Luka Doncic Part III

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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1161 » by BlueSan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am

Kind of funny how Luka still says he ll decide on draft after the season.

Um well to enter the draft he has to decide till the end of this weekend rather so yeah... lol
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1162 » by lavta » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:17 am

daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft, and you can take that to the bank. Already count 5 likely, Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval. Exactly how many guys in Euroleague are going to make it?

Yup


I've seen this argument before in Doncic threads. Just wanna quickly respond and I'll catch up with CLE@IND later on timeouts. I'm assuming you're open to discussion and revision of your positions. And if not, then please don't make this particular argument again if you aren't gonna have a counter-argument for it. So... this is actually a horrible take. But a very understandable and natural one for people who don't know much about EuroLeague.

There aren't many prospects coming out of Euroleague because 19-20 year old players aren't good enough for Euroleague. Not yet. I won't talk about Euroleague's specific qualities again and again to explain this. But these kids aren't trusted in these situations. Forget busts and average players, merely above average players, below average players. Just look at All-Star level NBA players who have played in Europe.

Dirk Nowitzki, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Tony Parker, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Pau Gasol, he was playing in Euroleague.
Manu Ginobili, not only he wasn't playing in EL, he was playing in Italian 2nd division when he was 21. 3 years later he went to NBA as a top 3 player in all of Euroball. That's the difference between an age 21 season and age 24 season.
Marc Gasol, he was in Euroleague, somewhat playing.
Goran Dragic, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Giannis Antetokounmpo, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Mehmet Okur wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Andrei Kirilenko... well, for him it's complicated but let's count him, sure, he was playing in EL
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, wasn't playing in EL
Peja was playing in EL
Divac was playing in EL
Porzingis wasn't playing in EL.

Some weak All Stars there, sure, but they are All Star selection. Wanted to select an objective criteria, not that I give value to AS selections. So these are NBA All-Stars who were playing in Europe in their 18-21 age range. It doesn't account for:

a) Euros going to NCAA. They might choose to go to NCAA believing in a better developmental program compared to EL teams who are looking to win every day (which is actually my entire argument here) but if say, Lauri Markkanen, would be as crucial as Luka Doncic to an EL team, he's not going to NCAA solely on the basis that he is as a player, focuses on the big competition in front of him, instead of living his career as a prospect.

b) These are only All-Stars, the gap between an NBA All-Star (even the worst one ever in that particular season) and a "draft selection worthy prospect" is huge. As an NBA draft pick could end up being a bust and spend a 8 year career until retirement in Belgium, G-League and Mexico. That simply could happen to one of the names you listed (I'm not making that argument about someone specific from your list btw, at this point almost everyone in this thread probably knows that I don't know a thing about NCAA prospects). Whereas, I used past examples, so these were "where was this guy as a 18-21 age player?" for actual all-stars. If we were to count other Euros who are/have been good but not actual all-stars, then the number of non-Euroleague players at age 18-21 would increase. But I didn't do that. No, let's look at actual all-star selections and even then how many of those were EL players as prospects.

5 players out of a 13 player list were in the EuroLeague. These 19, 20 year old kids aren't playing in Euroleague simply because they can't. '15 Kristaps Porzingis was alright as Sevilla's starting center. No way he would sniff minutes in a Euroleague team. No EL coach would play that version of Kristaps. Same for Nikola Jokic in his last year at Mega. And Giannis Antetokoumpo. Anyone who wasn't already in EL.

So anyone who makes the "X College team will have Y draft selections, that team alone will pass EL's selection number" argument either

a) Doesn't understand Euroleague isn't a league where you can develop young players, afford them minutes, let them make mistakes, focus on their physical/mental/skillset developments as prospects. Even in the NBA, a tanking team can do this for its young players late season, or rebuilding teams from the start of the season. That just is impossible in EL. Domestic leagues, possible. EL, nah. You don't play if you're not gonna contribute to win probability. Age doesn't matter. EL is the league where you should play Jarrett Jack over Ntilikina if the former is having a better game/week/stretch than the latter.

b) Development for any player anywhere due to getting older every season at early 20s is still huge.

or both.

Yes, Doncic is having bad games, has some concerning structural issues, he's actually going through tough games due to those structural issues right now, in this very season. And as I said earlier, performance in EL playoffs should matter a lot for scouts. But his biggest two arguments basically come down to:

a) how great he is at this age to be given this role. It's historically unusual.

b) his jump as a player from 2016-17 to 2017-18. Which essentially is the biggest thing. Being an EL rotation player at age 17 and then not staying flat, and improving significantly is even more unusual historically.

Finally, I do agree in general with @ucanuwill here about mirotic's rhetoric and I get the vibe from every post I read from him (which is half of the posts I see from him) that he would flip the narrative on things according to his agenda. Which is absurd. Because his biased EuroLeague stance is actually essentially not understanding how much Euroleague is different from the NBA and that's why it's great. Like, I think he's acting like EL is the 2nd division of NBA and thinks it's a much better 2nd division in terms of quality than the consensus while that's not even the case. EL is so different from the NBA, it can't be the 2nd division to it. That's why I hate the "2nd best league in the world" title as well, even though it's technically true. But if EL was the 2nd division, and if it was similar and comparable to NBA, why would anybody watch it really? Millions of people watch EL in any season, why would they do that if it's similar to NBA? NBA is a much higher level of competition then, nobody would watch Euroleague. I personally know hundreds of people prefering EL and Euroball over NBA, are those people mad? How many people would prefer Spanish 2nd league football to La Liga? How much different Euroball & Euroleague from NBA is a bigger gap than how much of a higher level of competition NBA is from Euroleague. I hope some of you understand this.

But... as a poster who neither reads nor comments NCAA parts of this thread, because I know nothing about NCAA basketball; suggesting an amateur basketball organization and amateur basketball players are comparable to EuroLeague in terms of quality of the competition is significantly more illogical than anything mirotic could be writing with a super biased agenda & a super wrong methodology of comparing players/teams/leagues that end up hurting the image of the league he's trying to stan for.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1163 » by Mulhollanddrive » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:53 am

3 shots in 26 minutes in game 2.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1164 » by BadWolf » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:15 am

lavta wrote:Goran Dragic, wasn't playing in Euroleague.


He was
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1165 » by Johnny Firpo » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:32 am

Alatan wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:
Alatan wrote:And the excuses have started.

I mean, if you are coming here with an agenda, of course you are going to find the posts that justify the opinion you already had before your opened the thread.


I come here to discuss basketball and all i encounter is exaggerations, wishful thinking and blind optimism. Although there are posters that discuss openly, criticism towards Doncic is looked down upon as hating by a significant group of fanboys.

Someone mentioned before but if Doncic fails to live up to this ridiculous hype as most likely he will, it will have such a big backlash on European basketball that it will turn down a great number of young athletes from even trying in the sport. If the "wonderboy" couldnt make an impact why should they even try. That annoys me greatly because i think that there is much more basketball talent in Europe than it is thought and Doncic is nothing special.

The average height in the Dinaric region of the Balkans is above 6'1'' for men. In those 10 or so million of men there is at least a couple of talents of Dragic level but many of them go for soccer of volleyball. Since im a big basketball fan it hurts me to see all that potential wasted and i fear that Doncic's failure will set the region back again.


The second part is okay, I somewhat agree, basketball is still far from being the most popular sport in Europe, or maybe even the second most popular (although it probably is on average). However, I definitely feel Doncic will be alright. He may not ever become a superstar, but at worst, he is still going to be a good player. Look at what Bogdanovic is doing right now, as someone who is a lot less athletic than Doncic. He actually guards Lebron well in this series, and just scored 30. People underestimate how good offenses are now. Look at how many points the teams score, the pace and space era simply unlocked team offenses, and there is nothing the defenses can do now, because the offensive schemes are simply too good. Now put someone like Doncic in that league, with one of the highest basketball IQs the sport has ever seen, and one of the most skilled teenagers ever, and you realize there is very little chance he completely fails. His floor is high, and I think most posters who think differently, do so because they have an agenda. Simply because the opinion that he will be a huge bust does not make any sense if you take a look at the current era of NBA basketball, and know Doncic's skillset.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1166 » by UcanUwill » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:35 am

daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft


I already explained how this is clueless and dumb. You think Euroleague does not have 5 players who are NBA caliber? Just because NCAA has more players that will be drafted by the NBA, doesnt mean they have more NBA talent. They have more NBA prospect for sure, but thats not the same. Euroleague is a veteran league, top players not in the NBA who played their way to top 16 non NBA teams in the world. Yes, most of these players went undrafted back in the day. or got drafted but never came to the league, but that doesnt mean that they didnt improve and became NBA caliber. Draft only has 60 picks, you cant draft every single player in the world who will become good one day. College has more NBA draft picks, because these guys are teenagers, yes, USA has far more NBA caliber prospects every year, but thats irrelevant for Euroleague, which is vet league. If all Euroleague players were exactly same caliber as they are now, but were 19-20 years old, 90% of the Euroleague would get drafted. Just look at European players who do get drafted. Hezonja and Bender were equivalent of AAA all Americans, and they did got drafted by the NBA. Bender got drafted, by your logic he is the only player in Europe that was NBA caliber? He couldn't even sniff Euroleague level of comopetition, Hezonja was barely relevant there, Ntlikina was barely relevant on a team thats not even in Euroleague. Dragan Bender was drafted, and now is in the NBA, is he even an Euroleague starter quality player now, I am not even sure about that. Trevor Duval is gonna make, so you think he is currently better than someone like Huertel or De Colo or SLoukas even. Get real. Yes, Euroleague is far worse than NBA, but to believe college has more NBA level of competition is just ignorant and clueless.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1167 » by daoneandonly » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:16 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft


I already explained how this is clueless and dumb. You think Euroleague does not have 5 players who are NBA caliber? Just because NCAA has more players that will be drafted by the NBA, doesnt mean they have more NBA talent. They have more NBA prospect for sure, but thats not the same. Euroleague is a veteran league, top players not in the NBA who played their way to top 16 non NBA teams in the world. Yes, most of these players went undrafted back in the day. or got drafted but never came to the league, but that doesnt mean that they didnt improve and became NBA caliber. Draft only has 60 picks, you cant draft every single player in the world who will become good one day. College has more NBA draft picks, because these guys are teenagers, yes, USA has far more NBA caliber prospects every year, but thats irrelevant for Euroleague, which is vet league. If all Euroleague players were exactly same caliber as they are now, but were 19-20 years old, 90% of the Euroleague would get drafted. Just look at European players who do get drafted. Hezonja and Bender were equivalent of AAA all Americans, and they did got drafted by the NBA. Bender got drafted, by your logic he is the only player in Europe that was NBA caliber? He couldn't even sniff Euroleague level of comopetition, Hezonja was barely relevant there, Ntlikina was barely relevant on a team thats not even in Euroleague. Dragan Bender was drafted, and now is in the NBA, is he even an Euroleague starter quality player now, I am not even sure about that. Trevor Duval is gonna make, so you think he is currently better than someone like Huertel or De Colo or SLoukas even. Get real. Yes, Euroleague is far worse than NBA, but to believe college has more NBA level of competition is just ignorant and clueless.


You said it, at some point all these vets were eligible to be drafted and werent. But let's use your other premise, okay vet league, if they were so damn good don't you think NBA teams would be knocking at their door with lucrative offers? Especially the guys in their mid 20s or so? But they dont, because if you do you get Juan Carlos Navarro, Rudy Fernendez, and my favorite, the depiction of a bum, Antoine Rigadeau
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1168 » by daoneandonly » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:21 pm

realEAST wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
realEAST wrote:
No matter how far some of his claims are - and it really is just a few - they are still far closer zo rwal depiction of things, as well as they are being backed up with at least some amount of clear statstical data, along watching experience.

I think reading comprehension is problem for significant amount of people (not meaning you) here - let's just take this Zach Auguste example - Mirotic said he would NOW be superstar in NCAA - and as mobile big who improved skill level considerably since his NCAA days, when he was 14 and 8 player it is quite plausibile claim - yet most posts referred to it as him saying Auguste WAS college superstar. Not Mirotic fault at all.

He has tendancy to go overboard from time to time, but lately in Doncic thread he is pretty reasonable.


I am going from years of experience of reading his posts. Guys, if next year Doncic struggles in the NBA, and some NBA fans make it about Eurolague and how week it realatively is, you dont think he will come out, completely change his stance and say how Doncic wasn't even that great in Euroleague? You could say I just making this up and putting words in his mouth, but I have seen him do it, thats what he does all the time, he is here just to lurk Euroleague based threads and preach how strong Euroleague is, man is a preacher.


Mine is limited to two years, but still got the similar picture of him. Still, most of the things he claimed recently, in this thread, are on place. One thing I learnt here: extreme stances on one side provoke the same response from the other, even with a rational poster.
Of course, I am not even mentioning newest trend - arguing things that were never said.


Except he claims many Euro guys don't pan out in the NBA because the coach has a bias against Euro players. Yet i brought up Antoine Rigadeau in Dallas, who was putrid, and how Dal with Dirk clearly has no prejudice. Yet the response, you're going on ignore, yeah!
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1169 » by burek3 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:48 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft


I already explained how this is clueless and dumb. You think Euroleague does not have 5 players who are NBA caliber? Just because NCAA has more players that will be drafted by the NBA, doesnt mean they have more NBA talent. They have more NBA prospect for sure, but thats not the same. Euroleague is a veteran league, top players not in the NBA who played their way to top 16 non NBA teams in the world. Yes, most of these players went undrafted back in the day. or got drafted but never came to the league, but that doesnt mean that they didnt improve and became NBA caliber. Draft only has 60 picks, you cant draft every single player in the world who will become good one day. College has more NBA draft picks, because these guys are teenagers, yes, USA has far more NBA caliber prospects every year, but thats irrelevant for Euroleague, which is vet league. If all Euroleague players were exactly same caliber as they are now, but were 19-20 years old, 90% of the Euroleague would get drafted. Just look at European players who do get drafted. Hezonja and Bender were equivalent of AAA all Americans, and they did got drafted by the NBA. Bender got drafted, by your logic he is the only player in Europe that was NBA caliber? He couldn't even sniff Euroleague level of comopetition, Hezonja was barely relevant there, Ntlikina was barely relevant on a team thats not even in Euroleague. Dragan Bender was drafted, and now is in the NBA, is he even an Euroleague starter quality player now, I am not even sure about that. Trevor Duval is gonna make, so you think he is currently better than someone like Huertel or De Colo or SLoukas even. Get real. Yes, Euroleague is far worse than NBA, but to believe college has more NBA level of competition is just ignorant and clueless.


You said it, at some point all these vets were eligible to be drafted and werent. But let's use your other premise, okay vet league, if they were so damn good don't you think NBA teams would be knocking at their door with lucrative offers? Especially the guys in their mid 20s or so? But they dont, because if you do you get Juan Carlos Navarro, Rudy Fernendez, and my favorite, the depiction of a bum, Antoine Rigadeau


But they do. I mean, true, it's not like there are 30 players every year that (re)enter the league across the ocean, but tehy definitely do get offers like that.

Unfair statement in regards to the Euroleague-NCAA level... 26-32yr old men in the Euroleague always have advantage over 19-23 old youngsters from any part of the world. Experience and physical development matter a lot. Luka Dončić clearly is an outlier in this regard.

Compare yourself to the 5 year younger version. I know I would kick my younger version's as s all over the place in basketball.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1170 » by UcanUwill » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:52 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft


I already explained how this is clueless and dumb. You think Euroleague does not have 5 players who are NBA caliber? Just because NCAA has more players that will be drafted by the NBA, doesnt mean they have more NBA talent. They have more NBA prospect for sure, but thats not the same. Euroleague is a veteran league, top players not in the NBA who played their way to top 16 non NBA teams in the world. Yes, most of these players went undrafted back in the day. or got drafted but never came to the league, but that doesnt mean that they didnt improve and became NBA caliber. Draft only has 60 picks, you cant draft every single player in the world who will become good one day. College has more NBA draft picks, because these guys are teenagers, yes, USA has far more NBA caliber prospects every year, but thats irrelevant for Euroleague, which is vet league. If all Euroleague players were exactly same caliber as they are now, but were 19-20 years old, 90% of the Euroleague would get drafted. Just look at European players who do get drafted. Hezonja and Bender were equivalent of AAA all Americans, and they did got drafted by the NBA. Bender got drafted, by your logic he is the only player in Europe that was NBA caliber? He couldn't even sniff Euroleague level of comopetition, Hezonja was barely relevant there, Ntlikina was barely relevant on a team thats not even in Euroleague. Dragan Bender was drafted, and now is in the NBA, is he even an Euroleague starter quality player now, I am not even sure about that. Trevor Duval is gonna make, so you think he is currently better than someone like Huertel or De Colo or SLoukas even. Get real. Yes, Euroleague is far worse than NBA, but to believe college has more NBA level of competition is just ignorant and clueless.


You said it, at some point all these vets were eligible to be drafted and werent. But let's use your other premise, okay vet league, if they were so damn good don't you think NBA teams would be knocking at their door with lucrative offers? Especially the guys in their mid 20s or so? But they dont, because if you do you get Juan Carlos Navarro, Rudy Fernendez, and my favorite, the depiction of a bum, Antoine Rigadeau


These guys do get offers, but NBA GM's like familiarity, thats why they rather give Ian Mahimhi a terrible 64 million dollar contract, than matching Euro offers for some other bigmen who is probably not that much worse. That familiarity comes into play even when they look at Euro leagues. Like how many times we heard NBA teams being interested in Kyrylo Fesenko, an absolute scrub of Euroleague player, but the guy played in the league, therefore NBA GMs are familiar with him, so they look at him. Sasha Vujacic was trash Euroleague player just recently, but he still managed to get back into the league, because Phil Jackson...

But we see random Euro guys make it every year, like Daniel Theis in Boston, he wasn't anything special in Europe, but Celtics thought he is worth it, and offered him a decent contract. Same with Davis Bertans, PJ Tucker, Cedi Osman out of the top of my head. They all were at best average Euroleague players and they are now in the NBA. Kuzminskas didn't stick, but was the same thing. You cant believe these are the only players who can get into the league out of Europe.

NBA GM job is kinda a joke, at least compared to like Euroleague GM. NBA GMs basically just trading and signing players out of that same league, hardest part of NBA GM is probably the draft, because you have to actually evaluate players who never played in your league, just played against worse type of competition. In Europe, thats basically GMs job all the time. Euroleague team GM has to constantly find good pieces out of different leagues, lesser leagues, college graduates, G leaguers and junior players.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1171 » by lavta » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:59 pm

BadWolf wrote:
lavta wrote:Goran Dragic, wasn't playing in Euroleague.


He was


Not at age 18, 19, 20. Partly in age @21 season. Might be counted if you push the edges of the 18-21 criteria, but it'll also work well with how vast age-to-age improvement at early 20s still is, argument.

daoneandonly wrote: But let's use your other premise, okay vet league, if they were so damn good don't you think NBA teams would be knocking at their door with lucrative offers? Especially the guys in their mid 20s or so? But they dont, because if you do you get Juan Carlos Navarro, Rudy Fernendez, and my favorite, the depiction of a bum, Antoine Rigadeau


NBA front offices really aren't that smart in terms of this though. They were offering Rudy Fernandez a contract couple years ago during that FA craziness. Just because Rudy had a fine track record and the information with regards to Euro players are limited to "He was fine here, he's still in EL, in Real Madrid. We might have an edge here, let's offer a vet min". Rudy was done by then as a player. Like, done. To be fair to him, he had a mini-revival this season and it's really surprising. But that only shows how agent-executive relations and lack of information by NBA front offices play a part in Euro signings.

Going back to my favourite analogy, your arguments basically come down to "This guy that made a SF in a ATP 500 clay tournament sucked and got eliminated in the first round of Wimbledon, so he sucks as a tennis player". That's an outlandish statement. Euro to NBA translations are always wacky. A lot of overachievers and underachievers. Who would have guessed Cajasol's starting center would have a fine rookie year? Like, actually didn't suck like most NBA rookies do and was a fine player his first year? That's not easy to guess but totally in line with many historical examples of Euroball to NBA translations.

Who would have guessed Dario Saric would be the player he is in the NBA while Bjelica is the player he is? Honestly, probably me. Bjelica was at least two tiers better than Saric in their last years in Europe and that's generous to Dario. One is a lottery pick who 76ers executives learn things about, keep themselves updated when he was in Turkey, try to use him effective. The other is just a signing of an actual Euroleague MVP an executive thought he had an edge with, while having no idea who he is as a character, having no idea what his actual strengths are on the court. Is it really Bjelica's fault he had to work with two coaches who have no idea how to use him and go by the Euro stereotypes like "Ah, so he's a stretch 4, let's make him a stretch 4 in the 2nd unit". Bjelica told once the press that Thibs doesn't allow him to dribble because Thibs' fear of TOVs. Really, the best passer on your team, a guy who can break down the defense from the post and from 4/5 PnRs and close-outs? Whereas Andrew Wiggins is allowed as many TOVs as he wants because he's a lottery pick the FO & coaching staff tried to learn about. And Bjelica still had a good stint as a starting SF. The dude played out of position and he was taken from his comfort zone in terms of his strengths. Still was productive in an emergency role just because of talent. So what does that say about Saric and Bjelica? Is Saric really a much better player? Or there are many factors why a Euro can over or underachieve in the NBA? How is a solid starter level NBA player on a good playoff team could be worse than an average 2nd unit stretch 4? Because Euroball and NBA are different & because MIN has no idea how to use a talent they have on the roster. It's the same thing as a winner of a whatever ATP 500 clay court tournament making to round 3 of Wimbledon whereas the semifinalist of that clay tournament makes it to QF of Wimbledon. You can't use Wimbledon/NBA as the only parameter of evaluation here.

This entire Saric-Bjelica example is why I'm quite high on Doncic's floor as an NBA player. He would have an always-high Euroball player chance of not working out in the NBA if he wouldn't be a lottery pick. But NBA teams value lottery picks highly while having no idea about seasoned Euroball players at all. They cater to those picks and try to understand their games, use them rightly and nurture their games. It's the strongest argument of why Doncic's low-end outcomes are still high.

Either be willing to revise positions and stop with repetitive NBA exceptionalist arguments or honestly you deserve mirotic-like answers where he makes Euroball exceptionalist arguments. Because you have received many logical counter arguments to your repetitive posts and you keep derailing the thread with same stubborn arguments that have been countered by many different posters already. And I don't really understand if you're so set on your positions that why do you follow this thread? Let alone sending posts filled with useless takes again and again. I used to somewhat follow previous Doncic threads because there was unique information, valid criticism by people who are low on Doncic, etc. Now all of those posters with valuable takes/info seem to be gone from this thread. And pardon me but I blame the trolls and other posters with set positions and/or biased agendas. Every time, I check to see if there are valuable posts still, I have to scroll through many posts by these posters instead now. Which wasn't the case earlier in Doncic threads.

edit: A better example came from @ucanuwill. Better than Rudy Fernandez example. When Sasha Vujacic signed with Knicks, he had a bad season at a relegation fighting team in Turkish League. Then Baskonia (an EL team) made an emergency signing with him towards the end of the season. He was disastrously bad. Wasn't actually a Euroleague player. Offseason, Knicks signed him. Really shows you how NBA front offices are clueless with regards to Euroball (except maybe Nuggets & Nets due to Rafal Juc, Trajan Langdon and Arturas Karnisovas). They signed a below-Eurocup level player because he did okay as a SG in 2nd units once. The opportunities and understanding and good will provided to '15 Sasha Vujacic isn't something actual Euroball legends could find in the NBA in many historical examples.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1172 » by UcanUwill » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:18 pm

And whats wrong with Rudy Fernandez? Rudy Fernandez was NBA caliber player, but after that injury or whatever hapopened to him, he lost a bit of his touch. And he also has hot and cold distraction, one week he would have said how he likes his position and the other week he would say he wants go back to Spain. If he had his head straight, he could have been a help to any NBA team.

Juan Carlos Navarro played only one year, and was ok, not any worse than Rookie Manu. He had such a good basketball IQ and shooting touch, he could have have been Jason Terry type player. Probably not a starter, due to his lack of size and athleticism, but a guy who would step up, space the floor and draw plenty of fouls with his high IQ flopping, dude is in flopping and silly foul drawing hall of fame. But he never was interested in the NBA, dude came to Memphis for one reason - his best friend was playing there and recruited him. But he left after the year, because said team traded said best friend of his...
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1173 » by Alatan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:21 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Alatan wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:I mean, if you are coming here with an agenda, of course you are going to find the posts that justify the opinion you already had before your opened the thread.


I come here to discuss basketball and all i encounter is exaggerations, wishful thinking and blind optimism. Although there are posters that discuss openly, criticism towards Doncic is looked down upon as hating by a significant group of fanboys.

Someone mentioned before but if Doncic fails to live up to this ridiculous hype as most likely he will, it will have such a big backlash on European basketball that it will turn down a great number of young athletes from even trying in the sport. If the "wonderboy" couldnt make an impact why should they even try. That annoys me greatly because i think that there is much more basketball talent in Europe than it is thought and Doncic is nothing special.

The average height in the Dinaric region of the Balkans is above 6'1'' for men. In those 10 or so million of men there is at least a couple of talents of Dragic level but many of them go for soccer of volleyball. Since im a big basketball fan it hurts me to see all that potential wasted and i fear that Doncic's failure will set the region back again.


The second part is okay, I somewhat agree, basketball is still far from being the most popular sport in Europe, or maybe even the second most popular (although it probably is on average). However, I definitely feel Doncic will be alright. He may not ever become a superstar, but at worst, he is still going to be a good player. Look at what Bogdanovic is doing right now, as someone who is a lot less athletic than Doncic. He actually guards Lebron well in this series, and just scored 30. People underestimate how good offenses are now. Look at how many points the teams score, the pace and space era simply unlocked team offenses, and there is nothing the defenses can do now, because the offensive schemes are simply too good. Now put someone like Doncic in that league, with one of the highest basketball IQs the sport has ever seen, and one of the most skilled teenagers ever, and you realize there is very little chance he completely fails. His floor is high, and I think most posters who think differently, do so because they have an agenda. Simply because the opinion that he will be a huge bust does not make any sense if you take a look at the current era of NBA basketball, and know Doncic's skillset.


I dont think he will bust in the strict sense that he will be out of the league. I think that he will be a starter or even a good starter but would that be enough ? "The best European basketball prospect ever" to become just an above average player would be a huge disappointment the way people are talking about him now. If he becomes anything less than a perennial star he would be seen as a failure by many of his fans and if he becomes just average it will be Darko all over again.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1174 » by burek3 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:35 pm

Alatan wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:
Alatan wrote:
I come here to discuss basketball and all i encounter is exaggerations, wishful thinking and blind optimism. Although there are posters that discuss openly, criticism towards Doncic is looked down upon as hating by a significant group of fanboys.

Someone mentioned before but if Doncic fails to live up to this ridiculous hype as most likely he will, it will have such a big backlash on European basketball that it will turn down a great number of young athletes from even trying in the sport. If the "wonderboy" couldnt make an impact why should they even try. That annoys me greatly because i think that there is much more basketball talent in Europe than it is thought and Doncic is nothing special.

The average height in the Dinaric region of the Balkans is above 6'1'' for men. In those 10 or so million of men there is at least a couple of talents of Dragic level but many of them go for soccer of volleyball. Since im a big basketball fan it hurts me to see all that potential wasted and i fear that Doncic's failure will set the region back again.


The second part is okay, I somewhat agree, basketball is still far from being the most popular sport in Europe, or maybe even the second most popular (although it probably is on average). However, I definitely feel Doncic will be alright. He may not ever become a superstar, but at worst, he is still going to be a good player. Look at what Bogdanovic is doing right now, as someone who is a lot less athletic than Doncic. He actually guards Lebron well in this series, and just scored 30. People underestimate how good offenses are now. Look at how many points the teams score, the pace and space era simply unlocked team offenses, and there is nothing the defenses can do now, because the offensive schemes are simply too good. Now put someone like Doncic in that league, with one of the highest basketball IQs the sport has ever seen, and one of the most skilled teenagers ever, and you realize there is very little chance he completely fails. His floor is high, and I think most posters who think differently, do so because they have an agenda. Simply because the opinion that he will be a huge bust does not make any sense if you take a look at the current era of NBA basketball, and know Doncic's skillset.


I dont think he will bust in the strict sense that he will be out of the league. I think that he will be a starter or even a good starter but would that be enough ? "The best European basketball prospect ever" to become just an above average player would be a huge disappointment the way people are talking about him now. If he becomes anything less than a perennial star he would be seen as a failure by many of his fans and if he becomes just average it will be Darko all over again.


One quite big part of his stock is his hard work and winning mentality.

You don't get to even sniff Real Madrid roster without that. Or any other Euroleague team for that matter. Even the trash of Euroleague such as Efes or Milano have some standards.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1175 » by KD95 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:50 pm

Read on Twitter


Guess it's official now. Thankfully Real got the win in the 2nd game, would have been proper awkward to make it official after being down 0-2.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1176 » by BlueSan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Not official till its official :D
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1177 » by MemphisX » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:19 pm

burek3 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:
The second part is okay, I somewhat agree, basketball is still far from being the most popular sport in Europe, or maybe even the second most popular (although it probably is on average). However, I definitely feel Doncic will be alright. He may not ever become a superstar, but at worst, he is still going to be a good player. Look at what Bogdanovic is doing right now, as someone who is a lot less athletic than Doncic. He actually guards Lebron well in this series, and just scored 30. People underestimate how good offenses are now. Look at how many points the teams score, the pace and space era simply unlocked team offenses, and there is nothing the defenses can do now, because the offensive schemes are simply too good. Now put someone like Doncic in that league, with one of the highest basketball IQs the sport has ever seen, and one of the most skilled teenagers ever, and you realize there is very little chance he completely fails. His floor is high, and I think most posters who think differently, do so because they have an agenda. Simply because the opinion that he will be a huge bust does not make any sense if you take a look at the current era of NBA basketball, and know Doncic's skillset.


I dont think he will bust in the strict sense that he will be out of the league. I think that he will be a starter or even a good starter but would that be enough ? "The best European basketball prospect ever" to become just an above average player would be a huge disappointment the way people are talking about him now. If he becomes anything less than a perennial star he would be seen as a failure by many of his fans and if he becomes just average it will be Darko all over again.


One quite big part of his stock is his hard work and winning mentality.

You don't get to even sniff Real Madrid roster without that. Or any other Euroleague team for that matter. Even the trash of Euroleague such as Efes or Milano have some standards.



Come on, Anthony Randolph starts on that team.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1178 » by Johnny Firpo » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:00 pm

MemphisX wrote:Come on, Anthony Randolph starts on that team.

Magic Randolph came a long way since his NBA days, as far as maturity and his approach to the game goes. He could very easily play in the NBA right now, and be a solid rotation player on a playoff team.
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1179 » by FlorentinoPerez » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:53 pm

MemphisX wrote:
burek3 wrote:
Alatan wrote:
I dont think he will bust in the strict sense that he will be out of the league. I think that he will be a starter or even a good starter but would that be enough ? "The best European basketball prospect ever" to become just an above average player would be a huge disappointment the way people are talking about him now. If he becomes anything less than a perennial star he would be seen as a failure by many of his fans and if he becomes just average it will be Darko all over again.


One quite big part of his stock is his hard work and winning mentality.

You don't get to even sniff Real Madrid roster without that. Or any other Euroleague team for that matter. Even the trash of Euroleague such as Efes or Milano have some standards.



Come on, Anthony Randolph starts on that team.



Anthony fxxxx Randolph played 0 (zero) minutes the other day in the second half vs pana
Real Madrid fans are fed up with him and his lack of winning mentality
just unacceptable
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Re: Luka Doncic Part III 

Post#1180 » by BlueSan » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:03 pm

lack of winning mentality? Seriously...

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