Luka Doncic Part III

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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1101 » by juanc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:29 pm

He was great at the end, first the pass to thompkins and then the steal and the free throws. Pao had the best defensive guy stick on him the whole game, and that is why real played 4vs4 almost the entire 4 half. Calathes never moved 0,5m away from him even if the ball was on the other side
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1102 » by Donka_fan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:31 pm

Maybe Lasso releases his chains once they get back to Madrid. One can only hope so. The number of shot he took was definatelty directed by Lasso. Odd tactical game today. He-ll take the win gladly.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1103 » by Donka_fan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:33 pm

Reyes and the team won today. Great battle ahead. Hope for 3 more games to settle this.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1104 » by lambchop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:33 pm

The-Power wrote:
lambchop wrote: He failed this test.

lambchop wrote:Panas man is so stuck to luka that theyre allowing madrid to play 4 on 4 when he's off the ball

If it worked as a coaching strategy, then how exactly did he fail?



no I don't mean it in the sense of him being a failure. He still looked very shaky and struggled pulling off his moves even when PFs were switched onto him. But yea they were hell bent on making Luka uncomfortable and imo kind of failed because of it too. Lots of silly fouls. They had him shook, but it seemed like they were expecting him to cry or something
So many people who attain the heights of power in this culture—celebrities, for instance—have to make a show of false humility and modesty, as if they got as far as they did by accident and not by ego or ambition.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1105 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:39 pm

Revived wrote:It’s funny that people are flipping out over Doncic struggling in the first 2 games of the Euro playoffs at 19 years of age but nobody cares about a 3 year NBA vet like KAT struggling in the first 2 games of the NBA playoffs at 22 years of age.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


The 14th man of Panathinaikos would be a superstar in NCAA Division I power conferences. Not a single NCAA player would even see the court in a series at this level. The double standard some people here have for European draft prospects and NCAA draft prospects is totally ludicrous.

BadWolf wrote:Anyway, he looks afraid to drive vs Singleton and Gist. He'll meet better and more athletic defenders on every drive in nba. Haven't seen him so passive anytime before.


Except that those power forwards are as athletic as anything in the NBA. In fact, they are much more athletic than many NBA power forwards, especially Gist and Gabriel.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1106 » by peja_the_legend » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
The 12th man of Panathinaikos would be a superstar in NCAA Division I power conferences. Not a single NCAA player would even see the court in a series at this level. The double standard some people here have for European draft prospects and NCAA draft prospects is totally ludicrous.



Ian Vougioukas would be a superstar in NCAA?Stop overrating the level of euroleague for gods sake

Anyway Doncic was a non factor and Real won in spite of him not because of him but i wont say anytthing more cause apparently you arent allowed to criticize the golden boy or Mods will give you a warning :roll:
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1107 » by BadWolf » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Except that those power forwards are as athletic as anything in the NBA.


I haven't watched much Euroleague last years, ever since my team faded away. But I'm seeing nba busts like Singleton, Payne, Robinson, Ayon, Thompson etc wrecking havoc this week. Color me unimpressed.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1108 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:50 pm

peja_the_legend wrote:Ian Vougioukas would be a superstar in NCAA?Stop overrating the level of euroleague for gods sake

Anyway Doncic was a non factor and Real won in spite of him not because of him but i wont say anytthing more cause apparently you arent allowed to criticize the golden boy or Mods will give you a warning :roll:


The 14th man of Panathinaikos would be a superstar in NCAA.

Their 14th man is Zach Auguste, who was in fact a big star in the ACC.

Their 15th man is Dinos Mitoglou, who was a starter in the ACC.

Their 16th man is Georgios Kalaitzakis, and he just declared for the 2018 NBA draft.

No one is overrating the level of EuroLeague. I just stated stone cold, hard facts and truth.

The level of double standards and hypocrisy here from some people as to how they talk about a EuroLeague draft prospect and a NCAA draft prospect is completely ridiculous and totally absurd. Frankly, it even seems like possible borderline xenophobia.

BadWolf wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Except that those power forwards are as athletic as anything in the NBA.


I haven't watched much Euroleague last years, ever since my team faded away. But I'm seeing nba busts like Singleton, Payne, Robinson, Ayon, Thompson etc wrecking havoc this week. Color me unimpressed.


Then why say "more athletic"? If that is your argument, then say "better players". But instead you said, "more athletic".

That's just simply not accurate. Singleton is above average athletically for a NBA power forward, probably about average for a starter.

Gist is an elite athlete for NBA standards, and Gabriel is well beyond that - he's a freak of nature level athlete for any league, anywhere.

And "wreaking havoc" - that's quite a large exaggeration.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1109 » by Bob8 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:12 pm

I saw that game differently. Doncic played exactly like he should, only team matters. I said before the series, the only chance for Real is to take advantage of their front court. 18/37 in rebounds says it all. I don’t believe that other prospects could even step on the court today. This was mans game and Doncic proved he’s a man today. That’s like the winners play.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1110 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm

Bob8 wrote:I saw that game differently. Doncic played exactly like he should, only team matters. I said before the series, the only chance for Real is to take advantage of their front court. 18/37 in rebounds says it all. I don’t believe that other prospects could even step on the court today. This was mans game and Doncic proved he’s a man today. That’s like the winners play.


Yeah, just play the normal defense on Calathes, and use Reyes around the basket more, as Panathinaikos has no one that is strong enough (except Vougioukas) to keep him off the glass. Reyes...he's the best 38 year old player I've ever seen. This man's level of conditioning is incredible. I actually think he's better now than he was 10 years ago, although he plays limited minutes.

And no need at all to force Doncic on offense. Real has a lot of very good scorers, and they need to be a balanced team on offense. No 19 year old anywhere is going to carry a EuroLeague team at this stage of the season. So trying to force Doncic on offense makes no sense. They need to play team oriented and balanced on offense.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1111 » by DaddyCool19 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm

Isn't it praiseable that Doncic can play really well against grown ass former players and former 1st and 2nd round picks? That means those guys were really good college players.

I think thats more impressive than playing against dudes around your age (and don't forget about the 6'6-6'7 bigs), while most of them won't even make it to the pros.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1112 » by XTraderXL » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:18 pm

Well, which prospect would hit all 8 FTs in an enviroment like this in a win or go home game?

Luka played a perfect game in the last 15min. He did what he needed to do to win. He was making the correct and timely passes, he streched the floor without even shooting the ball, was 100% on FTs, has a steal at the end that sealed the game. He was standing in the corner so that his team mates had more space on offense and could score at will. I am usually critical of Laso but this was genious.

He also played better and better as the game went on, in the first half I felt like he is scared to handle the ball. At the end of the game he was a different player, he toyed with Calathes in one of the last possessions. A smart, smart game from him, congrats!!
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1113 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:21 pm

DaddyCool19 wrote:Isn't it praiseable that Doncic can play really well against grown ass former players and former 1st and 2nd round picks? That means those guys were really good college players.

I think thats more impressive than playing against dudes around your age (and don't forget about the 6'6-6'7 bigs), while most of them won't even make it to the pros.


Like I said, the 14th man of Panathinaikos was a big star in the ACC (maybe the best conference in NCAA), and even their 15th man was a starter in the ACC.

Yet we have some people constantly comparing this level of competition to the NCAA.......it's really gotten old and tiresome at this point.

XTraderXL wrote:Well, which prospect would hit all 8 FTs in an enviroment like this in a win or go home game?

Luka played a perfect game in the last 15min. He did what he needed to do to win. He was making the correct and timely passes, he streched the floor without even shooting the ball, was 100% on FTs, has a steal at the end that sealed the game. He was standing in the corner so that his team mates had more space on offense and could score at will. I am usually critical of Laso but this was genious.

He also played better and better as the game went on, in the first half I felt like he is scared to handle the ball. At the end of the game he was a different player, he toyed with Calathes in one of the last possessions. A smart, smart game from him, congrats!!


Laso can come into games with some bad initial game plans and he isn't very good at in-game adjustments either. So if both happen, that's bad for his team. However, he is really great at three things...

1. Taking away the other team's key scorer.

2. Getting the absolute maximum of offense out of any lead ball handler that is a capable scorer (Llull, Doncic), probably because he was a point guard as a player.

3. Coaching offense in general - I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, to me he's the best offensive coach in EuroLeague. Not the best overall, but without any question the best offensive coach.

Personally, I think he's a better version of D'Antoni. He's basically D'Antoni on offense, but he also gets his team to play hard and physical and to play good defense. He's a better coach for me than Messina and Blatt, that the NBA is so enamored with for some reason.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1114 » by lavta » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:36 pm

As a poster who wrote that Nick Calathes dominated Luka Doncic in Game 1 and it matters, two days ago... I think you are being a little harsh for today, maybe?

Laso responded really well, disciplined effort & execution on D, tighter close-outs made Real's defense much better. Also fixed the wrong ways of defending Calathes and applied the strategy I've been talking about since during game 1. Pressure up on him when he has the ball so he doesn't execute passes with ease and dish out 16 damn assists, but go under his PnRs and pack the paint. That's the proven strategy against Calathes, not defending him further back at every moment of the game. That's the sole reason why Calathes' performance dropped even though he still was good, penetrating fruitfully. Even made a 3 at the beginning.

So after RM fixed their defense, it immediately became a defensive game. I insisted on that PAO's uber athletic and superbly executed defense wasn't going away. RM bigs put pressure on the boards and it was bigs' game honestly. Real Madrid offense scored with their veterans' plays and big men creation out of low/mid/high post. Gist fouling out really killed PAO. Also Mike James is a great shot maker, but he shouldn't be making late game decisions. If the pull-up is not there for Mike James, just reset the offense back to Calathes' hands.

It was a super physical, gritty game with elite defensive execution and bigs were key. You just can't possibly expect to run simple spread PnR sets and hope for offensive success against this PAO defense. And I mean they run it too... But both defenses were elite tonight and PAO defense has been incredible at overplaying the helps, so when the passes get out to shooters. They just have incredible awareness of shooters' locations, sprint back with aggressive close-outs, then one of the bigs came out to show on the shooter attacking that close-out a little far from the rim. Giving that mid-range pull-ups free, and even running up and contesting those pull-ups when they happen. So spread PnR isn't just a useful way to attack that defensive strategy. Body movement out of high/mid/low post creation fits better this kind of a game. And that's what happened. It was fruitful for Real Madrid's offense.

So because of the nature of the game, I was more bothered with Doncic's lazy effort on defense than his offense, until he upped his defense in the 4th. It was a fine game from him, targeting Payne and then the pass to the corner 3, clutch FTs, and good 4th quarter defense. He also kept the ball flow going out of post creation and made some nice passes throughout the game. Which wasn't necessarily the case in game 1. As opposed to Causeur, who is just crumbling disastrously on defense and has nothing to provide for on offense because this kind of a game and this PAO defense just negate his offensive strengths. Same is valid for Doncic as well, but Doncic has definitely been better on both ends than Causeur.

If you look at who was productive tonight for RM: Rudy, Carroll, Ayon, Reyes. All over 30, two of them had gone through hundreds of big games in their careers, other two have played in a lot of big games as well. They've gone through super physical, gritty games that require war on boards, tight discipline on defense all game and body movement on offense instead of rhythm sets. Doncic hasn't yet. He's a 19 year old Euro prospect whose playing style favors current NBA trends, under current NBA officiating rules & norms. Not that he's not competitive and gritty himself. Not many 19 year olds dive for a loose ball in late game at OAKA in a playoff series so that their heads end up under the chair of the bench.

So the series go back to Madrid. 3rd game there might fit Doncic's game better.

CSKA - Khimki is a series where you can play spread PnR all game. And they do btw, because both of those teams' offense and also their defense allow that sort of games in that series. Oly - Zalgiris is a series of an elite defensive team having creative issues on offense against an upped defense in the playoffs whose offense is also just consistently and unyieldingly executing their stuff all game, every minute. Fener - Baskonia is a series where the favorite is taking advantage of the underdog's injuries with diverse offense, control of pace, playoff-level focus on defense while the underdog is well-coached and keep coming back at the game with ball flow on offense despite injuries and gives effort on defense despite the favorites targeting their defensive weaknesses. I always love how diverse the structures of different playoff series can get in EuroLeague. And norms are set for PAO-RM. These defenses will be great throughout the series. But I can see an outcome for the 3rd game where it fits Doncic's strengths better so he plays as the primary creator and then we can see how he does against this PAO defense. That game might not be as gritty even if as physical, and might not favor bigs as much. However if that outcome happens for Game 3, I'd expect Game 4 to be similar to Game 2.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1115 » by Kool_Name_Right » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:42 am

I feel like most teams will avoid drafting the euro-guard with guys like Ayton out there.

Memphis tho would be going hard for Doncic. He'd fit in well with Gasol and Conley and be their wing of the future.

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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1116 » by DryPaint » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:47 am

Mirotic12 wrote:The 14th man of Panathinaikos would be a superstar in NCAA Division I power conferences. Not a single NCAA player would even see the court in a series at this level. The double standard some people here have for European draft prospects and NCAA draft prospects is totally ludicrous.

BadWolf wrote:Anyway, he looks afraid to drive vs Singleton and Gist. He'll meet better and more athletic defenders on every drive in nba. Haven't seen him so passive anytime before.


Except that those power forwards are as athletic as anything in the NBA. In fact, they are much more athletic than many NBA power forwards, especially Gist and Gabriel.


seems your definition of college superstar is totaly wrong, since zach augustine of course is not one - a college superstar or star.
he was a 4 year player, averaging 14 ppg in his fourth season. the true superstars of the ncaa are gone after 1 year and or the 7th pick in the nba draft, or are very rare and few playing for 4 seasons, but then get drafted at nr.1 - tim duncan.

you seem to think your view on the europe - nba thing is normal or the norm, but it is not. by far.
the nba the highest form of basketball. and even the thing that kobe bryant mentioned - that euro ball is more physical, flies out the window when the nba playoffs come around.

gist, gabriel and singleton are all ok athletes, but all of them undersized for the nba game. it seemed to me that singleton could be the one making a career in the nba with the wizards, but it didnt seem to last long. each of them has big flaws that dont allow them to play on the highest level of basketball - the nba.

i am thinking that doncic will have a fine nba career. and will be worthy of the nr. 2 pick this year.
i think he would do great in memphis. conley and gasol are non ego guys, who would embrace him right away, and the team would have instant results, as they were clearly flipping the tanking switch at some point in the season.
the parsons experiment is done now, so luka would be playing the 3 spot and would also initiate from time to time.

if he goes to atlanta - meh, dallas - dennis smith jr. country now - meh , suns are bookers team - meh.

i see doncic getting this seasons numbers next year. but i dont see the developmental curve rise at such rate in the next years after that. doncic has a mans body for 2 years now. meaning he is way ahead of giannis when he came into the league, so he is able to play against grown men at this point. you can mock the statement, and say YEP HE PEAKED AT 19, RIGHT. im not saying that. but i am saying that guys like christian laettner - golden boy of duke ball, and the great white hope then, played mature body and mind wise beyond their years when 18-19-20, but the counter effect is they game didnt not get to a much higher form. he had the best stats his first 2 seasons.

when talking about doncic, you are talking about a player who is worthy of the nr.2 pick, has a very high / cant miss floor, but a questionable ceiling. you saw a glimpse of nba length / speed guarding him the past 2 games, and the side to side and step back shots wont cut it for 82 games next year. the often used argument that the nba doesnt have camping in the lane and the court will be open to him is only partialy true. watch a nba playoff game and show me a few uncontested or weak contested layups during a half court set offense. the nba is bigger and quicker - but not smarter. the bigger / quicker part he didnt face in europe as the san emeterios of the world are not on any nba teams radar.

he is nothing we have see form a 19 year old before. producing in bunches, leading, not just hype. but he has his limitations, wich could very well prevent him from reaching superstar heights in the nba. he could become a do it all very good, but nothing great type of nba starter. but fact is, he cant bust, we are already past that.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1117 » by 916fan » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:20 am

...did someone just say Zach Auguste was a superstar in the NCAA? How's that possible when he wasn't even the best player on his team?
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1118 » by saphan » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:00 am

Image

To me Luka looks bigger lately. Reyes is 206 cm (6'9'') right? This picture is not the best one to compare them, but here I would say he has similar height as Reyes, or maybe he's just a little bit shorter (angle and Filipe not standing straight).
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1119 » by RookieStar » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:28 am

Who are those scrubs Aguste and Mitlo -something? Im a Duke fan and we are in the ACC and I dont think i know who they are. Superstar in the NCAA or even just ACC? okaaaaayyyy
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1120 » by JPF » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:36 am

Image
One thing is for certain, that Dončič has grown since 2 years ago.
I wouldn't be all that focused on height when it comes to Luka. He has somewhat short neck and therefor good height vs. wingspan/standingspan ratio. That's very obvious when you look at his elevation with some of his blocked shots. He normaly doesn't jump that high, while having a nice reach nevertheless.

I wouldn't call that a good game from him. Not from statistics perspective, but from his lack of defensive effort in the larger part of the game. He was effectively shut down in offense, but I do wonder at what price, since his guy rarely came out helping on other Real players that had more room to operate.
The attention Luka is facing right now is flattering for just about any 19 years old, rotating 3-4 guards on him to keep him tired, getting bumped all the time, trying to make him lose his temper. Not meant as an excuse, just as an observation. Overall he should benefit from all that attention he is getting in the long run.

In the second part of the season, his quickness is once again worrying me a bit more than in september, when he was somehow beating good athletes of the dribble, while now he seems somewhat slower. I'm not knowledgable enough about conditioning to make a judgement what's happening there, but it's quite obvious.

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