DeAndre Ayton

[CptCrunch]

Ayton is basically Towns v2 with even worse defense. Not saying that he cannot learn to play defense like Towns in his first 3 years in the NBA, but his college defense is far worse than Towns.

Both are soft finesse bigs with an overdeveloped upper body, a weak core and elite athleticism.

[doordoor123]

Ayton is basically Towns v2 with even worse defense. Not saying that he cannot learn to play defense like Towns in his first 3 years in the NBA, but his college defense is far worse than Towns.

Both are soft finesse bigs with an overdeveloped upper body, a weak core and elite athleticism.

He really doesn’t showcase anything special other than fluidity. There isn’t one move he has where I say “wow.” For me that’s a big no-no. I’m all about flashes and for me he hasn’t shown any. He hasn’t shown motor, which I’m also a big fan of and he hasn’t shown high-end athletic ability. Even in his big games I never feel like he flashes the pan/shows anything that jumps out. I’ve heard he can almost touch the top of the backboard, but I haven’t seen that in-game.

[916fan]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

I don't know if you've read this thread, but it's full of people **** on Ayton's defense... I see more criticism towards him than praise.

also, I find it a little weird to question his level of competition. He's played against in order, NC State, SMU, Purdue, UNLV, and Texas AM. That's nothing to scoff about. His "worst" college performance was a 13pt 10reb 3asts 2blk game on 4-9 from the floor. He has dominated every team.

[SportsGuy8]

If he ever "figures out" the game he could be similar to what Embiid is now but healthier. The problem is i doubt he will ever figure out the game.

Yes. Sadly this is exactly the type of reasoning/thinking that produces most of the busts. It's always players with sick physical potential, but lacking the mental aspect. Everyone always expects that it's going to improve with age, that a player is one day going to go EUREKA and "get it", but that almost never happens in a substantial way. If a player doesn't "get" the game by the end of his teens, he most likely never will.

With that said, I don't really think Ayton is going to be a bust. I simply seriously doubt he's going to end up a real star. More of a borderline All-Star, or someone putting up so-called "empty stats". He's probably going to get hyped up during his first couple seasons, put up some good numbers, but then slowly everyone is going to start realizing that he doesn't really contribute to winning.

[nybluemeadow]

If Ayton could just be Joel Embiid without the injury issues, that would be huge

[No-Man]

People need to stop comparing Ayton with Embiid, I know that it's easy cause of Jojo's success and both been large human beings, but other than that they have 0 in common and the comparison is lazy as **** and uninformative

[Ettorefm]

If Ayton could just be Joel Embiid without the injury issues, that would be huge

So superstar and HOFer? Mild expectations, huh?

[Wilfried]

I simply seriously doubt he's going to end up a real star. More of a borderline All-Star, or someone putting up so-called "empty stats". He's probably going to get hyped up during his first couple seasons, put up some good numbers, but then slowly everyone is going to start realizing that he doesn't really contribute to winning.

You mean, like KAT?

[hawkmanreturns]

All the prospects in this draft look like complimentary pieces. That isn't a convincing argument.

Now if you want to argue the importance of a center anchoring a defense and the difficulty with building with a big who can't defend then that is totally different.

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

Don't let them sway you KG. Ayton has been pretty dominant despite playing with guards who don't give him the ball as much as they should. He's dominating based on his physical tools right now, but some time with our player development staff will work wonders. I think he's still the #1 pick for the Hawks as of right now.

[kg01]

I guess that's true. Good point(first line)

It's not that he's a big who can't protect the rim. He's clueless. KAT is struggling to defend in the NBA, but he tries. He doesn't miss every rotation, he's not lost on every switch, he knows when to block and when not to (actually, that 's not entirely true)l ike ayton does. Ayton doesn't box out properly, has no feel for waiting for the perfect moment to contest, doesn't communicate on defense...

And to me, the biggest flaw of his (and other bad defenders that make me cringe) : He has no idea what tendencies are. He guards elite 3pt shooters the same way he guards slash-only guards. He doesn't direct traffic or forces guys to their weak hand, or sags off bad shooters...he just...sticks around until a shot is made.

Okafor, who is heavily criticized, has all those instincts but his motor and physical tools limit his defensive upside. He'll never be a great defender. But Ayton has it all. He reminds me of Kansas Wiggins; all the tools, lowest IQ I've seen on defense.

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

Don't let them sway you KG. Ayton has been pretty dominant despite playing with guards who don't give him the ball as much as they should. He's dominating based on his physical tools right now, but some time with our player development staff will work wonders. I think he's still the #1 pick for the Hawks as of right now.

The problem I'm having is the KAT comparisons since I've always considered KAT overrated. Hearing/seeing Ayton be as bad (or worse) as KAT defensively is troubling considering Ayton doesn't have the offensive 'game' that Towns had at this point.

That said, Ayton's physical tools are unbelievable. On the other hand, why is he not going full-Shaq on these future-accountants at the college level?

Agree Budz 'n the gang could probably develop the guy's skills. Can you really "teach" motor though?

All in all, like I said, I just have questions right now.

[Ettorefm]

Dang.

My poor Hawks are finally in the high-lotto so I came here looking for info on this Ayton dude. You have convinced me that, not only should he not be drafted, he probably shouldn't even be playing organized sports.

Geez. Does he have any redeemable qualities? Seriously, I'm sure scouts see the same deficiencies you're pointing out. Give me the other side of it. Why has he not dropped?

Don't let them sway you KG. Ayton has been pretty dominant despite playing with guards who don't give him the ball as much as they should. He's dominating based on his physical tools right now, but some time with our player development staff will work wonders. I think he's still the #1 pick for the Hawks as of right now.

The problem I'm having is the KAT comparisons since I've always considered KAT overrated. Hearing/seeing Ayton be as bad (or worse) as KAT defensively is troubling considering Ayton doesn't have the offensive 'game' that Towns had at this point.

That said, Ayton's physical tools are unbelievable. On the other hand, why is he not going full-Shaq on these future-accountants at the college level?

Agree Budz 'n the gang could probably develop the guy's skills. Can you really "teach" motor though?

All in all, like I said, I just have questions right now.

Great to see that you took my views into consideration when developing yours That's a great post you just had, those are my exact views on him.

And yes, he's worse than KAT. KAT makes bad decisions, but Ayton makes no decisions. He's just there. He doesn't have the defensive IQ to impact a game. As I said, everyone who plays basketball and takes it seriously pays attention to tendencies and the little things.

Ayton seems like he started playing basketball an year ago and nobody taught him the simple things like when to go over/under screens, directing traffic to the help, covering rotations, boxing out, not going for the block when the guy has practically already shot the ball (leaving the paint open for offensive rebounds), forcing a right handed dude to his left...I mean, that 's basic. He's absolutely clueless

Two, three switches and a ball screen and suddenly he's looking around and can't even find his own man. People don't just suddenly 'get it'

[kg01]

Don't let them sway you KG. Ayton has been pretty dominant despite playing with guards who don't give him the ball as much as they should. He's dominating based on his physical tools right now, but some time with our player development staff will work wonders. I think he's still the #1 pick for the Hawks as of right now.

The problem I'm having is the KAT comparisons since I've always considered KAT overrated. Hearing/seeing Ayton be as bad (or worse) as KAT defensively is troubling considering Ayton doesn't have the offensive 'game' that Towns had at this point.

That said, Ayton's physical tools are unbelievable. On the other hand, why is he not going full-Shaq on these future-accountants at the college level?

Agree Budz 'n the gang could probably develop the guy's skills. Can you really "teach" motor though?

All in all, like I said, I just have questions right now.

Great to see that you took my views into consideration when developing yours That's a great post you just had, those are my exact views on him.

And yes, he's worse than KAT. KAT makes bad decisions, but Ayton makes no decisions. He's just there. He doesn't have the defensive IQ to impact a game. As I said, everyone who plays basketball and takes it seriously pays attention to tendencies and the little things.

Ayton seems like he started playing basketball an year ago and nobody taught him the simple things like when to go over/under screens, directing traffic to the help, covering rotations, boxing out, not going for the block when the guy has practically already shot the ball (leaving the paint open for offensive rebounds), forcing a right handed dude to his left...I mean, that 's basic. He's absolutely clueless

Two, three switches and a ball screen and suddenly he's looking around and can't even find his own man. People don't just suddenly 'get it'

Eh, I might've lifted some things from some folks ITT.

But seriously speaking, isn't his current coach supposed to be teaching him these things? To me, if he's equally confused at the end of the season, that's a major indictment on Miller.

Full disclosure, I'm not high on Miller as a coach. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's producing bust-level NBA guys - which is another reason I have questions about Ayton at the next level.

All that said, I can see him doing well after going through our development system. The problem is it could be a multi-year process like it was with Hardaway, Jr. The other problem is, when you draft a guy 1-3 it ain't easy to stomach him having to spend a lot of time in the GLeague.

[Ettorefm]

The problem I'm having is the KAT comparisons since I've always considered KAT overrated. Hearing/seeing Ayton be as bad (or worse) as KAT defensively is troubling considering Ayton doesn't have the offensive 'game' that Towns had at this point.

That said, Ayton's physical tools are unbelievable. On the other hand, why is he not going full-Shaq on these future-accountants at the college level?

Agree Budz 'n the gang could probably develop the guy's skills. Can you really "teach" motor though?

All in all, like I said, I just have questions right now.

Great to see that you took my views into consideration when developing yours That's a great post you just had, those are my exact views on him.

And yes, he's worse than KAT. KAT makes bad decisions, but Ayton makes no decisions. He's just there. He doesn't have the defensive IQ to impact a game. As I said, everyone who plays basketball and takes it seriously pays attention to tendencies and the little things.

Ayton seems like he started playing basketball an year ago and nobody taught him the simple things like when to go over/under screens, directing traffic to the help, covering rotations, boxing out, not going for the block when the guy has practically already shot the ball (leaving the paint open for offensive rebounds), forcing a right handed dude to his left...I mean, that 's basic. He's absolutely clueless

Two, three switches and a ball screen and suddenly he's looking around and can't even find his own man. People don't just suddenly 'get it'

Eh, I might've lifted some things from some folks ITT.

But seriously speaking, isn't his current coach supposed to be teaching him these things? To me, if he's equally confused at the end of the season, that's a major indictment on Miller.

Full disclosure, I'm not high on Miller as a coach. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's producing bust-level NBA guys - which is another reason I have questions about Ayton at the next level.

All that said, I can see him doing well after going through our development system. The problem is it could be a multi-year process like it was with Hardaway, Jr. The other problem is, when you draft a guy 1-3 it ain't easy to stomach him having to spend a lot of time in the GLeague.

That's true. It's funny, but if there is one guy that would benefit a lot from going straight from HS to the pros is Ayton. I don't want him anywhere near Miller. Bud would do wonders to develop him right now, at 18. He's developing some bad habits that I'm really concerned about, and Bud/Hawks coaching staff would give him a slap on the hand right when it happened the first time. Negative reinforement right from the get go.

Also, let's be fair. It's very likely that Ayton will be much better at the end of the season. Freshman mostly are. Let's wait and see.

[reanimator]

A friend of mine swears Ayton doesn't play hard to mitigate risk of injury.
Really its a crapshoot when trying to figure out whats going through the mind of essentially a kid and what their natural disposition is or if it can be changed.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

A friend of mine swears Ayton doesn't play hard to mitigate risk of injury.
Really its a crapshoot when trying to figure out whats going through the mind of essentially a kid and what their natural disposition is or if it can be changed.

I’m on my phone so I can’t share the excerpts, but in the Ringer’s profile on Ayton, he’s quoted as saying he wants to be a shotblocker like Bamba but lacks the confidence to jump with certain guys.

I take that with a grain of salt however. Players are rarely good at diagnosing their own shortcomings, let alone fixing them. To my eye, he lacks the reflexes (mental or physical, I don’t know) to be an impact defender. He just doesn’t react to plays quickly enough.

[hawkmanreturns]

The problem I'm having is the KAT comparisons since I've always considered KAT overrated. Hearing/seeing Ayton be as bad (or worse) as KAT defensively is troubling considering Ayton doesn't have the offensive 'game' that Towns had at this point.

That said, Ayton's physical tools are unbelievable. On the other hand, why is he not going full-Shaq on these future-accountants at the college level?

Agree Budz 'n the gang could probably develop the guy's skills. Can you really "teach" motor though?

All in all, like I said, I just have questions right now.

Great to see that you took my views into consideration when developing yours That's a great post you just had, those are my exact views on him.

And yes, he's worse than KAT. KAT makes bad decisions, but Ayton makes no decisions. He's just there. He doesn't have the defensive IQ to impact a game. As I said, everyone who plays basketball and takes it seriously pays attention to tendencies and the little things.

Ayton seems like he started playing basketball an year ago and nobody taught him the simple things like when to go over/under screens, directing traffic to the help, covering rotations, boxing out, not going for the block when the guy has practically already shot the ball (leaving the paint open for offensive rebounds), forcing a right handed dude to his left...I mean, that 's basic. He's absolutely clueless

Two, three switches and a ball screen and suddenly he's looking around and can't even find his own man. People don't just suddenly 'get it'

Eh, I might've lifted some things from some folks ITT.

But seriously speaking, isn't his current coach supposed to be teaching him these things? To me, if he's equally confused at the end of the season, that's a major indictment on Miller.

Full disclosure, I'm not high on Miller as a coach. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's producing bust-level NBA guys - which is another reason I have questions about Ayton at the next level.

All that said, I can see him doing well after going through our development system. The problem is it could be a multi-year process like it was with Hardaway, Jr. The other problem is, when you draft a guy 1-3 it ain't easy to stomach him having to spend a lot of time in the GLeague.

I understand your concern but Ayton has too much talent for him to be a multi-year project. I'm also not that worried about his supposed lack of physicality. He's just trying to showcase his versatility because of the NBA's irrational infatuation with big men shooting threes. Don't forget, this time last year John Collins was considered a dinosaur because he did most of his damage in the paint. Scouts wondered how he would fit in today's NBA and I believe he slipped to us at pick #19 because of it.

[The-Power]

He's just trying to showcase his versatility because of the NBA's irrational infatuation with big men shooting threes.

I don't buy that. He's been vocal about wanting to be a stretch big before he became a college player and that's exactly how he plays now. In other words: he plays the way he wants to play.

Watch on YouTube

see here, starting at 1:28

[doordoor123]

Great to see that you took my views into consideration when developing yours That's a great post you just had, those are my exact views on him.

And yes, he's worse than KAT. KAT makes bad decisions, but Ayton makes no decisions. He's just there. He doesn't have the defensive IQ to impact a game. As I said, everyone who plays basketball and takes it seriously pays attention to tendencies and the little things.

Ayton seems like he started playing basketball an year ago and nobody taught him the simple things like when to go over/under screens, directing traffic to the help, covering rotations, boxing out, not going for the block when the guy has practically already shot the ball (leaving the paint open for offensive rebounds), forcing a right handed dude to his left...I mean, that 's basic. He's absolutely clueless

Two, three switches and a ball screen and suddenly he's looking around and can't even find his own man. People don't just suddenly 'get it'

Eh, I might've lifted some things from some folks ITT.

But seriously speaking, isn't his current coach supposed to be teaching him these things? To me, if he's equally confused at the end of the season, that's a major indictment on Miller.

Full disclosure, I'm not high on Miller as a coach. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's producing bust-level NBA guys - which is another reason I have questions about Ayton at the next level.

All that said, I can see him doing well after going through our development system. The problem is it could be a multi-year process like it was with Hardaway, Jr. The other problem is, when you draft a guy 1-3 it ain't easy to stomach him having to spend a lot of time in the GLeague.

I understand your concern but Ayton has too much talent for him to be a multi-year project. I'm also not that worried about his supposed lack of physicality. He's just trying to showcase his versatility because of the NBA's irrational infatuation with big men shooting threes. Don't forget, this time last year John Collins was considered a dinosaur because he did most of his damage in the paint. Scouts wondered how he would fit in today's NBA and I believe he slipped to us at pick #19 because of it.

Collins wasn’t shooting jumpers at all, Ayton is. They’re not in the same situation.

[hawkmanreturns]

[/quote]Collins wasn’t shooting jumpers at all, Ayton is. They’re not in the same situation.[/quote]
I was just explaining why a supposed 'dominant' post player would choose to display his midrange game and 3ptr instead of punishing guys down low. Any prospect who primarily works in the low post is viewed as obsolete for reasons that I can't fully understand.

[916fan]

Collins wasn’t shooting jumpers at all, Ayton is. They’re not in the same situation.[/quote]
I was just explaining why a supposed 'dominant' post player would choose to display his midrange game and 3ptr instead of punishing guys down low. Any prospect who primarily works in the low post is viewed as obsolete for reasons that I can't fully understand.[/quote]
Funny enough, I was a big fan of John Collins. I went to Wake Forest bball forums and some users were talking mad **** about him. Not because he sucked, but because he was their entire offense and he kept picking up dumb fouls that kept him out the game.

He's still been a foul machine, but I still like him a lot.