daoneandonly wrote:With that said, more people in this one conference you mentioned being the best, heck let's go a step further, one team in Duke, will have more NBA caliber players than all of Euroleague in the 2018 draft, and you can take that to the bank. Already count 5 likely, Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval. Exactly how many guys in Euroleague are going to make it?
Yup
I've seen this argument before in Doncic threads. Just wanna quickly respond and I'll catch up with CLE@IND later on timeouts. I'm assuming you're open to discussion and revision of your positions. And if not, then please don't make this particular argument again if you aren't gonna have a counter-argument for it. So... this is actually a horrible take. But a very understandable and natural one for people who don't know much about EuroLeague.
There aren't many prospects coming out of Euroleague because 19-20 year old players aren't good enough for Euroleague. Not yet. I won't talk about Euroleague's specific qualities again and again to explain this. But these kids aren't trusted in these situations. Forget busts and average players, merely above average players, below average players. Just look at All-Star level NBA players who have played in Europe.
Dirk Nowitzki, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Tony Parker, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Pau Gasol, he was playing in Euroleague.
Manu Ginobili, not only he wasn't playing in EL, he was playing in Italian 2nd division when he was 21. 3 years later he went to NBA as a top 3 player in all of Euroball. That's the difference between an age 21 season and age 24 season.
Marc Gasol, he was in Euroleague, somewhat playing.
Goran Dragic, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Giannis Antetokounmpo, wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Mehmet Okur wasn't playing in Euroleague.
Andrei Kirilenko... well, for him it's complicated but let's count him, sure, he was playing in EL
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, wasn't playing in EL
Peja was playing in EL
Divac was playing in EL
Porzingis wasn't playing in EL.
Some weak All Stars there, sure, but they are All Star selection. Wanted to select an objective criteria, not that I give value to AS selections. So these are NBA All-Stars who were playing in Europe in their 18-21 age range. It doesn't account for:
a) Euros going to NCAA. They might choose to go to NCAA believing in a better developmental program compared to EL teams who are looking to win every day (which is actually my entire argument here) but if say, Lauri Markkanen, would be as crucial as Luka Doncic to an EL team, he's not going to NCAA solely on the basis that he is as a player, focuses on the big competition in front of him, instead of living his career as a prospect.
b) These are only All-Stars, the gap between an NBA All-Star (even the worst one ever in that particular season) and a "draft selection worthy prospect" is huge. As an NBA draft pick could end up being a bust and spend a 8 year career until retirement in Belgium, G-League and Mexico. That simply could happen to one of the names you listed (I'm not making that argument about someone specific from your list btw, at this point almost everyone in this thread probably knows that I don't know a thing about NCAA prospects). Whereas, I used past examples, so these were "where was this guy as a 18-21 age player?" for actual all-stars. If we were to count other Euros who are/have been good but not actual all-stars, then the number of non-Euroleague players at age 18-21 would increase. But I didn't do that. No, let's look at actual all-star selections and even then how many of those were EL players as prospects.
5 players out of a 13 player list were in the EuroLeague. These 19, 20 year old kids aren't playing in Euroleague simply because they can't. '15 Kristaps Porzingis was alright as Sevilla's starting center. No way he would sniff minutes in a Euroleague team. No EL coach would play that version of Kristaps. Same for Nikola Jokic in his last year at Mega. And Giannis Antetokoumpo. Anyone who wasn't already in EL.
So anyone who makes the "X College team will have Y draft selections, that team alone will pass EL's selection number" argument either
a) Doesn't understand Euroleague isn't a league where you can develop young players, afford them minutes, let them make mistakes, focus on their physical/mental/skillset developments as prospects. Even in the NBA, a tanking team can do this for its young players late season, or rebuilding teams from the start of the season. That just is impossible in EL. Domestic leagues, possible. EL, nah. You don't play if you're not gonna contribute to win probability. Age doesn't matter. EL is the league where you should play Jarrett Jack over Ntilikina if the former is having a better game/week/stretch than the latter.
b) Development for any player anywhere due to getting older every season at early 20s is still huge.
or both.
Yes, Doncic is having bad games, has some concerning structural issues, he's actually going through tough games due to those structural issues right now, in this very season. And as I said earlier, performance in EL playoffs should matter a lot for scouts. But his biggest two arguments basically come down to:
a) how great he is at this age to be given this role. It's historically unusual.
b) his jump as a player from 2016-17 to 2017-18. Which essentially is the biggest thing. Being an EL rotation player at age 17 and then not staying flat, and improving significantly is even more unusual historically.
Finally, I do agree in general with @ucanuwill here about mirotic's rhetoric and I get the vibe from every post I read from him (which is half of the posts I see from him) that he would flip the narrative on things according to his agenda. Which is absurd. Because his biased EuroLeague stance is actually essentially not understanding how much Euroleague is different from the NBA and that's why it's great. Like, I think he's acting like EL is the 2nd division of NBA and thinks it's a much better 2nd division in terms of quality than the consensus while that's not even the case. EL is so different from the NBA, it can't be the 2nd division to it. That's why I hate the "2nd best league in the world" title as well, even though it's technically true. But if EL was the 2nd division, and if it was similar and comparable to NBA, why would anybody watch it really? Millions of people watch EL in any season, why would they do that if it's similar to NBA? NBA is a much higher level of competition then, nobody would watch Euroleague. I personally know hundreds of people prefering EL and Euroball over NBA, are those people mad? How many people would prefer Spanish 2nd league football to La Liga? How much different Euroball & Euroleague from NBA is a bigger gap than how much of a higher level of competition NBA is from Euroleague. I hope some of you understand this.
But... as a poster who neither reads nor comments NCAA parts of this thread, because I know nothing about NCAA basketball; suggesting an amateur basketball organization and amateur basketball players are comparable to EuroLeague in terms of quality of the competition is significantly more illogical than anything mirotic could be writing with a super biased agenda & a super wrong methodology of comparing players/teams/leagues that end up hurting the image of the league he's trying to stan for.