2020 NBA Draft II

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1141 » by getrichordie » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:03 am

Spoiler:
RiotPunch wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:Probably no convincing you at this point, but I think you are focusing way too much on the negatives with Bane.

Removing the length/finishing/lateral quickness issues (and those are legitimate), you have:

-Arguably the best overall shooter in the class, considering shot versatility profile. Elite movement shooter, great pull-up, great C&S, etc.
-A more than capable ancillary playmaker out of PnR, a very decisive passer.
-A highly intelligent and communicative team defender, one of the best off-ball defenders in this class. Pristine rotations, switchability, disruptive in passing lanes.
-A player with impeccable footwork.
-A 22 year old, 6'5" wing with a rumored standing reach of 8'4" and a 41" max vertical, with an NBA-ready body.

It's a copycat league, and teams are going to try to replicate the Bucks' drop coverage which encourages funneling players from the perimeter to the paint, where they meet your rim-protector. Just an example, but this mitigates the importance of on-ball defense, and amplifies the importance of team defense, where Bane flourishes.

Drafting that guy Top-25 is not insane at all, IMO. Having a 36 spot difference in ranking between Nesmith and Bane sounds more insane to me than that.


Am I supposed to be impressed by a 8’4 standing reach?

It’s one thing to succeed in certain areas in college and another thing in the NBA.

Bane’s passing out of P&R is entirely dependent on his threat as a driver. In the NBA, he won’t be a threat because his change of direction is way too bad.

I understand what drop coverage is, but I don’t think you understand Bane’s physical limitations. He gets away with having short arms at the college level, but if you think that is going to work at the NBA level, you are going to be surprised when players are scoring over the top of him with ease and he’s a non-factor in the land of giants.

If he was as good as you say he is, he would have already been drafted, yet here we are with Bane as a 4-year college guy.

It helps ease the blow of his 6' 4.25" wingspan. He has basically identical length measurables to Svi Mykhailiuk while being stronger and more athletic than Svi. A couple of other guys with 8'4" S/R include Dillon Brooks and Joe Harris.

It is not entirely based on his threat as a driver, he has the threat of a pull-up which will allow him to manipulate defenders and create passing lanes.

I don't think his athletic shortcomings are as damning as you make them out to be. He actually has impressive vertical pop, he is just limited laterally, and his standing reach is sufficient for him to survive in the land of the giants, IMO.


I see what you are saying about easing the blow. But can you show me footage of his pull-up shooting? I've seen him hit ONE pull-up 3 and 1 step back 3. The vast majority of his 3s come on C&S from what I've seen. Not sure how that is considered versatile. Most of them being wide open, but he has shown he can hit 3s when contested.

I do buy his ability to hit 3s off of movement and defend really well off-ball and run P&Rs in emergency situations, but wouldn't ask him to reliably run actions. I do think he can bother shots at the rim sometimes, but overall, I just don't see that as being such a positive trait that it is a factor when deciding whether or not to take him over another guy. I do think you can count on him not being a complete dud on either end of the floor if he needs to fill minutes for an injured guy.

Also, his FT% isn't great for a senior guard.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1142 » by MemphisX » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:07 am

I thought Desmond Bane was an obvious bench scorer fit on almost any NBA team in any system. Dude just looks like an NBA player. Wouldn't shock me if he is in the rotation of a good team as a rookie.

Corrected.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1143 » by getrichordie » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:11 am

MemphisX wrote:I thought Desmond Bane was an obvious bench scorer fit on almost any NBA team in any system. Dude just looks like an NBA player. Wouldn't shock me if he isn't in the rotation of a good team as a rookie.


Me either. :lol:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1144 » by MemphisX » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:15 am

lmao...typo got me
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1145 » by RiotPunch » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:27 am

getrichordie wrote:
Spoiler:
RiotPunch wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Am I supposed to be impressed by a 8’4 standing reach?

It’s one thing to succeed in certain areas in college and another thing in the NBA.

Bane’s passing out of P&R is entirely dependent on his threat as a driver. In the NBA, he won’t be a threat because his change of direction is way too bad.

I understand what drop coverage is, but I don’t think you understand Bane’s physical limitations. He gets away with having short arms at the college level, but if you think that is going to work at the NBA level, you are going to be surprised when players are scoring over the top of him with ease and he’s a non-factor in the land of giants.

If he was as good as you say he is, he would have already been drafted, yet here we are with Bane as a 4-year college guy.

It helps ease the blow of his 6' 4.25" wingspan. He has basically identical length measurables to Svi Mykhailiuk while being stronger and more athletic than Svi. A couple of other guys with 8'4" S/R include Dillon Brooks and Joe Harris.

It is not entirely based on his threat as a driver, he has the threat of a pull-up which will allow him to manipulate defenders and create passing lanes.

I don't think his athletic shortcomings are as damning as you make them out to be. He actually has impressive vertical pop, he is just limited laterally, and his standing reach is sufficient for him to survive in the land of the giants, IMO.


Spoiler:
I see what you are saying about easing the blow. But can you show me footage of his pull-up shooting? I've seen him hit ONE pull-up 3 and 1 step back 3. The vast majority of his 3s come on C&S from what I've seen. Not sure how that is considered versatile. Most of them being wide open, but he has shown he can hit 3s when contested.

I do buy his ability to hit 3s off of movement and defend really well off-ball and run P&Rs in emergency situations, but wouldn't ask him to reliably run actions. I do think he can bother shots at the rim sometimes, but overall, I just don't see that as being such a positive trait that it is a factor when deciding whether or not to take him over another guy. I do think you can count on him not being a complete dud on either end of the floor if he needs to fill minutes for an injured guy.

Also, his FT% isn't great for a senior guard.


Sorry if there is some overlap.

Spoiler:








Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


I think Bane just needs to get to the line more, which he could conceivably improve in the NBA as he learns how to absorb contact better. Shot nearly 87% on more FT attempts as a junior, cumulative 80%... lump that with a career 43% from deep on 4 attempts per game and (44% on 6.5 3PA per as a senior) and I feel confident in not having any issues with the shooting.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1146 » by getrichordie » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:33 am

RiotPunch wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Spoiler:
RiotPunch wrote:It helps ease the blow of his 6' 4.25" wingspan. He has basically identical length measurables to Svi Mykhailiuk while being stronger and more athletic than Svi. A couple of other guys with 8'4" S/R include Dillon Brooks and Joe Harris.

It is not entirely based on his threat as a driver, he has the threat of a pull-up which will allow him to manipulate defenders and create passing lanes.

I don't think his athletic shortcomings are as damning as you make them out to be. He actually has impressive vertical pop, he is just limited laterally, and his standing reach is sufficient for him to survive in the land of the giants, IMO.


Spoiler:
I see what you are saying about easing the blow. But can you show me footage of his pull-up shooting? I've seen him hit ONE pull-up 3 and 1 step back 3. The vast majority of his 3s come on C&S from what I've seen. Not sure how that is considered versatile. Most of them being wide open, but he has shown he can hit 3s when contested.

I do buy his ability to hit 3s off of movement and defend really well off-ball and run P&Rs in emergency situations, but wouldn't ask him to reliably run actions. I do think he can bother shots at the rim sometimes, but overall, I just don't see that as being such a positive trait that it is a factor when deciding whether or not to take him over another guy. I do think you can count on him not being a complete dud on either end of the floor if he needs to fill minutes for an injured guy.

Also, his FT% isn't great for a senior guard.


Sorry if there is some overlap.

Spoiler:








Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


I think Bane just needs to get to the line more, which he could conceivably improve in the NBA as he learns how to absorb contact better. Shot nearly 87% on more FT attempts as a junior, cumulative 80%... lump that with a career 43% from deep on 4 attempts per game and (44% on 6.5 3PA per as a senior) and I feel confident in not having any issues with the shooting.


Totally fair point though I'm not sure that changes my outlook on him as a prospect. I think he's likely a 39-40% shooter in the NBA who can do some other things, but if teams are doing their homework, they will do their best to have Bane switched onto their quickest player and let them wreak havoc on him. I think that keeps him out of the SL barring injury and that's why I see it hard for him to go so high. I mean... maybe he goes as high as 40, but I would personally be shocked.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1147 » by getrichordie » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:20 pm

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1148 » by getrichordie » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:05 pm

Mods, can we sticky this thread?

Marcus wrote:...
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1149 » by NotACat » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:23 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1150 » by getrichordie » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:36 pm

NotACat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.


Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1151 » by NotACat » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:57 pm

getrichordie wrote:
NotACat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.


Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?

True. I currently have Josh Green ahead of him in the shorter off-ball wing category of players.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1152 » by getrichordie » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:01 pm

NotACat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
NotACat wrote:If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.


Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?

True. I currently have Josh Green ahead of him in the shorter off-ball wing category of players.


Interesting. I wouldn't go that far because while Green projects to be superior defensively, he doesn't have the vision or playmaking Haliburton does. And there's still some hope Haliburton gets a little stronger and can coached to be a little more aggressive where as one of Green's problems is finishing at the rim, though I trust his ability to get there more than I do Haliburton's. Haliburton also provides added value in terms of being able to run some actions if needed, though I wouldn't trust him doing it full-time. Green doesn't offer that same value. Also, Haliburton probably has a better chance of making plays off-ball defensively due to his length. Green's shooting isn't all that great either.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1153 » by NotACat » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:08 pm

getrichordie wrote:
NotACat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?

True. I currently have Josh Green ahead of him in the shorter off-ball wing category of players.


Interesting. I wouldn't go that far because while Green projects to be superior defensively, he doesn't have the vision or playmaking Haliburton does. And there's still some hope Haliburton gets a little stronger and can coached to be a little more aggressive where as one of Green's problems is finishing at the rim, though I trust his ability to get there more than I do Haliburton's. Haliburton also provides added value in terms of being able to run some actions if needed, though I wouldn't trust him doing it full-time. Green doesn't offer that same value. Also, Haliburton probably has a better chance of making plays off-ball defensively due to his length. Green's shooting isn't all that great either.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think it'll be much easier to help Green become a better shooter and finish at the rim than it would be to help Haliburton develop driving tendencies. Josh Green is also excellent at moving without the ball and always relocates after passing - that's going to be huge for him at the next level.

Green doesn't have the length, but I think he has the anticipation and burst to be a really good team defender and I expect him to be a good enough passer to pass after curls or if he's able to draw a help defender - wish he had more opportunities this season in that role.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1154 » by The-Power » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:25 pm

I like Green a lot but Haliburton is one of the most intelligent basketball players in recent years who also happens to be a very skilled passer and fits easily into virtually any NBA line-up. If Haliburton had a consistent pull-up jumper and could attack the rim better, he'd be hands down the best player and prospect in this draft. I don't think he has superstar upside with his limitations, but I don't see how he's not going to be a top role player at least – and with Green, that's pretty much what I hope (!) he can become.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1155 » by clyde21 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:11 pm

getrichordie wrote:
NotACat wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.


Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?


why would you drafr Hali to ask him to create his own shot anyways? if that's what you're drafting him for thats your own fault, not his.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1156 » by getrichordie » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:26 pm

clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
NotACat wrote:If people don't see him as a PG, I'm curious to know how these weaknesses weigh against his passing. His passing prowess isn't as useful if he's playing off-ball, and these weaknesses become more glaring.


Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?


why would you drafr Hali to ask him to create his own shot anyways? if that's what you're drafting him for thats your own fault, not his.


I'm not saying you would. Just saying that it needs to be taken into account because some still view Haliburton as a guy who can create his own shot and playmake.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1157 » by clyde21 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:22 pm

getrichordie wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Exactly. That's the fear with him. He's not aggressive and lacks the burst to get downhill into defense and manipulate them.

And even though he shot well in college, his form is still really suspect because of how he changes the way he shoots depending on where he is shooting from.

Now don't get me wrong. I think he's going to be a really good fit for a team that already has a primary playmaker and some quality shooting.

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.

What he's going to be good at is off-ball defense and some on-ball if he's not guarding stronger players (he's bird chested) and hitting open 3s and attacking close outs and making the right pass which is valuable. But you have to wonder what he does better at the next level than let's say... a Kevin Martin?


why would you drafr Hali to ask him to create his own shot anyways? if that's what you're drafting him for thats your own fault, not his.


I'm not saying you would. Just saying that it needs to be taken into account because some still view Haliburton as a guy who can create his own shot and playmake.


that's already being taken into consideration

if Haliburton had a live dribble game/creation he'd be the #1 prospect in this entire class like Power said
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1158 » by getrichordie » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:13 pm

clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
why would you drafr Hali to ask him to create his own shot anyways? if that's what you're drafting him for thats your own fault, not his.


I'm not saying you would. Just saying that it needs to be taken into account because some still view Haliburton as a guy who can create his own shot and playmake.


that's already being taken into consideration

if Haliburton had a live dribble game/creation he'd be the #1 prospect in this entire class like Power said


I was responding to the guy who was talking about Haliburton. I don't know if he is reading what Power posts. Not everyone knows what you know. There's an ego boost for ya ;)
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1159 » by clyde21 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:29 pm

getrichordie wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I'm not saying you would. Just saying that it needs to be taken into account because some still view Haliburton as a guy who can create his own shot and playmake.


that's already being taken into consideration

if Haliburton had a live dribble game/creation he'd be the #1 prospect in this entire class like Power said


I was responding to the guy who was talking about Haliburton. I don't know if he is reading what Power posts. Not everyone knows what you know. There's an ego boost for ya ;)


i was responding to you saying this:

But if you are asking him to create his own shot or run an offense, I'm not sure how effective he is going to be.


that's not what makes him a valuable prospect, if whoever drafts him drafts him for this reason they are doing it wrong.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#1160 » by King Ken » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:52 pm

Where Haliburton goes means everything. High BBIQ player. He would be ideal in San Antonio, Golden State, Orlando, Milwaukee, Indy, Dallas, Boston, and Toronto.

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