Deni Avdija - 2020 draft

Draft talk all year round

Moderators: Marcus, Duke4life831

User avatar
GimmeDat
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 23,915
And1: 16,880
Joined: Sep 27, 2013
Location: Australia
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#161 » by GimmeDat » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:40 am

Fischella wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Weirdest tier system I've ever seen :nod:


Fischella wrote:Tiers are firstly supposed to be limited, and then grow bigger as they go, it's just obvious, you can't have a tier in the 40s-50s with 5 guys my man, it's just anti-what tiers are


Fischella wrote:You can do whatever you want, but it's wrong and basically anti every math rule that you can come up with, that's just objective facts


Fischella wrote:To pretend that you can actually delineate and break down the value of players that you rank so low is just naive and disingenuous, it's just a moot point, you can't that's why you are ranking them so low, it's inherent to their value and rank

You do you, and do whatever you want, but it's indeed wrong, it's the nature of the data

I mean, I learned, took me only 1 year after that really, in your case it's been 5 and you keep doing it wrong :wink:


Was just having a bit of a light hearted dig there my man, but we've had that disagreement, I won't re-hash it.
The-Power
General Manager
Posts: 9,679
And1: 9,087
Joined: Jan 03, 2014
Location: Germany
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#162 » by The-Power » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:40 am

Fischella wrote:lol I know but you learn over time my man, I didn't know like 1% of what I know about bball know back then, that's all, it has been 5 years, as it is evident by that trash of a board :lol:

I also heard a lot about Mario after the fact, I am obviously taking that into account, I also overrated the flashes, like a lot of others did as well, not sure how this is relevant or makes my post less of a reality truly

Did he play a bit more in EuroLeague but overall his season was worse for a worse team and he was less important? yes, was he a year older? yeah, was he a conflictive guy and a difficult character to have around? I guarantee you that too

So not really sure what are you trying to accomplish here? brought me a laugh though, thanks for the memories

Of course everybody learns (well, you'd hope so). I wasn't trying to show you up but you come in here and throw around statements such as:
Avdija played more than Hezonja, Bender and Kurucs for a way better team, he showed more, just stop it, talking about him as if he were a marginal guy (like those dudes) for Maccabi this year is just ridiculous

Hezonja was always bad lol plus a terrible guy to have around


So what you're doing here is being condescending to people comparing Avdija to Hezonja as EuroLeague players and say it's ridiculous; you claim that Hezonja has always been bad and make it seem as if this has always been obvious. And then I recalled correctly that you were in fact pretty high on Hezonja and have been raving about him. So yeah, that doesn't match. And sure, using hindsight makes sense and is appropriate – but it's not appropriate to appear as if people should have known all along and that comparisons are ridiculous when you yourself have been raving about the player back then.

OT: Just some food for thought: you seemed as confident in your opinions about players back then as you seem today. What makes you believe that what you believe now is that much more accurate and obviously true when you yourself now judge your own views of the past harshly, when most likely you believed exactly that, too? And if you don't believe that, then why are looking down on other people's opinions the way you seem to do and post overconfident opinions? Reacting to other people's not-obviously-crazy opinions the way you're doing in this thread and some others (‘just stop it’, ‘ridiculous’, ‘not how it works at all’, ‘lol’) is – in my view – just having a poor approach to discussions and it looks weird when you have had such strong opinions in the past about players on which you've been obviously wrong with hindsight.

Not sure how the others feel, so I can only speak for myself. But I like your insights and I do believe you have an eye for talent and knowledge about the NBA draft. Still, a bit more humility in the light of incorrect assessment in the past would help the quality of your posts and the discussions you're involved in a lot. Everybody is wrong on prospects and everybody is entitled to learn from past mistakes and change their views – but that also means that everybody should take that into account when engaging with others and dealing with other people's opinions that differ from ours. That shows character, in my view.

But I'll leave it at that (it's off-topic now, but I found it nonetheless important to post it once); in the end it's your and everybody's own decision as to how to conduct yourself, and I can't expect anybody on a messaging board to take such advice to heart. Just a quick last note: I work in academia/research and the greatest minds of my particular field tend to be rightfully confident but at the same time very aware of the limits of their knowledge and the fact that what they believe or contend is not some kind of indisputable and obvious truth – and they discuss and reflect accordingly.
User avatar
GimmeDat
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 23,915
And1: 16,880
Joined: Sep 27, 2013
Location: Australia
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#163 » by GimmeDat » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:20 pm

I concur. Fisch, we absolutely value you on the board. But it makes no sense to come at others with that tone when you yourself have in the past have been guilty of the same views in the past. You have some unique perspectives and insights, but it often appears that you don't have it in you to truly believe that others on this board do too.

I have no interest in being petty, derailing threads, etc. I would encourage you not just to show a greater level of restraint in your tone to boost the level of discourse, but to actually reconsider the mindset that tone is coming from. We all have different perspectives and knowledge to share, we're all learning, and there's all plenty we don't know. The draft in particular is (to a degree) a crapshoot, even for the best evaluators in the world.

Similar to the point from The-Power above, there is every bit the same chance that future you would mock current you, as you laugh at past 'you's ignorance. Same with us all. Let's chat about our thoughts instead of tearing others down.

Anyway, to the discussion at hand, I remember liking Hezonja back in the day. How high, I can't remember, but I did like him. It was also only my 2nd year or so looking in to draft stuff, and I'd only ever watched highlights, never extended footage.. and with a flashes guy like Hezonja, he's the perfect guy to get an overinflated opinion of.


Going to preface this by saying I haven't watched full games of Avdija either, but I have seen significantly more of him to have a more nuanced opinion. Putting aside actual production comparisons, I think the biggest difference it appears to me that Deni can actually handle, pass and has decent feel for the game. Obviously the shooting is going to be a massive swing skill for him (as is any prospect who is a questionable shooter these days, to be frank), but at the end of the day it's hard to bet against those guys that know how to play basketball. There's many more factors you can go into.. I like Deni's added size, I think he'll be able to play plenty of PF mins, he's to me a more functional athlete, and tying into that, a much better defender. Of course even prior to the draft, Hezonja's attitude was highlighted as well.. those cocky pre-draft quotes are always a bit of a red flag.. Deni seems more mature, well spoken and intelligent.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#164 » by clyde21 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:27 pm

looks like Deni is now the most polarizing prospect this class? maybe Lamelo?
The-Power
General Manager
Posts: 9,679
And1: 9,087
Joined: Jan 03, 2014
Location: Germany
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#165 » by The-Power » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:09 pm

clyde21 wrote:looks like Deni is now the most polarizing prospect this class? maybe Lamelo?

A lot of polarizing prospects in this draft: Ball, Edwards, Avdija, Maxey, Wiseman. Not sure who the ‘most polarizing’ is, though. Feels like Avdija doesn't have enough talk about him to be the most polarizing one when it comes to debates, but maybe when it comes to big boards? I'd still say Wiseman and, if we're going a bit lower but still relatively high, Maxey tend to have the largest range on big boards.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#166 » by clyde21 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:15 pm

The-Power wrote:
clyde21 wrote:looks like Deni is now the most polarizing prospect this class? maybe Lamelo?

A lot of polarizing prospects in this draft: Ball, Edwards, Avdija, Maxey, Wiseman. Not sure who the ‘most polarizing’ is, though. Feels like Avdija doesn't have enough talk about him to be the most polarizing one when it comes to debates, but maybe when it comes to big boards? I'd still say Wiseman and, if we're going a bit lower but still relatively high, Maxey tend to have the largest range on big boards.


for sure a lot in this class, last year I think the big one was Reddish but not as much as this year that's for sure

Wiseman is polarizing as well yea, but I believe the majority of people have him in their top10 at least
User avatar
GimmeDat
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 23,915
And1: 16,880
Joined: Sep 27, 2013
Location: Australia
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#167 » by GimmeDat » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:21 am

I'm curious to know who has Avdija the lowest. I know some are 'lower' on him, but I haven't seen him far out of the top 10 or anything anywhere. I think he's polarizing, but not nearly to the same extent as someone like Reddish last year. To be fair, Reddish was one of the most polarizing prospects I'd seen in years.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#168 » by clyde21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:31 am

GimmeDat wrote:I'm curious to know who has Avdija the lowest. I know some are 'lower' on him, but I haven't seen him far out of the top 10 or anything anywhere. I think he's polarizing, but not nearly to the same extent as someone like Reddish last year. To be fair, Reddish was one of the most polarizing prospects I'd seen in years.


Doncic was for sure the most polarizing of all time, his threads were insane

btw I have Deni 21st overall, but I don't feel strongly either way on him tbh, but late teens / early 20s feels like a good spot for him at this point
User avatar
God Squad
RealGM
Posts: 12,218
And1: 10,181
Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#169 » by God Squad » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:40 am

clyde21 wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:I'm curious to know who has Avdija the lowest. I know some are 'lower' on him, but I haven't seen him far out of the top 10 or anything anywhere. I think he's polarizing, but not nearly to the same extent as someone like Reddish last year. To be fair, Reddish was one of the most polarizing prospects I'd seen in years.


Doncic was for sure the most polarizing of all time, his threads were insane

btw I have Deni 21st overall, but I don't feel strongly either way on him tbh, but late teens / early 20s feels like a good spot for him at this point

Doncic and Reddish for sure. Doncic comps were ridiculous especially if you watched him and Dragic destroy FIBA competition. Reddish was a little more understandable. But was drafted for physical attributes and potential.
Image
User avatar
UcanUwill
RealGM
Posts: 27,442
And1: 28,701
Joined: Aug 07, 2011
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#170 » by UcanUwill » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:06 pm

I dont think Doncic was that much of polarizing, his floor seemed relatively high and it was his ceiling that seemed to have the most question marks. Some guys had him as generational talent for obvious reasons, and some, mostly people who know nothing of Euro ball thought hes a bust, and those were the people that drove all his threads to no end, but big picture I think most agreed that he is top 2 pick in the draft.

I know nothing of this draft, but if Avdija is a top 10 pick, thats a weak draft, people who expect next Doncic will be highly disappointed. I see him more of defensive minded pick to be honest, 6'9 who can guard multiple positions, and offensively he can push fast break after getting a rebound, but he is not a guy who will be offensive or scoring maestro. I would rather have Zagars and develop him, and I know Zagars is awful in Juventud, not an impact player at all, but I rather develop him than Avdija, its an offensive shooting league.
Bob8
General Manager
Posts: 8,524
And1: 3,552
Joined: Feb 08, 2017

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#171 » by Bob8 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:58 pm

Fischella wrote:Avdija played more than Hezonja, Bender and Kurucs for a way better team, he showed more, just stop it, talking about him as if he were a marginal guy (like those dudes) for Maccabi this year is just ridiculous


4/2.5/1 with bad shooting % is a marginal guy. Nobody cares for Israeli league. And he had 4/2.5/1 only because Maccabi was hit by injuries. Hezonja at least looked like someone with big balls. Avdija looks like perfectly content benchwarmer.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#172 » by clyde21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:02 pm

UcanUwill wrote:I dont think Doncic was that much of polarizing, his floor seemed relatively high and it was his ceiling that seemed to have the most question marks. Some guys had him as generational talent for obvious reasons, and some, mostly people who know nothing of Euro ball thought hes a bust, and those were the people that drove all his threads to no end, but big picture I think most agreed that he is top 2 pick in the draft.

I know nothing of this draft, but if Avdija is a top 10 pick, thats a weak draft, people who expect next Doncic will be highly disappointed. I see him more of defensive minded pick to be honest, 6'9 who can guard multiple positions, and offensively he can push fast break after getting a rebound, but he is not a guy who will be offensive or scoring maestro. I would rather have Zagars and develop him, and I know Zagars is awful in Juventud, not an impact player at all, but I rather develop him than Avdija, its an offensive shooting league.



lol...Doncic had three 100 page threads just on him, he was the most argued and talked about and polarizing prospect on this board ever, not even a discussion
User avatar
UcanUwill
RealGM
Posts: 27,442
And1: 28,701
Joined: Aug 07, 2011
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#173 » by UcanUwill » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:05 pm

clyde21 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:I dont think Doncic was that much of polarizing, his floor seemed relatively high and it was his ceiling that seemed to have the most question marks. Some guys had him as generational talent for obvious reasons, and some, mostly people who know nothing of Euro ball thought hes a bust, and those were the people that drove all his threads to no end, but big picture I think most agreed that he is top 2 pick in the draft.

I know nothing of this draft, but if Avdija is a top 10 pick, thats a weak draft, people who expect next Doncic will be highly disappointed. I see him more of defensive minded pick to be honest, 6'9 who can guard multiple positions, and offensively he can push fast break after getting a rebound, but he is not a guy who will be offensive or scoring maestro. I would rather have Zagars and develop him, and I know Zagars is awful in Juventud, not an impact player at all, but I rather develop him than Avdija, its an offensive shooting league.



lol...Doncic had three 100 page threads just on him, he was the most argued and talked about and polarizing prospect on this board ever, not even a discussion


He was most talked about because it was crazy what hes been doing at his age, but he wasnt polarizing. Thread was driven by like 2 guys who never saw an Euro game calling him bust, and everyone else who defended him, thats polarizing? Anyone can go out of the way and troll a consensus, you need more than that to make it polarizing. Everyone outside few clowns on the internet had him going top 2 in the draft and being extremely safe pick.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#174 » by clyde21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:07 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:I dont think Doncic was that much of polarizing, his floor seemed relatively high and it was his ceiling that seemed to have the most question marks. Some guys had him as generational talent for obvious reasons, and some, mostly people who know nothing of Euro ball thought hes a bust, and those were the people that drove all his threads to no end, but big picture I think most agreed that he is top 2 pick in the draft.

I know nothing of this draft, but if Avdija is a top 10 pick, thats a weak draft, people who expect next Doncic will be highly disappointed. I see him more of defensive minded pick to be honest, 6'9 who can guard multiple positions, and offensively he can push fast break after getting a rebound, but he is not a guy who will be offensive or scoring maestro. I would rather have Zagars and develop him, and I know Zagars is awful in Juventud, not an impact player at all, but I rather develop him than Avdija, its an offensive shooting league.



lol...Doncic had three 100 page threads just on him, he was the most argued and talked about and polarizing prospect on this board ever, not even a discussion


He was most talked about because it was crazy what hes been doing at his age, but he wasnt polarizing. Thread was driven by like 2 guys who never saw an Euro game calling him bust, and everyone else who defended him, thats polarizing? Everyone outside few clowns on the internet had him going top 2 in the draft and being extremely safe pick.


we don't have to argue about this, the threads are all there, go look at them

u think he had 3 100 page threads of people just talking about his performance? :lol:
User avatar
UcanUwill
RealGM
Posts: 27,442
And1: 28,701
Joined: Aug 07, 2011
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#175 » by UcanUwill » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:17 pm

clyde21 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
clyde21 wrote:

lol...Doncic had three 100 page threads just on him, he was the most argued and talked about and polarizing prospect on this board ever, not even a discussion


He was most talked about because it was crazy what hes been doing at his age, but he wasnt polarizing. Thread was driven by like 2 guys who never saw an Euro game calling him bust, and everyone else who defended him, thats polarizing? Everyone outside few clowns on the internet had him going top 2 in the draft and being extremely safe pick.


we don't have to argue about this, the threads are all there, go look at them

u think he had 3 100 page threads of people just talking about his performance? :lol:


As I said, you need more than few trolls to troll the consensus to make it polarizing. We Euros like to talk about good Euroleague guys over here, thats the only chance we ever get, when Doncic would play we would always get at least few pages of Euro fans just doing color comentating in the thread, you never get that with college guy. Avdija has 9 page thread and this guy is 10th. man on the depth chart in Israel.
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#176 » by clyde21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:50 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
He was most talked about because it was crazy what hes been doing at his age, but he wasnt polarizing. Thread was driven by like 2 guys who never saw an Euro game calling him bust, and everyone else who defended him, thats polarizing? Everyone outside few clowns on the internet had him going top 2 in the draft and being extremely safe pick.


we don't have to argue about this, the threads are all there, go look at them

u think he had 3 100 page threads of people just talking about his performance? :lol:


As I said, you need more than few trolls to troll the consensus to make it polarizing. We Euros like to talk about good Euroleague guys over here, thats the only chance we ever get, when Doncic would play we would always get at least few pages of Euro fans just doing color comentating in the thread, you never get that with college guy. Avdija has 9 page thread and this guy is 10th. man on the depth chart in Israel.


it was more than a few trolls, the discussions on Doncic were some of the most heated I've ever seen on here, you don't get to 3 100-page threads because of a 'few trolls'
User avatar
clyde21
RealGM
Posts: 61,698
And1: 69,195
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#177 » by clyde21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:50 pm

i stand corrected, Luka's 3rd thread was actually 170 pages :lol:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1683998&p=69259820&hilit=Luka+Doncic#p69259820
Stillwater
RealGM
Posts: 15,734
And1: 3,655
Joined: Jun 15, 2017
   

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#178 » by Stillwater » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:13 pm

who?
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING
User avatar
UcanUwill
RealGM
Posts: 27,442
And1: 28,701
Joined: Aug 07, 2011
 

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#179 » by UcanUwill » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:11 pm

clyde21 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
we don't have to argue about this, the threads are all there, go look at them

u think he had 3 100 page threads of people just talking about his performance? :lol:


As I said, you need more than few trolls to troll the consensus to make it polarizing. We Euros like to talk about good Euroleague guys over here, thats the only chance we ever get, when Doncic would play we would always get at least few pages of Euro fans just doing color comentating in the thread, you never get that with college guy. Avdija has 9 page thread and this guy is 10th. man on the depth chart in Israel.


it was more than a few trolls, the discussions on Doncic were some of the most heated I've ever seen on here, you don't get to 3 100-page threads because of a 'few trolls'


If you asked sports people and fans before the draft what they think of Doncic, I bet 70% would have said he will be awesome, 10% he will bust, and 20% would say hes gonna be underwhelming like Rubio. If you ask the same about Lamelo, I bet opinions numbers would be far more polarizing.
Mirotic12
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,446
And1: 2,482
Joined: Jun 29, 2014

Re: Deni Avdija - 2020 draft 

Post#180 » by Mirotic12 » Fri May 1, 2020 3:12 pm

Fischella wrote:Avdija played more than Hezonja, Bender and Kurucs for a way better team, he showed more, just stop it, talking about him as if he were a marginal guy (like those dudes) for Maccabi this year is just ridiculous


I wasn't comparing Avdija to those players - I even said I like him more than them. I was clearly just saying that it's not correct to say Avdija's production was negatively effected due to his coach, because he's too young and EuroLeague hates young players, etc. All those same arguments being made about those three above players, and also not being correct.

As others here have pointed out, EuroLeague coaches are playing whatever is their best player and best option, and using them based on what is best, simply because they are in win now mode. The argument that because they are in win now mode, that they "don't use young players properly", is an argument that was started sometime in recent years by USA sports media and NBA fans, and it's just not true. It also really does not make any sense.

If you are win now mode, it is actually the exact opposite of that. You don't care at all about "seniority", about how old players are, how experienced they are, or whatever. You care simply about how good they are and how much they can help the team win games. That's it. And in fact, that is exactly how it is in EuroLeague. If a guy is only 16, 17 and he is good enough to help a team win games, then he's playing 100% for sure without any doubt, over a 25-35 year old veteran that isn't as good as him. So the way many NBA fans perceive how the EuroLeague uses young players is completely wrong.

Return to NBA Draft