing else.

How exactly is Doncic a better shooter? Unless you’re basing that on a couple of meaningless friendly games, than every shooting stat for last season is on Dragic’s side. We’re talking volume and efficiency from every single spot on the floor… beyond the arc, midrange and under the rim. So again, how exactly is Doncic already a better shooter?

Same question goes for passing. Doncic had a crazy high turnover percentage last season. He’s a really good pick and roll passer with elite vision, but his inexperience showed a lot. That’s why Real brought back Campazzo even before Llull got injured. Dragic on the other hand had a relatively low turnover percentage. Doncic’s drive and kick game also needs work and that’s something Dragic excels at.

The rebounding point is just silly, since Doncic is a few inches taller, though he is an excellent rebounder for his size. And I won’t even bother with the basketball IQ stuff, since it’s a very indeterminate category. Although a player with a supposedly already developed genius level of basketball IQ, probably shouldn’t have one of the highest turnover percentages in Euroleague. Don’t you think so?

I like Doncic a lot and I think he’s going to be really good. But hyperbole like you’re spewing doesn’t help him one bit. In fact it just raises expectations to unreasonable levels. A good example of that is Wiggins. He turned out to be a really good player, just not a generational game changing talent he was made out to be. So he’s kinda forgotten in Minnesota and the biggest debate around him is whether he’s worth a max offer.

[Mirotic12]

Another big takeaway is just how ordinary Dragic looks. Most of the time, they dont even try to run plays through him, he just stands in the corner.

Remember that debate we had here about Dragic before? Myself and some others here said he would be nothing more than an average player in EuroLeague. We took a ton of heat for that from NBA fans. but reality is reality. He's a lot like Giannis and Rubio - totally needs NBA rules and reffing to be effective.

Do games like this have any bearing or meaning at all? I remember Nick Calathes, at age 20, in his first game with Greek senior NT, had almost a triple double in the first half

A few days ago you were clearly arguing that Doncic’s friendly game stats don’t matter at all, or better yet don’t “have any bearing”. Now you’re trying to argue that Dragic is overrated based on one single friendly game which he pretty much half-assed. So why should friendly games count when we’re talking about Dragic, if they don’t count when we’re talking about Doncic? Ever heard of consistency? You should try it sometimes.

Also, would you mind explaining to me how come Dragic who according to you can’t play FIBA basketball, already made an All-Tournament team under FIBA rules? That was when he single-handedly eliminated Greeks from the competition, so I'm sure you remember that game. If not, let me remind you. That was the game where he completely owned an NBA scrub like Spanoulis on both sides of the floor, hanging 28, 5 and 4 on him and his team. Again, under FIBA rules and in FIBA tournament playoffs. That’s when national teams play the hardest defense and they obviously couldn’t stop Dragic.

He was also the 2nd best scorer and the 2nd most efficient point guard at the last world cup. Dragic has been really good throughout his FIBA career and the numbers clearly show that. That's if we're dealing with facts of course and not just talking out of our collective asses.

FIBA basketball naturally favors the defensive side of the game, but talent is talent wherever it plays. Dragic is good in the NBA and he's good in FIBA. He would easily be the best player in Euroleague, after all he’s clearly better than all Euroleague MVPs. The problem with Rubio and Giannis is that they still can’t shoot, but that’s not the case with Dragic. He just finished another season where he shot over 40% from three (42.7% on pull up threes).

You can't make certain NBA busts like Spanoulis look better just by trashing superior players who proved themselves in the toughest basketball competition there is. Many so called “euro legends” completely failed in the NBA, simply because they couldn’t handle the talent level. Dragic didn’t. Get over it. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you’re going to argue that Sergio Llull, Nando de Colo, Nemanja Bjelica, Segio Rodriguez or Vassilis Spanoullis (last 5 Euroleague MVPs) are better than Dragic… or Giannis… or Rubio… and eventually Doncic as well.

EDIT: Actually, based on this comment you made later…

I think Dragic would be Heurtel with a worse jumper.

…I really don’t know why I even took the time to respond. I read it after I posted this and now it’s clear to me that you’re just trolling or have never watched a single NBA game.

I stopped reading after the first two sentences. Not wasting my time.

One thing is definitely sure however from this thread's view at least........Goran Dragic is easily the most overrated basketball player in the world, and maybe even of all time.

[Bob8]

I said he's better shooter, better passer and better rebounder. Nothing else.

How exactly is Doncic a better shooter? Unless you’re basing that on a couple of meaningless friendly games, than every shooting stat for last season is on Dragic’s side. We’re talking volume and efficiency from every single spot on the floor… beyond the arc, midrange and under the rim. So again, how exactly is Doncic already a better shooter?

Same question goes for passing. Doncic had a crazy high turnover percentage last season. He’s a really good pick and roll passer with elite vision, but his inexperience showed a lot. That’s why Real brought back Campazzo even before Llull got injured. Dragic on the other hand had a relatively low turnover percentage. Doncic’s drive and kick game also needs work and that’s something where Dragic excels at.

The rebounding point is just silly, since Doncic is a few inches taller, though he is an excellent rebounder for his size. And I won’t even bother with the basketball IQ stuff, since it’s a very indeterminate category. Although a player with a supposedly already developed genius level of basketball IQ, probably shouldn’t have one of the highest turnover percentages in Euroleague. Don’t you think so?

I like Doncic a lot and I think he’s going to be really good. But hyperbole like you’re spewing doesn’t help him one bit. In fact it just raises expectations to unreasonable levels. A good example of that is Wiggins. He turned out to be a really good player, just not a generational game changing talent he was made out to be. So he’s kinda forgotten in Minnesota and the biggest debate around him is whether he’s worth a max offer.

Dragic's stats in Europe,

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?pcode=THB#!careerstats

Very bad 3 points shooting.

his stats in Nba,

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html

this years 3 points shooting is somehow out of his normal percentage.

It's not about stats only, if you look how they shoot, it's pretty obvious who's better long range shooter.

But as I said we will see in Eurobasket who's better at this moment, 18 years old kid or top 10 NBA Pg.

[Wildlinger]

One thing is definitely sure however from this thread's view at least........Goran Dragic is easily the most overrated basketball player in the world, and maybe even of all time.

Not really and using bold text doesn't make it more true either. He’s a top 8-13 point guard in the league, at the time when this position is the most stacked ever. That just means that he’s a top 8-13 point guard in the world as well. Arguing otherwise would again be silly and not worth of a serious debate.

I’d argue that a clear NBA scrub like Spanoulis is actually the most overrated player ever, but nobody outside of Europe actually knows Spanoulis.

I don’t know of a lot of players like Dragic who were the 45th pick in the draft and than went on to achieve All-NBA status. The only logical argument is actually quite the opposite. Based solely on facts and numbers, Dragic might actually be one of the more underrated players in the NBA today.

[Bob8]

One thing is definitely sure however from this thread's view at least........Goran Dragic is easily the most overrated basketball player in the world, and maybe even of all time.

Not really and using bold text doesn't make it more true either. He’s a top 8-13 point guard in the league, at the time when this position is the most stacked ever. That just means that he’s a top 8-13 point guard in the world as well. Arguing otherwise would again be silly and not worth of a serious debate.

I’d argue that a clear NBA scrub like Spanoulis is actually the most overrated player ever, but nobody outside of Europe actually knows Spanoulis.

Regarding Dragic, I don’t know of a lot of players who were the 45th pick in the draft and than went on to achieve All-NBA status. The only logical argument is actually quite the opposite. Based solely on facts and numbers, Dragic might actually be one of the more underrated players in the NBA today.

If that's was true Dragic would have dominated every Fiba competition.

[Wildlinger]

If that's was true Dragic would have dominated every Fiba competition.

I'd still like for you to tell me exactly how is Doncic already a better shooter or passer than Dragic since all advanced numbers are on Dragic's side. Even if we account for lesser role and playing time, advanced shooting numbers are still on Dragic's side.

I don't even expect you to answer the question about basketball IQ and how it relates to Doncic's crazy high turnover percentage. Just a well argued answer about his shooting and passing will do. Your previous attempt was kinda silly, since you used 10-11 year old shooting stats from Dragic's one season in Euroleague as evidence. I have 10 years of shooting data from NBA on my side. You'll definitely have to do better than that.

Doncic clearly has the potential to be a better shooter and passer. We already established that. But looking at all the data available, he's just not there yet and you'll have to give me some solid numbers or film evidence to convince me otherwise.

[Bob8]

If that's was true Dragic would have dominated every Fiba competition.

I'd still like for you to tell me exactly how is Doncic already a better shooter or passer than Dragic since all advanced numbers are on Dragic's side. Even if we account for lesser role and playing time, advanced shooting numbers are still on Dragic's side.

I don't even expect you to answer the question about basketball IQ and how it relates to Doncic's crazy high turnover percentage. Just a well argued answer about his shooting and passing will do. Your previous attempt was kinda silly, since you used 10-11 year old shooting stats from Dragic's one season in Euroleague as evidence. I have 10 years of shooting data from NBA on my side. You'll definitely have to do better than that.

Doncic clearly has the potential to be a better shooter and passer. We already established that. But looking at all the data available, he's just not there yet and you'll have to give me some solid numbers or film evidence to convince me otherwise.

You can't look at data when one is 18 years old. There's simply not enough data. Just look at them, how they're shooting, how fluid they are and try to be fair. One good season can't change the fact that Dragic is very mediocre shooter. And if you really want to look at data 37/50/84 in Euroleague is great shooting for someone 17/18 years old. Dragic has never in his career shot Ft 84%, and only 3 times had over 37% in 3pt. Maybe preparation games are meaningless, believe me against Croatia every game is very important , but Doncic looked pretty impressive for a rookie. But let's wait what Eurobasket will bring. And I hope there will be no excuses if things won't go to Dragic's way.

http://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurobasket/494910/luka-doncic-highlights-croatia/

Only 1 game but I have never seen Dragic shooting like that.

[Wildlinger]

You can't look at data when one is 18 years old. There's simply not enough data. Just look at them, how they're shooting, how fluid are and try to be fair. One good season can't change the fact that Dragic is very mediocre shooter. And if you really want to look at data 37/50/84 in Euroleague is great shooting for someone 17/18 years old. Dragic has never in his career shot Ft 84%, and only 3 times had over 37% in 3pt. Maybe preparation games are meaningless, believe me against Croatia every game is very important , but Doncic looked pretty impressive for a rookie. But let's wait what Eurobasket will bring. And I hope there will be no excuses if things won't go to Dragic's way.

You said Doncic is a better shooter than Dragic now. He's clearly not and you didn't provide any numbers to support your claim. I don't mind a reasonable level of hype but you obviously said something which is factually just not true. So I'll provide you with some more solid numbers before I stop posting on this topic.

Dragic had 33 three-shot fouls this past season, third-most behind Harden (122) and Williams (49). So players around the league seem to respect Dragic's pull-up three pointer enough for him to draw elite foul numbers on his shots. That's definitely not a sign of a mediocre shooter. 8 or 9 Eurobasket games won't change my mind in any way. Dragic already had multiple good FIBA performances.

[Wildlinger]

http://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurobasket/494910/luka-doncic-highlights-croatia/

Only 1 game but I have never seen Dragic shooting like that.

You edited your response after posting, so I'll respond to your edit before I'm completely done with this topic. You obviously don't watch Dragic or NBA, since he had a better shooting official NBA game just a few months ago, when he shot 7/9 against Minnesota. I'd say that's factually better than 6/8 shooting on FIBA three pointers in a meaningless friendly august game. Now I'm done.

[Bob8]

You can't look at data when one is 18 years old. There's simply not enough data. Just look at them, how they're shooting, how fluid are and try to be fair. One good season can't change the fact that Dragic is very mediocre shooter. And if you really want to look at data 37/50/84 in Euroleague is great shooting for someone 17/18 years old. Dragic has never in his career shot Ft 84%, and only 3 times had over 37% in 3pt. Maybe preparation games are meaningless, believe me against Croatia every game is very important , but Doncic looked pretty impressive for a rookie. But let's wait what Eurobasket will bring. And I hope there will be no excuses if things won't go to Dragic's way.

You said Doncic is a better shooter than Dragic now. He's clearly not and you didn't provide any numbers to support your claim. I don't mind a reasonable level of hype but you obviously said something which is factually just not true. So I'll provide you with some more solid numbers before I stop posting on this topic.

Dragic had 33 three-shot fouls this past season, third-most behind Harden (122) and Williams (49). So players around the league seem to respect Dragic's pull-up three pointer enough for him to draw elite foul numbers on his shots. That's definitely not a sign of a mediocre shooter. 8 or 9 Eurobasket games won't change my mind in any way. Dragic already had multiple good FIBA performances.

You're more or less saying only Nba matters. If you're top 10 Pg in Nba, you're top ten Pg in the world. Or are you saying that, he's better shooter because he was 3% points better than Doncic in last season? At this moment means at this moment, Doncic is at this moment, in preparation games, better than Dragic. But I agree, this is only preparation, but if he will be better in Eurobasket, what is a big if, than he's for sure at this moment better than Dragic. What can be more fair than the same tournament, the same team and even similar position? Eye test for me clearly answers who's better shooter, but let's see the Eurobasket.
Dragic had only 2 good Fiba competitions and that's really not that impressive considering his age and that in World cup, he played mainly against 3rd tier teams.

[Bob8]

http://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurobasket/494910/luka-doncic-highlights-croatia/

Only 1 game but I have never seen Dragic shooting like that.

You edited your response after posting, so I'll respond to your edit before I'm completely done with this topic. You obviously don't watch Dragic or NBA, since he had a better shooting official NBA game just a few months ago, when he shot 7/9 against Minnesota. I'd say that's factually better than 6/8 shooting on FIBA three pointers in a meaningless friendly august game. Now I'm done.

Just look how Doncic is shooting and awkward style of Dragic. I'm pretty sure Dragic will be first to admit Doncic is a better shooter. Like Doncic will admit he's light years away from Dragic in attacking the rim.

[Thespianoid]

well this thread got derailed again.

[SportsGuy8]

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA.

By implying that Doncic is a better rebounder than Dragic mostly because he's taller and plays a different position, you really aren't that much better, you're just on the other side of the coin. Just as you "get a good laugh" when you feel that people overrate Doncic, the other side probably laughs at statements like this, or finds them ridiculous. It's why so many people think this thread is full of Doncic hate.

Doncic is averaging 8 rebounds per36 on a very stacked Real Madrid team. It looks like those numbers are going to be even higher playing for Slovenia. Right now he's at 11 rebounds per36, but that's going to drop a bit with Randolph and against better opponents. Still, he's basically ELITE (or very close to elite) at rebounding, even if he ends up playing SF. Rebounding numbers are one of the things that translate extremely well from Europe to NBA. There's lots of data supporting this.

My point: both sides keep making ridiculous statements.

P.s.: It's quite possible that Bob8 is correct. Even if Doncic is a better shooter (I wouldn't say that yet, though, we need a bigger sample), passer (he most likely is, but Dragic creates more passing opportunities with his penetrations) and rebounder (he definitely is) than Dragic, that still doesn't mean he's a better player (as of right now). Scoring is still the most important part of basketball and Dragic excels at it, at least in the NBA.

[Bob8]

Doncic is better shooter, better passer and better rebounder than Dragic at this moment.

…and this is why I get a good laugh every time I visit a Doncic thread. Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA.

By implying that Doncic is a better rebounder than Dragic mostly because he's taller and plays a different position, you really aren't that much better, you're just on the other side of the coin. Just as you "get a good laugh" when you feel that people overrate Doncic, the other side probably laughs at statements like this, or finds them ridiculous. It's why so many people think this thread is full of Doncic hate.

Doncic is averaging 8 rebounds per36 on a very stacked Real Madrid team. It looks like those numbers are going to be even higher playing for Slovenia. Right now he's at 11 rebounds per36, but that's going to drop a bit with Randolph and against better opponents. Still, he's basically ELITE (or very close to elite) at rebounding, even if he ends up playing SF. Rebounding numbers are one of the things that translate extremely well from Europe to NBA. There's lots of data supporting this.

My point: both sides keep making ridiculous statements.

P.s.: It's quite possible that Bob8 is correct. Even if Doncic is a better shooter (I wouldn't say that yet, though, we need a bigger sample), passer (he most likely is, but Dragic creates more passing opportunities with his penetrations) and rebounder (he definitely is) than Dragic, that still doesn't mean he's a better player (as of right now). Scoring is still the most important part of basketball and Dragic excels at it, at least in the NBA.

We can make dissertation about who is a better shooter. But in reality it's enough a couple of practice sessions and everybody knows who's a better shooter. I'm sure they're not even close. And it's not only Doncic who's better shooter than Dragic in slovenian team. But only shooting won't bring you far in professional basketball. That's why Dragic is in Nba and some others in second or third tier competition in Europe.

[UcanUwill]

Remember that debate we had here about Dragic before? Myself and some others here said he would be nothing more than an average player in EuroLeague. We took a ton of heat for that from NBA fans. but reality is reality. He's a lot like Giannis and Rubio - totally needs NBA rules and reffing to be effective.

Do games like this have any bearing or meaning at all? I remember Nick Calathes, at age 20, in his first game with Greek senior NT, had almost a triple double in the first half

A few days ago you were clearly arguing that Doncic’s friendly game stats don’t matter at all, or better yet don’t “have any bearing”. Now you’re trying to argue that Dragic is overrated based on one single friendly game which he pretty much half-assed. So why should friendly games count when we’re talking about Dragic, if they don’t count when we’re talking about Doncic? Ever heard of consistency? You should try it sometimes.

Also, would you mind explaining to me how come Dragic who according to you can’t play FIBA basketball, already made an All-Tournament team under FIBA rules? That was when he single-handedly eliminated Greeks from the competition, so I'm sure you remember that game. If not, let me remind you. That was the game where he completely owned an NBA scrub like Spanoulis on both sides of the floor, hanging 28, 5 and 4 on him and his team. Again, under FIBA rules and in FIBA tournament playoffs. That’s when national teams play the hardest defense and they obviously couldn’t stop Dragic.

He was also the 2nd best scorer and the 2nd most efficient point guard at the last world cup. Dragic has been really good throughout his FIBA career and the numbers clearly show that. That's if we're dealing with facts of course and not just talking out of our collective asses.

FIBA basketball naturally favors the defensive side of the game, but talent is talent wherever it plays. Dragic is good in the NBA and he's good in FIBA. He would easily be the best player in Euroleague, after all he’s clearly better than all Euroleague MVPs. The problem with Rubio and Giannis is that they still can’t shoot, but that’s not the case with Dragic. He just finished another season where he shot over 40% from three (42.7% on pull up threes).

You can't make certain NBA busts like Spanoulis look better just by trashing superior players who proved themselves in the toughest basketball competition there is. Many so called “euro legends” completely failed in the NBA, simply because they couldn’t handle the talent level. Dragic didn’t. Get over it. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you’re going to argue that Sergio Llull, Nando de Colo, Nemanja Bjelica, Segio Rodriguez or Vassilis Spanoullis (last 5 Euroleague MVPs) are better than Dragic… or Giannis… or Rubio… and eventually Doncic as well.

EDIT: Actually, based on this comment you made later…

I think Dragic would be Heurtel with a worse jumper.

…I really don’t know why I even took the time to respond. I read it after I posted this and now it’s clear to me that you’re just trolling or have never watched a single NBA game.

I stopped reading after the first two sentences. Not wasting my time.

One thing is definitely sure however from this thread's view at least........Goran Dragic is easily the most overrated basketball player in the world, and maybe even of all time.

Ha, he made completely accurate and reasonable post, and you not only respond like its complete waste of the post, you follow by your patented biggest exaggeration imaginable. Not even gonna elaborate, people should not waste on your comments, thats what they should do.

[Wildlinger]

Rebounding aside, since Doncic is a few inches taller than Dragic and will probably play a different position in NBA.

though he is an excellent rebounder for his size.

By implying that Doncic is a better rebounder than Dragic mostly because he's taller and plays a different position, you really aren't that much better, you're just on the other side of the coin. Just as you "get a good laugh" when you feel that people overrate Doncic, the other side probably laughs at statements like this, or finds them ridiculous. It's why so many people think this thread is full of Doncic hate.

You clearly misunderstood what I wrote. A 6’8 SF is naturally a better rebounder than a 6’3 PG, so the discussion about rebounding is kinda pointless, when you’re comparing those two players. But I also clearly wrote that Doncic is an excellent rebounder for his size and position. I never made that claim about Dragic. You probably missed that? The fact that you consider this completely reasonable comment an example of “Doncic hate” and a “ridiculous statement”, tells me that you unfortunately may not be capable of a rational debate when it comes to Doncic.

[Johnny Firpo]

well this thread got derailed again.

It's amazing, really, we can't have nice things.

[Wildlinger]

well this thread got derailed again.

It's amazing, really, we can't have nice things.

How exactly did it get derailed? Maybe I'm missing something, but the debate was/is still revolving primarily around Doncic. What exactly is wrong with comparing players? That's like 90% of all debates here, isn't it?