Cameron Reddish

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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#401 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 2:29 pm

Dat2U wrote:Based on his Duke tape he's a complete project. Maybe he becomes a solid 3&D player in time? But upside? Meh. I don't see it. Upside is tied to b-ball IQ which is displayed in the decisions you make on the court.

Is that the only thing upside is tied to?
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#402 » by Dat2U » Mon May 27, 2019 3:13 pm

prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Based on his Duke tape he's a complete project. Maybe he becomes a solid 3&D player in time? But upside? Meh. I don't see it. Upside is tied to b-ball IQ which is displayed in the decisions you make on the court.

Is that the only thing upside is tied to?


No, but frankly nothing else matters if your consistently making bad decisions on the court.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#403 » by gundysmullet » Mon May 27, 2019 3:40 pm

prime1time wrote:
gundysmullet wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
you're making a lot of weird and baseless assumptions here


Such as? You used the term “a lot”, I don’t think there were any assumptions let alone “a lot” but please elaborate. Thanks

Is it that Cam doesn't like basketball or that a guy who's played the entire career with the ball on his hands, was now forced to completely change roles?

Players are asked to change their game all the time. That doesn’t make them float on the perimeter, disappear for long stretches of time, struggle to finish at the rim and shoot extremely poorly.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#404 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 4:00 pm

gundysmullet wrote:
prime1time wrote:
gundysmullet wrote:
Such as? You used the term “a lot”, I don’t think there were any assumptions let alone “a lot” but please elaborate. Thanks

Is it that Cam doesn't like basketball or that a guy who's played the entire career with the ball on his hands, was now forced to completely change roles?

Players are asked to change their game all the time. That doesn’t make them float on the perimeter, disappear for long stretches of time, struggle to finish at the rim and shoot extremely poorly.

Did I say that it did? You were the one who said he's not passionate about basketball without any justification. I presented an alternative explanation. Now you move the chains from saying he's not passionate about basketball to he didn't play well. Cam floated on the perimeter because that what players do when they play with ball dominant players. Look at Chris Bosh and Kevin Love when they played with LeBron. Does Cam need to improve his game? Of course. But this is why people need to be critically minded and discerning. You're not even talking about the actual player Cam in your post. You just zero in on his flaws, say he doesn't like the game and claim that he's trying to dupe people out of money.

Players are asked to change their game all the time, this is correct. But how many times has a high school star that's had everything handed to him been asked to change his game? And more so, how many times has that process happened seamlessly. Just the other day I heard Nassir Little discuss how his entire year was a challenge because he was asked to play a role he's never played before.

If you don't want to engage in a normal discussion about a player, a discussion centered around his flaws, his strengths and his potential, then there isn't really anything to discuss. Also, just because I defend Cam doesn't mean I believe he's a perfect prospect. The dude has flaws. But way too many people on this site think they've struck gold by finding the typical physically gifted player who stats and on court performance don't match. "Look like Tarzan play like Jane." Some of us, however, go beyond just looking at stats and try to connect his lack of success to his actual skill level and then break down his skill deficiency into categories that are improvable and categories that are not improvable.

In my opinion the things Cam's struggles with are improvable. And it is just shocking to see multiple posts made in this thread with any deep level of analysis of actual basketball skills.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#405 » by prime1time » Mon May 27, 2019 4:09 pm

Dat2U wrote:
prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Based on his Duke tape he's a complete project. Maybe he becomes a solid 3&D player in time? But upside? Meh. I don't see it. Upside is tied to b-ball IQ which is displayed in the decisions you make on the court.

Is that the only thing upside is tied to?


No, but frankly nothing else matters if your consistently making bad decisions on the court.

Was he making bad decisions because he's a low iq player, or because he wasn't being put in a place to succeed. Was he making bad decisions because he had super high expectations placed on him and he tried (and failed) to live up to those expectations or because he's a naturally low iq basketball player? I'll save you some time. You don't know and neither do I. What I do know, however, is that when a player is given a role on offense that is suited to his strengths, his performance level can change dramatically. That's why I've said previously in this thread that Cam can be successful if he goes to the right team. A team that will take him along slowly, work on his flaws and caters his offensive role to his strengths. Now, if Cam is given a role and yet insists on doing what he wants then I'll agree with you. The reality is that many players on this thread are making a lot of assumptions about a dude, based on a small sample size on a situation that was not conducive to his skills.

I asked before and I'll ask again, why can't Cam be an elite role player? Why is the standard that he's held to automatically efficient high volume scorer or bust? Where is the logic in this kind of reasoning?
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#406 » by Illmatic12 » Mon May 27, 2019 5:10 pm

What about Reddish screams “elite role player” or elite at anything.

He’s a plus perimeter defender when he wants to be. But his bball IQ is not particularly high, has a pathetically low motor, too soft to guard bigger players , nigh useless as a rebounder despite being 6’9, and his shooting is very inconsistent.

And if the excuse for poor performance at Duke is “he was overshadowed by better players on his team” isn’t that a red flag? He’s not going to come into any NBA team and be the main option so if he can’t accept being a role player that tells me a lot about his mentality.

I don’t really see those intangibles or effort that would translate to Reddish being an elite role player. He seems closer to Andrew Wiggins than an Otto Porter.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#407 » by gundysmullet » Mon May 27, 2019 5:57 pm

prime1time wrote:
gundysmullet wrote:
prime1time wrote:Is it that Cam doesn't like basketball or that a guy who's played the entire career with the ball on his hands, was now forced to completely change roles?

Players are asked to change their game all the time. That doesn’t make them float on the perimeter, disappear for long stretches of time, struggle to finish at the rim and shoot extremely poorly.

Did I say that it did? You were the one who said he's not passionate about basketball without any justification. I presented an alternative explanation. Now you move the chains from saying he's not passionate about basketball to he didn't play well. Cam floated on the perimeter because that what players do when they play with ball dominant players. Look at Chris Bosh and Kevin Love when they played with LeBron. Does Cam need to improve his game? Of course. But this is why people need to be critically minded and discerning. You're not even talking about the actual player Cam in your post. You just zero in on his flaws, say he doesn't like the game and claim that he's trying to dupe people out of money.

Players are asked to change their game all the time, this is correct. But how many times has a high school star that's had everything handed to him been asked to change his game? And more so, how many times has that process happened seamlessly. Just the other day I heard Nassir Little discuss how his entire year was a challenge because he was asked to play a role he's never played before.

If you don't want to engage in a normal discussion about a player, a discussion centered around his flaws, his strengths and his potential, then there isn't really anything to discuss. Also, just because I defend Cam doesn't mean I believe he's a perfect prospect. The dude has flaws. But way too many people on this site think they've struck gold by finding the typical physically gifted player who stats and on court performance don't match. "Look like Tarzan play like Jane." Some of us, however, go beyond just looking at stats and try to connect his lack of success to his actual skill level and then break down his skill deficiency into categories that are improvable and categories that are not improvable.

In my opinion the things Cam's struggles with are improvable. And it is just shocking to see multiple posts made in this thread with any deep level of analysis of actual basketball skills.


you're waaay too defensive and sensitive on this topic for some reason. I never said that he's not passionate about the game, I speculated that that may be the case. I'm gonna say this and it's gonna hurt your feelings, but whatever: If Cam went to Illinois, Colorado or Penn State and put up the exact same numbers you wouldn't even be remotely interested in him and he wouldn't be considered to be a top 10 pick by anyone, but he was a Mickey Dee's AA and has the Duke mystique behind his name. We tend to do mental gymnastics to try and justify why we think Player X is really good instead of just using our eyes and seeing what actually took place on the court.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#408 » by gundysmullet » Mon May 27, 2019 5:59 pm

prime1time wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
prime1time wrote:Is that the only thing upside is tied to?


No, but frankly nothing else matters if your consistently making bad decisions on the court.

Was he making bad decisions because he's a low iq player, or because he wasn't being put in a place to succeed. Was he making bad decisions because he had super high expectations placed on him and he tried (and failed) to live up to those expectations or because he's a naturally low iq basketball player? I'll save you some time. You don't know and neither do I. What I do know, however, is that when a player is given a role on offense that is suited to his strengths, his performance level can change dramatically. That's why I've said previously in this thread that Cam can be successful if he goes to the right team. A team that will take him along slowly, work on his flaws and caters his offensive role to his strengths. Now, if Cam is given a role and yet insists on doing what he wants then I'll agree with you. The reality is that many players on this thread are making a lot of assumptions about a dude, based on a small sample size on a situation that was not conducive to his skills.

I asked before and I'll ask again, why can't Cam be an elite role player? Why is the standard that he's held to automatically efficient high volume scorer or bust? Where is the logic in this kind of reasoning?


Isn't this an oxymoron? And let's say that he does become a very good role player. Very good role players are not chosen top 10.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#409 » by gundysmullet » Mon May 27, 2019 6:00 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:What about Reddish screams “elite role player” or elite at anything.

He’s a plus perimeter defender when he wants to be. But his bball IQ is not particularly high, has a pathetically low motor, too soft to guard bigger players , nigh useless as a rebounder despite being 6’9, and his shooting is very inconsistent.

And if the excuse for poor performance at Duke is “he was overshadowed by better players on his team” isn’t that a red flag? He’s not going to come into any NBA team and be the main option so if he can’t accept being a role player that tells me a lot about his mentality.

I don’t really see those intangibles or effort that would translate to Reddish being an elite role player. He seems closer to Andrew Wiggins than an Otto Porter.


Excellent post! The argument that there were 2 better players than him and that's why he struggled makes zero sense. If anything he should've performed even better because defenses had to focus on Zion and RJ.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#410 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:27 pm

His stock might have just went way up … due to the core muscle issue that was revealed as a major factor in his meh season.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#411 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Jun 1, 2019 6:48 pm

Stillwater wrote:His stock might have just went way up … due to the core muscle issue that was revealed as a major factor in his meh season.


*Spun as a major factor in his meh season.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#412 » by PhilBlackson » Sat Jun 1, 2019 7:00 pm

If the Knicks can't swing a deal for AD, I think they're going to shock everyone and draft Reddish.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#413 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 1, 2019 7:23 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Stillwater wrote:His stock might have just went way up … due to the core muscle issue that was revealed as a major factor in his meh season.


*Spun as a major factor in his meh season.

I was one of Reddish's biggest haters but this development explains a lot of his passiveness and so it moves him up the board esp given there was never any question about his elite skillset/ only his apparent disinterest and lack of finishing ability which now looks more like that wasn't the case at all and everything was physical.
Assuming the repair works which teams won't know until after the draft I don't think it moves him up into the top 4 but definitely makes it more reasonable for CLE.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#414 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Jun 1, 2019 7:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Stillwater wrote:His stock might have just went way up … due to the core muscle issue that was revealed as a major factor in his meh season.


*Spun as a major factor in his meh season.

I was one of Reddish's biggest haters but this development explains a lot of his passiveness and so it moves him up the board esp given there was never any question about his elite skillset/ only his apparent disinterest and lack of finishing ability which now looks more like that wasn't the case at all and everything was physical.
Assuming the repair works which teams won't know until after the draft I don't think it moves him up into the top 4 but definitely makes it more reasonable for CLE.


It’s possible the injury explains his meh season, but that’s also the explanation most generous to Reddish and it was almost certainly fed to Woj/Shams by his agents. That’s why it should be looked at with a jaundiced eye. There’s still the very real possibility that Cam isn’t good.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#415 » by Coeur » Sat Jun 1, 2019 8:56 pm

PhilBlackson wrote:If the Knicks can't swing a deal for AD, I think they're going to shock everyone and draft Reddish.

I agree. It might be Doumbouya but prob Reddish. Knicks will wake up this draft!!!!
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#416 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 1, 2019 9:09 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
*Spun as a major factor in his meh season.

I was one of Reddish's biggest haters but this development explains a lot of his passiveness and so it moves him up the board esp given there was never any question about his elite skillset/ only his apparent disinterest and lack of finishing ability which now looks more like that wasn't the case at all and everything was physical.
Assuming the repair works which teams won't know until after the draft I don't think it moves him up into the top 4 but definitely makes it more reasonable for CLE.


It’s possible the injury explains his meh season, but that’s also the explanation most generous to Reddish and it was almost certainly fed to Woj/Shams by his agents. That’s why it should be looked at with a jaundiced eye. There’s still the very real possibility that Cam isn’t good.

Yeah I might be buying the fools gold I guess , and it does seem odd timing to finally hear of it, if it had been known but it also could be the kid himself didn't even know what was wrong until after these teams started probing into medicals and searching for explanations to how a kid so highly touted was playing like a 0 star recruit much of the season.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#417 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sat Jun 1, 2019 10:00 pm

Stillwater wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I was one of Reddish's biggest haters but this development explains a lot of his passiveness and so it moves him up the board esp given there was never any question about his elite skillset/ only his apparent disinterest and lack of finishing ability which now looks more like that wasn't the case at all and everything was physical.
Assuming the repair works which teams won't know until after the draft I don't think it moves him up into the top 4 but definitely makes it more reasonable for CLE.


It’s possible the injury explains his meh season, but that’s also the explanation most generous to Reddish and it was almost certainly fed to Woj/Shams by his agents. That’s why it should be looked at with a jaundiced eye. There’s still the very real possibility that Cam isn’t good.

Yeah I might be buying the fools gold I guess , and it does seem odd timing to finally hear of it, if it had been known but it also could be the kid himself didn't even know what was wrong until after these teams started probing into medicals and searching for explanations to how a kid so highly touted was playing like a 0 star recruit much of the season.


The frustrating thing about Cam is it’s impossible to know how much the injury affected his play. So you’re not comfortable taking him or passing on him. Maybe he’d have been awesome if he was 100% this season. I kinda doubt it, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#418 » by Chanel Bomber » Sun Jun 2, 2019 12:01 am

PhilBlackson wrote:If the Knicks can't swing a deal for AD, I think they're going to shock everyone and draft Reddish.

The Knicks drafted another prospect with a low motor in Kevin Knox last year, and his NBA career is off to a really bad start.

I can't see Scott Perry repeating the same mistake. But he's doing his due diligence and he's absolutely considering him at #3, as he should, even if I feel he shouldn't pick him. Let's just say I would be very disappointed to see another low motor player being drafted by my team.
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#419 » by PhilBlackson » Sun Jun 2, 2019 2:41 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:If the Knicks can't swing a deal for AD, I think they're going to shock everyone and draft Reddish.

The Knicks drafted another prospect with a low motor in Kevin Knox last year, and his NBA career is off to a really bad start.

I can't see Scott Perry repeating the same mistake. But he's doing his due diligence and he's absolutely considering him at #3, as he should, even if I feel he shouldn't pick him. Let's just say I would be very disappointed to see another low motor player being drafted by my team.


Yeah personally if I were the Knicks I wouldn't do that lol I just think it's too much of a risk that high in the draft when he's displaying warning signs to me reminiscent of Andrew Wiggins.

I think he is a lot more talented than Wiggins was at the same age and his skills are very tempting because his style of play looks a lot like Paul George but in New York....not sure you want a passive player in that market. He may come around in time but you can't have another "Dennis Smith instead of Frank" type of convo lol even if it turned out the way it did.

Now my own personal bias, I like DeAndre Hunter. His skillset, style and EXACT same measurements remind me a ton of Kawhi. Now I don't think he's going to reach that level but still to have one of the best young 2 way prospects I think it's a great fit especially next to Mitchell Robinson and if you do in fact get KD & Kyrie, he wouldn't be as ball dominant as Barrett (who I'll talk about in a sec) but still provide 3pt shooting and defense to plug in the gaps between those 2 players....with KD and Robsinson -- they could be a terror defensively...just sayin.

But all that said Barrett may end up being the safe pick in some ways. You draft a player you know is likely the greatest bait for an AD deal and if for some reason the Pels pass, well you know the kid will be aggressive enough to be ready to play in MSG. Really I think some people are WAY too down on him simply for not living up to the unreasonable hype and looming in Zion's massive shadow. But really to average 23ppg as a freshman that is still an excellent prospect. He went from overrated to underrated imo. To still has an exceptional understanding of the game for a kid his age and a variety of skills to score....as he refines his shooting technique, he could actually break out to become a star quality player...and he's widely regarded as the 2nd-3rd best prospect already so it seems hard to pass on him in the end. But this is the Knicks so I don't think anything is predictable lol
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Re: Cameron Reddish 

Post#420 » by The_Hater » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:18 pm

Reddish is going to be an interesting test case for the analytics vs eye test scouts out there.

His Duke stats are nothing short of horrendous. <40% on 2 pt FG seems almost impossible for a player of his size, skill, athletic ability and the lack of defensive attention he had as a freshman. But hey André Drummond had terrible freshman stats too.

On the flip side, the eye test screams ‘good player, just look at his skill set. Look at that shooting stroke, look at that body’.

I’ve gone back and forth on him but I can’t help but think that good players don’t put up horrendous numbers like that, especially when there was virtually no pressure on him. Maybe his bball IQ just stinks. Maybe he was just in a a season long funk. Maybe it always came easy to him so he didn’t think he needed to work hard. Or maybe he’s just not as good against better competition as he looked in high school? Lots of top prospects have fit into that category.
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