Deni Avdija - 2020 draft

getrichordie · Post #141 » by **getrichordie** » Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:44 pm

Draft2020 wrote:Deni Avdija, the #5 prospect in the ESPN 100, has declared for the 2020 NBA Draft, he announced on Get Up this morning:

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Watch on YouTube

Can we ban this guy? He’s been all over the boards trying to get YouTube hits...

Mirotic12 · Post #142 » by **Mirotic12** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:39 pm

clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
clyde21 wrote:honestly I think he should be looked at more as a 4 or a combo forward depending on the lineup than just a SF, his weaknesses are negated a bit more if he slides up a position

I think he's a + athlete and a ++ playmaker as a 4 with some stretch potential, that should be his role in any closing lineups.

I've always looked at Avdija as a 4. Wasn't aware he was considered for the 3 spot at the next level. I see him being the next Gallinari but a bit better defensively.

a lot of people are talking about him as a wing, he's listed as a SF on tankathon for example, he's better prospect as a combo forward instead of a true wing

I don't think Avdija's a wing. NBA is doing their usual nonsense, where they take a player from Europe, and then change their position, which is just stupid. The most glaringly obviously dumb example of that was when the NBA tried to convert Nando De Colo into a point guard, for some strange reason, even though he always plays as a 2/3 in Europe.

Every time I watched Maccabi play this season, Avdija was playing as a face up four.

HeadtopChunes · Post #143 » by **HeadtopChunes** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:58 pm

You guys buying his shooting with the bad FT%?

Pistol King · Post #144 » by **Pistol King** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:11 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I've always looked at Avdija as a 4. Wasn't aware he was considered for the 3 spot at the next level. I see him being the next Gallinari but a bit better defensively.

a lot of people are talking about him as a wing, he's listed as a SF on tankathon for example, he's better prospect as a combo forward instead of a true wing

I don't think Avdija's a wing. NBA is doing their usual nonsense, where they take a player from Europe, and then change their position, which is just stupid. The most glaringly obviously dumb example of that was when the NBA tried to convert Nando De Colo into a point guard, for some strange reason, even though he always plays as a 2/3 in Europe.

Every time I watched Maccabi play this season, Avdija was playing as a face up four.

I think it's just half correct. Watching his games, the players Maccabi played at the 4 at the EuroLeague were usually Quincy Acy, Jake Cohen and Angelo Caloiaro. Deni mainly played as a SF, with some minutes as a PF and some minutes as a guard.
The reason he didn't play a lot of minutes at the guard positions was because Maccabi loaded with talent in these positions with scottie wilbekin, tyler dorsey, Elijah Bryant, John DiBartolomeo and Nate Wolters (the last two got inured later on) and needed more help at the 3-4 positions. But I saw no reason skill wise why would he not be able to play as a guard as well in the Euroleague depends on match ups. Sometimes he (successfully) guarded the opponent guards, and he's for no doubt did a better job defensively than scottie wilbekin and tyler dorsey who seemed to be two defensive holes. Sometimes I've seen his coach enter him particularly for a defensive possession while asking him to guard one of the opponents guard because he trusted his defense more than he trusted wilbekin's or Dorsey.

I'd disagree in general with the take deni is not quick enough to guard SF's at the NBA level. I think he moves his legs quick enough and has more agility than what gets credit for, but what he will have to improve is his reaction timing and a better positioning. This I believe will come with experience. Also of course he will need to improve his lateral quickness not because it's that bad but more because it can still be better and he has more room to improve there.

I really believe that the team drafts him must build him as their future point forward. This is where I can see his potential reaching the best way. A big sized point who runs a major part of the offense and can punish the opponent in different ways (passing, attacking miss-matches, creat off PnR, scoring and fast transitions). Obviously it will not happen from day 1 and he will need time to get used to the physicality level of the NBA, and he will have to tighten his ball handle more, though he's already a good ball handler at his size and I rarely seen him turned the ball over off dribbling. But if a team picks him high, I'd expect them to build him at the position where he can be dangerous the most. And this position must involved his strong skills (passing, ball handling at his size, open court speed, PnR, driving to the rim with a good feel for the game and a good ability to read the opponent's defense).

Bob8 · Post #145 » by **Bob8** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:48 am

Pistol King wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
a lot of people are talking about him as a wing, he's listed as a SF on tankathon for example, he's better prospect as a combo forward instead of a true wing

I don't think Avdija's a wing. NBA is doing their usual nonsense, where they take a player from Europe, and then change their position, which is just stupid. The most glaringly obviously dumb example of that was when the NBA tried to convert Nando De Colo into a point guard, for some strange reason, even though he always plays as a 2/3 in Europe.

Every time I watched Maccabi play this season, Avdija was playing as a face up four.

I think it's just half correct. Watching his games, the players Maccabi played at the 4 at the EuroLeague were usually Quincy Acy, Jake Cohen and Angelo Caloiaro. Deni mainly played as a SF, with some minutes as a PF and some minutes as a guard.
The reason he didn't play a lot of minutes at the guard positions was because Maccabi loaded with talent in these positions with scottie wilbekin, tyler dorsey, Elijah Bryant, John DiBartolomeo and Nate Wolters (the last two got inured later on) and needed more help at the 3-4 positions. But I saw no reason skill wise why would he not be able to play as a guard as well in the Euroleague depends on match ups. Sometimes he (successfully) guarded the opponent guards, and he's for no doubt did a better job defensively than scottie wilbekin and tyler dorsey who seemed to be two defensive holes. Sometimes I've seen his coach enter him particularly for a defensive possession while asking him to guard one of the opponents guard because he trusted his defense more than he trusted wilbekin's or Dorsey.

I'd disagree in general with the take deni is not quick enough to guard SF's at the NBA level. I think he moves his legs quick enough and has more agility than what gets credit for, but what he will have to improve is his reaction timing and a better positioning. This I believe will come with experience. Also of course he will need to improve his lateral quickness not because it's that bad but more because it can still be better and he has more room to improve there.

I really believe that the team drafts him must build him as their future point forward. This is where I can see his potential reaching the best way. A big sized point who runs a major part of the offense and can punish the opponent in different ways (passing, attacking miss-matches, creat off PnR, scoring and fast transitions). Obviously it will not happen from day 1 and he will need time to get used to the physicality level of the NBA, and he will have to tighten his ball handle more, though he's already a good ball handler at his size and I rarely seen him turned the ball over off dribbling. But if a team picks him high, I'd expect them to build him at the position where he can be dangerous the most. And this position must involved his strong skills (passing, ball handling at his size, open court speed, PnR, driving to the rim with a good feel for the game and a good ability to read the opponent's defense).

You’re very optimistic about Avdija. Not likely to happen, but let see what happens. Saying how Wilbekin is a reason that he’s not playing guard is just wrong. There isn’t a single player with Avdija’s characteristic and abilities that play as guard in Euroleague. He’s just not good enough at the moment. Euroleague is a top league in Europe, you have to be pretty good to play there and nobody cares if you’re young prospect, you have to be better than others to earn the spot. If 35 years old veteran is better, you won’t get minutes. Avdija is light years away from Campazzo, Larkin, James, Shved, Rodriguez, Micic, Calathes, Delaney, Sloukas, Nando...Even grandpa Spanoulis is still much better. So no way he can play a guard in Euroleague and gets serious minutes.

UcanUwill · Post #146 » by **UcanUwill** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:57 pm

Maccabi were definitely not loaded at guard positions, when your second best guard easily is freaking Tyler Dorsey, trust me, you are not loaded. Team like Efes is loaded, Maccabi had open spots up for grabs, and Avdija just wasnt good to fill it up. When quicker and more athletic guards of the NBA will get scouting report that he can only dribble right, you think Avdija will do any damage in the NBA, good luck with that.

No-Man · Post #147 » by **No-Man** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:01 pm

Avdija is not a Guard my dude

Pistol King · Post #148 » by **Pistol King** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:30 pm

How many PG on this draft class are at the same level as the experiences names you mentioned, Bob? non of them. How many of them yet projected to be guards at the NBA? you got my point..

Watching his games, Deni is a better playmaker than Wilbekin, Bryant and Dorsey. I stand behind this. If they could be the leading point guards in one of the top 5 teams in the EuroLeague,I don't see a reason why Deni couldn't be, at least as a second point guard option after Wilbekin.

Tyler Dorsey (you can laugh on him but fact is he played a lot in a top 5 team in the Euroleague, like it or not) averaged 1.5 assists and 1.5 turn overs in 18 minutes per game in the Euroleague. Elijah Bryant averaged 2 assists and 1.3 turn overs in 20 minutes per game. Both played as point guards. Deni averaged 1.2 assists and 0.7 turn overs in 14 minutes per game when he got much less opportunities with the ball on his hands .Nothing will convince me that Deni couldn't provided better than Dorsey and Bryant if was getting the same opportunities.

You guys see a tall player and immediately think he will be awful as a point, but what if his ball handling and playmaking are good? why not using someone his size who can be a nightmare and a big miss match for smaller guards? It was frustrating to see his coach barely put the ball on his hands and rather put it on Doresy and Bryant who are less talented. That's part of the problem in the 'pressure to win now' environment in the EuroLeague, they are too conservative and very afraid of taking risks that can pay dividend in the long term.

I don't view him as a guard by myself because of his size, but I do view him as a point forward and think it will be mistake to not build him as someone who can run at least part of the offense.

I'll just put here a few quotes of NBA draft expertes that reinforces my opinion on him as a player who can play as a point forward:

Jonathan Givony: "Big enough to play PF but has the ballhandling, creativity and playmaking skill of a PG"

Fran Fraschilla: "He's kind of a combo-forward who in my opinion can guard at least three spots -- 2, 3, and 4"

nbadraft.net: "All around talented wing with great size … Versatile, he can play from shooting guard to power forward"

they also ranked his ball handling as 8 and his passing at 9

Mike Shmitz: "Avdija brings the ability to slide anywhere between positions 1 through 4 in a pinch on both ends"

etc.

So, if a small guard must have elite ball handling, a player in Deni's size can have just '8 grade' ball handling (out of 10) while using his size as an elite advantage and keep develop his ball handling from there on. And by no mean I'm saying he's a perfect ball handler, I mentioned myself he should improve the ability to go left and to add more offensive moves, but it's not correct to say he can't at all, I've seen him successfully go left or dribbling with his left hand from time to time, he just need to massively strengthen it. What will happen when after scouting reports teams force him go left? he will learn to improve his left side game by these exact experiences. It will happen just when he gets the opportunities, as with any other teenager who should still build his game and improve his weaknesses.

Mirotic12 · Post #149 » by **Mirotic12** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:01 pm

I like Advija more than I liked Hezonja, Kurucs, and Bender, but this thread is starting to look exactly like all the threads on them before their drafts.....

In that simply pointing out that they were 10-13 man type players in EuroLeague led to all kinds of claims about how it was "the coach", "they don't play young players in Europe", "their team was trying to sabotage their draft stock", etc.

None of it is correct. None of it. Same with Avdija. His coach at Maccabi, Ioannis Sfairopoulos is an outstanding coach. Easily one of the best coaches in Europe. I guarantee you he is a better coach than plenty of NBA head coaches are. He is a great defensive coach, he has great game plans, prepares teams very well, and he does a great job of utilizing players to their strengths and is very good at developing young players. He's also a very efficient offensive coach, as he always uses his players and teams in the best possible way that fits them. He's not one of those coaches that tries to adjust players and teams to his system, rather he morphs the offenses to what is best for his teams. He puts players individually in the best roles and positions to maximize them.

Olympiacos was so much worse as a team as soon as they replaced Sfairopoulos with David Blatt. David Blatt had basically the same team, and was a disaster, with the team Sfairopoulos had all kinds of success with. Sfairopoulos came into Maccabi and just about immediately turned them around, after they had been going through coach after coach, for years.

So let's not pretend that Advija's production level had anything to do with his coach - he probably gets a noticeably worse coach in the NBA. Sfairopoulos made a point to play him and give him chances, even if it was detrimental to the team's success. So can we please drop this NBA myth about how "EuroLeague teams won't use young players right"? It's complete nonsense.

As for Tyler Dorsey and Elijah Bryant, neither one of them is a point guard. They don't play point guard. Neither of them is used as a point guard by Maccabi. Dorsey is a 2/3, mostly a 2, and Bryant is a 3/2, mostly a 3. And neither one of them is a very good player. I know Dorsey played in NBA rotations from time to time, and said he is going back to NBA, and supposedly Bryant has NBA offers, but really, so what?

Dorsey is a borderline scrub in NBA, he wasn't good enough to make Greece's EuroBasket team (he was cut in training camp, as Ioannis Athinaiou beat him out for the team's 5th guard role), and he is like an average level second option shooting guard in EuroLeague (they don't have designated starters and bench in Europe, but do have main and second options). Dorsey is basically just a designated gunner off the bench type, that offers little other than just shooting open jumpers. He sure is no play maker or point guard.

Bryant is probably a bit better of an overall player than Dorsey is, but honestly, he's below average for a main 2 or 3 in EuroLeague. He's probably a bit above average physically and defensively, while he's below average in terms of skills and ability. His handle and shooting isn't good enough for the two guard position, let alone the point guard position, and for EuroLeague standards, his passing is below average for the small forward position. Neither one of them is a point guard.

No-Man · Post #150 » by **No-Man** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:44 pm

Avdija played more than Hezonja, Bender and Kurucs for a way better team, he showed more, just stop it, talking about him as if he were a marginal guy (like those dudes) for Maccabi this year is just ridiculous

UcanUwill · Post #151 » by **UcanUwill** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:38 pm

Fischella wrote:Avdija played more than Hezonja, Bender and Kurucs for a way better team, he showed more, just stop it, talking about him as if he were a marginal guy (like those dudes) for Maccabi this year is just ridiculous

Hezonja actually had bigger role on better Barcelona team, and he actually shot 40% from 3 and was super athletic. At a time he was real deal and past busts were no good, this is history repeating itself beat for beat.

No-Man · Post #152 » by **No-Man** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:09 pm

Hezonja was always bad lol plus a terrible guy to have around

Hezonja was a year older, fully, and he played worse for a worse team, yeah he played a bit more in Euroleague, but overall he had a lesser role

Nazrmohamed · Post #153 » by **Nazrmohamed** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:55 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Draft2020 wrote:Deni Avdija, the #5 prospect in the ESPN 100, has declared for the 2020 NBA Draft, he announced on Get Up this morning:

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Watch on YouTube

Can we ban this guy? He’s been all over the boards trying to get YouTube hits...

What's the downside though, you get to watch a cool video?

Although I have yet to watch it. Let's see if its trash.

The-Power · Post #154 » by **The-Power** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:30 pm

Fischella wrote:Hezonja was always bad lol plus a terrible guy to have around

Hezonja was a year older, fully, and he played worse for a worse team, yeah he played a bit more in Euroleague, but overall he had a lesser role

How so? This seems a lot like hindsight. This is a post from February 2015:

Fischella wrote:He is unreal.
Best player of Barcelona right now, and Barcelona is a top3 team in Europe.
If he was in NCAA, no doubt he is a top3 pick.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1321828&p=42768411&hilit=hezonja#p42768411

And he was 7th on your big board in June 2015.

Spoiler:

getrichordie · Post #155 » by **getrichordie** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:20 am

Spoiler:

Weirdest tier system I've ever seen :nod:

Post #156 » by **GimmeDat** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:14 am

getrichordie wrote:
Weirdest tier system I've ever seen

Fischella wrote:Tiers are firstly supposed to be limited, and then grow bigger as they go, it's just obvious, you can't have a tier in the 40s-50s with 5 guys my man, it's just anti-what tiers are

Fischella wrote:You can do whatever you want, but it's wrong and basically anti every math rule that you can come up with, that's just objective facts

Fischella wrote:To pretend that you can actually delineate and break down the value of players that you rank so low is just naive and disingenuous, it's just a moot point, you can't that's why you are ranking them so low, it's inherent to their value and rank

You do you, and do whatever you want, but it's indeed wrong, it's the nature of the data

RiotPunch · Post #157 » by **RiotPunch** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:33 am

getrichordie · Post #158 » by **getrichordie** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:38 am

Read on Twitter

No-Man · Post #159 » by **No-Man** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:10 am

The-Power wrote:
Fischella wrote:Hezonja was always bad lol plus a terrible guy to have around

Hezonja was a year older, fully, and he played worse for a worse team, yeah he played a bit more in Euroleague, but overall he had a lesser role

How so? This seems a lot like hindsight. This is a post from February 2015:

Fischella wrote:He is unreal.
Best player of Barcelona right now, and Barcelona is a top3 team in Europe.
If he was in NCAA, no doubt he is a top3 pick.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1321828&p=42768411&hilit=hezonja#p42768411

And he was 7th on your big board in June 2015.
Spoiler:
Fischella wrote:Right as today,

Tier 1

Jahlil Okafor
Emmanuel Mudiay
D'Angelo Russell
Karl Anthony Towns Jr.
Kristaps Porzingis
Justise Winslow
Mario Hezonja

Tier 2

Kelly Oubre
Tyus Jones
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
Myles Turner
Cameron Payne
Frank Kaminsky
Bobby Portis

Tier 3

Stanley Johnson
Devin Booker
Jordan Mickey
Jerian Grant
Willie Cauley-Stein
Delon Wright
Justin Anderson

Tier 4

Trey Lyles
Cliff Alexander
Kevon Looney
Michael Frazier
Sam Dekker
Montrezl Harrell
RJ Hunter

Tier 5

Willy Hernangómez
Terry Rozier
Cedi Osman
Mam Jaiteh
Nikola Milutinov
Brandon Ashley
Jarell Martin

Tier 6

Christian Wood
Rashad Vaughn
Dakari Johnson
Jonathan Holmes
JP Tokoto
Norman Powell
Olivier Hanlan

Tier 7

Chris McCullough
Robert Upshaw
Aaron Harrison
Arturas Gudaitis
Larry Nance Jr.
Richaun Holmes
Anthony Brown

7 tiers of 7 players each.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393491&p=44011193&hilit=hezonja#p44011193

lol I know but you learn over time my man, I didn't know like 1% of what I know about bball know back then, that's all, it has been 5 years, as it is evident by that trash of a board :lol:

I also heard a lot about Mario after the fact, I am obviously taking that into account, I also overrated the flashes, like a lot of others did as well, not sure how this is relevant or makes my post less of a reality truly

Did he play a bit more in EuroLeague but overall his season was worse for a worse team and he was less important? yes, was he a year older? yeah, was he a conflictive guy and a difficult character to have around? I guarantee you that too

So not really sure what are you trying to accomplish here? brought me a laugh though, thanks for the memories

No-Man · Post #160 » by **No-Man** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:11 am

GimmeDat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Weirdest tier system I've ever seen

Fischella wrote:Tiers are firstly supposed to be limited, and then grow bigger as they go, it's just obvious, you can't have a tier in the 40s-50s with 5 guys my man, it's just anti-what tiers are

Fischella wrote:You can do whatever you want, but it's wrong and basically anti every math rule that you can come up with, that's just objective facts

Fischella wrote:To pretend that you can actually delineate and break down the value of players that you rank so low is just naive and disingenuous, it's just a moot point, you can't that's why you are ranking them so low, it's inherent to their value and rank

You do you, and do whatever you want, but it's indeed wrong, it's the nature of the data

I mean, I learned, took me only 1 year after that really, in your case it's been 5 and you keep doing it wrong :wink: