Obi Toppin/Dayton Flyers

Monix · Post #121 » by **Monix** » Sat May 23, 2020 2:52 pm

Obi shoots it better but he's not nearly the explosive athlete that Amar'e was at his age

King Ken · Post #122 » by **King Ken** » Sat May 23, 2020 4:11 pm

getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Gonna disagree here. Stoudemire’s D was above average for years before injury issues took him down a notch. Stats back this up.

I have Toppin being bottom 30 percentile on defense. He’s just not very good on that end. One thing to have an impact on a weak conference. Another thing to have one in NBA. And I’m not sure Toppin is the reason why Dayton had success on defense as Toppin graded out in the 30th percentile on defense... Pretty sure they just had a cake schedule.

When you get some time, go read the defensive write ups on Toppin on the Stepien. It’s pretty illuminating for the 22 year old.

I watched a lot of Suns Basketball. Hell, I just watched several games in full recently when Amar'e was in year 3. His defense was extremely similar to Toppin from a mobility stance. Hell, Toppin is smarter going by the film.

Dayton plays a good schedule similar to Gonzaga but the A-10 is stronger than the WCC so he plays a stronger conference schedule. To say he probably had a cake schedule is simply not doing your homework well enough.

Spencer is a great guy, he also wrote this as his high-end:
above average defender if interior defense improves, improves footwork and technique on perimeter to reach average levels in space

I am not sure how you have him as part of the 30 percentile. His team defense metrics on that end are good.

DWS/40 is .094 DRTG 90.3 DBPM 3.3. None of this is marks of a 30 percentile defender. This is actually part of the 70 percentile.

I really wish we would chill with the 22 yo stuff. His maturation process at this stage is more in line with a 19-20-year-old than a 22-year-old. He's only been this tall for a year. He's grown every year since his Junior year of HS where he was 6'2 180. This is why you can't judge an older prospect like Siakam the same way you can judge one like Tyler Hansbrough. Experience, Basketball maturity and feel for the game varies with different players.

Fair enough. I'll concede my point on Amare before everyone loses their minds...

According to KenPom, Dayton played the 105th hardest schedule (203rd hardest NCSOS)... (103rd OppO/105th OppD)

I'd say that's pretty cake relative to other prospects coming out... Never said Gonzaga had a hard schedule so not sure how that got lumped in there, but good to know?

Both teams aren't Power 5. That shouldn't dismiss how good they are and say his defense didn't matter. When UNLV was playing games in the Big West, it wasn't a Power 5 either.

King Ken · Post #123 » by **King Ken** » Sat May 23, 2020 4:18 pm

Monix wrote:Obi shoots it better but he's not nearly the explosive athlete that Amar'e was at his age

I was actually thinking about this last month for both Toppin/Amar'e/Griffin.

Amar'e didn't play college but Griffin did. I was shocked. Toppin was more explosive and a better dunker. I assumed Griffin was. Explosiveness wise, Toppin and Amar'e look too close too call but Toppin was clearly more explosive than Griffin based on the college tape. The one thing about the NBA is it's a lot easier to dunk than college due to spacing. There is a great chance Toppin will be super-highlight for the next 5 years.

Watch on YouTube

Added Chris Webber as well

Watch on YouTube

Monix · Post #124 » by **Monix** » Sat May 23, 2020 5:59 pm

Obi's not the functional athlete that any of those 3 (Amar'e, Blake, Webber) were - he may jump high straight up but he doesn't have the lateral movement that any of those 3 had pre-injuries.

If he did he'd be the undisputed #1 in this weak class.

King Ken · Post #125 » by **King Ken** » Sat May 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Monix wrote:Obi's not the functional athlete that any of those 3 (Amar'e, Blake, Webber) were - he may jump high straight up but he doesn't have the lateral movement that any of those 3 had pre-injuries.

If he did he'd be the undisputed #1 in this weak class.

I don't know about that. He is just as functional an athlete as they are. Lateral movements, which one of them had good lateral movements? Blake is the closest from my scout. C. Webb really never had to guard the perimeter in his era so NA. I have seen Amar'e in his youth and laterally, he was pretty damn bad

Watch on YouTube

karkinos · Post #126 » by **karkinos** » Sat May 23, 2020 10:17 pm

if amare had lateral movement, he definitely didn't use it to defend anyone, ever.

King Ken · Post #127 » by **King Ken** » Sat May 23, 2020 11:39 pm

karkinos wrote:if amare had lateral movement, he definitely didn't use it to defend anyone, ever.

My man said Amar'e before injuries and I was like, huh!

getrichordie · Post #128 » by **getrichordie** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:59 am

Read on Twitter

Post #129 » by **Klomp** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:29 am

While one is generally more viewed as SF/PF and the other PF/C, I think Toppin has a similar athletic profile as Miles Bridges but three inches taller.

King Ken · Post #130 » by **King Ken** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:41 am

getrichordie wrote::lol:

Read on Twitter

I noticed people who don't like him are giving him the James Harden treatment when his defensive metrics paint him as a solid college defender. I seen this dog and pony show before.

getrichordie · Post #131 » by **getrichordie** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:10 am

King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote::lol:

Read on Twitter

I noticed people who don't like him are giving him the James Harden treatment when his defensive metrics paint him as a solid college defender. I seen this dog and pony show before.

As we all know, rim-protection starts on the perimeter and Dayton had a couple of nice defensive guys. Toppin played his role decently well -- he was effectively a 5 in college on D where he was much more physically advanced than most of his comp. That won't be so at the next level. He will be a 4.

Yeah, he's that bad. Even Toppin supporters can see how stiff he is on defense...

King Ken · Post #132 » by **King Ken** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:45 pm

getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote::lol:

Read on Twitter

I noticed people who don't like him are giving him the James Harden treatment when his defensive metrics paint him as a solid college defender. I seen this dog and pony show before.

As we all know, rim-protection starts on the perimeter and Dayton had a couple of nice defensive guys. Toppin played his role decently well -- he was effectively a 5 in college on D where he was much more physically advanced than most of his comp. That won't be so at the next level. He will be a 4.

Yeah, he's that bad. Even Toppin supporters can see how stiff he is on defense...

Having poor lateral quickness and needing to working on his awareness on occasional possessions doesn't equal horrible defender. He clearly has real improvement areas but what's going on is the James Harden where a guy has some clearly **** possessions, he lacks lateral quickness on switches and PnR on defense and clearly not expected to be a plus defender but there is job to showcase **** possessions and be like, see trash. That's that James Harden nonsense. His defense is going to be rough in year 1 but he's not that rough. He has a great general feel for the game and high BBIQ and the game is mentally slow for him. He could figure out how to be an effective defender just based on those ideals. It's no guarantee but let's be clear. I seen **** defenders like Jabari, Damian, and some others. I've even seen 42 year old VC being a good defender with shot lateral quickness. This is a mental game. Understanding defense is better than just having tools and having no idea how to use it. But I get it, it will provide limitations in a larger scale in the playoffs but let's get to that point first. This I'd how Luka wasn't a lock for #1 overall.

Revenged25 · Post #133 » by **Revenged25** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:36 pm

Any chance Toppin can play the 3 or would he be like Tobias Harris playing 3?

BlazersBroncos · Post #134 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:42 pm

Any chance Toppin can play the 3 or would he be like Tobias Harris playing 3?

He is much farther away from being a 3 than Tobias Harris. He is a 4/5 through and through. It would be like playing Vin Baker at the 3, who I have as my comparison for him (Vertically explosive on offense, horrid defensive instincts, arguable whether they seriously help a team win despite nice stats). Baker was on another planet in terms of offensive rebounding though. Its pretty scary when a guy with Toppin's athletic gifts manages only 1.2 ORB per game. How is that possible?

Revenged25 · Post #135 » by **Revenged25** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:48 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
Any chance Toppin can play the 3 or would he be like Tobias Harris playing 3?

He is much farther away from being a 3 than Tobias Harris. He is a 4/5 through and through. It would be like playing Vin Baker at the 3, who I have as my comparison for him (Vertically explosive on offense, horrid defensive instincts, arguable whether they seriously help a team win despite nice stats). Baker was on another planet in terms of offensive rebounding though. Its pretty scary when a guy with Toppin's athletic gifts manages only 1.2 ORB per game. How is that possible?

With all the mocks putting Toppin to the Cavs, which I think isn't something the Cavs will do, I figured I would at least ask.

BlazersBroncos · Post #136 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:51 pm

Any chance Toppin can play the 3 or would he be like Tobias Harris playing 3?

He is much farther away from being a 3 than Tobias Harris. He is a 4/5 through and through. It would be like playing Vin Baker at the 3, who I have as my comparison for him (Vertically explosive on offense, horrid defensive instincts, arguable whether they seriously help a team win despite nice stats). Baker was on another planet in terms of offensive rebounding though. Its pretty scary when a guy with Toppin's athletic gifts manages only 1.2 ORB per game. How is that possible?

kobyz · Post #137 » by **kobyz** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:53 am

He is a more athletic Rui Hochimora

pcbothwel · Post #138 » by **pcbothwel** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:32 pm

kobyz wrote:He is a more athletic Rui Hochimora

Not a bad comp, but Rui has a higher ceiling as an overall scorer and defensively. They have almost identical stat lines while Rui played against tougher competition, was a year younger when drafted, and started playing basketball later as a teenager.

As Rui settles in, he will be able to guard 3/4's, while Toppin is really a 5 that can guard some 4's. I have ZERO faith in Toppin's defense ever panning out, while you can at least the signs with Rui

MasterIchiro · Post #139 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:31 am

Agree with everyone who sees Amar'e in Toppin. I had the same gut reaction when I first started following him. Watched a bunch of Suns Amar'e. Toppin is his match as an athlete and scorer. Athleticism isn't just for jumping, it's for running the floor and creating separation through the transition game. Toppin's scoring efficiency is in line with Amar'e. He's a scoring machine. And no Amar'e did not play solid D. He was known for it and exploited for it. He still made the All-Star game both as a PF and a C. If you hate Toppin as a prospect you don't believe in his offense. But the numbers, measurable a like wingspan, athleticism, sure hands, shooting, finishing, dunking, running the floor, all point to Toppin being a monster on offense.

King Ken · Post #140 » by **King Ken** » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:34 am

MasterIchiro wrote:Agree with everyone who sees Amar'e in Toppin. I had the same gut reaction when I first started following him. Watched a bunch of Suns Amar'e. Toppin is his match as an athlete and scorer. Athleticism isn't just for jumping, it's for running the floor and creating separation through the transition game. Toppin's scoring efficiency is in line with Amar'e. He's a scoring machine. And no Amar'e did not play solid D. He was known for it and exploited for it. He still made the All-Star game both as a PF and a C. If you hate Toppin as a prospect you don't believe in his offense. But the numbers, measurable a like wingspan, athleticism, sure hands, shooting, finishing, dunking, running the floor, all point to Toppin being a monster on offense.

99% of the people I see that don't believe in him don't believe in his offense. No one is going to call you Derrick Williams 2.0 if they believe in your offense. Skeptics do believe in his offense but hate his defense. Fans of Toppin like me believe in his offense and while defense is going to be a work in progress, he's smart enough to make an decent impact on that end as his career progresses in time.