Aleksej Pokusevski

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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#461 » by pcbothwel » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:15 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Has an NBA level talent ever gotten off to such a poor start offensively and amounted to anything? He's pretty unique and is intriguing down the line, but 24% shooting overall and 18% from 3, 0 free throws attempted in his first 300 minutes makes Ben Wallace look like an offensive superstar. He's rocking a PER of 2.5, a TS% of 30%, a 61 offensive rating, and a -7.5 OBPM.

Edit: Ben Wallace as a rookie in just under 200 minutes had a PER of 6, .347% TS%, and a -7.6 OBPM. So there is that I guess, lol.


Given his age and this crazy season, you have to give him time. Its not common, but some guys can flip the switch. Recently:
DeAndre Hunter: Drafted as 22 high floor, low ceiling 3 & D wing. Was AWFUL last year and now looks like a future starter on a contender. Jaylen Brown type
Mudiay was unplayable his rookie year (TS 43%, terrible defender, -4.2 BPM) and he turned into an NBA player.
Sabonis looked like he was headed to China his rookie year. Now he's one of the best big men in basketball.
Alex Len
Gary Harris was probably the worst. 40% TS, -5.6 OBPM, more turnovers than assist and more.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#462 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:15 pm

UcanUwill wrote:I liked Vesely, and I think Wizards made a mistake by turning him into bigman. One skill he had was perimeter defense, he was lockdown perimeter defender and yeah he had no offensive skill, but his shot was in development. If you drafted him, kept him lean, made him work on a corner 3, he could have been a more athletic Shane Battier IMO. But they instantly put him at center, and he wasnt ready nor good at it. Guys like Jankunas were killing him in the post, of course he will suck as bigman in the NBA. They completely abandoned idea of him ever becoming a passable shooter and just made him put up weight. Now he plays center, never shoots anymore, and hes just not the same player he was in Partizan.
ANd contra argument, is that years later league became super small ball, and Vesely never was destined to be SF, but he could be PF in a sense Gallinari or Robert Covington are PFs. His one skill was perimeter defense and WIzards never tried to build on it.


The Wizards were not wrong to use him as a center. He just wasn't physically ready for that yet. A few years after that time, he had filled out and gotten a lot stronger (gained probably 30 pounds in his upper body), and ever since then he exclusively plays as a center.

The only reason Partizan used him as a small forward was because he was like 210 pounds (95 kilos) at that time. His perimeter defense was always overrated. He could do a good job of crowding guys with his size and length, as long as he knew the lane was closed behind him, due to true zone being allowed in Europe. But without that, he wouldn't have been able to consistently handle switches against good offensive small guards.

It's different than just having to crowd a 6-6 to 6-8 (1.97 to 2.02) small forward, and not having to worry about if they beat you off the dribble. It's also very different than playing in the NBA, where there is no physical contact allowed on the perimeter and if your man beats you off the dribble, there is no help defense behind you, which results in an easy open layup or dunk.

With that being said, it's the NBA we are talking about, where defense is entirely outlawed by the rules and the reffing. So it wouldn't make any difference if they used Vesely as a small forward, because no one is allowed to play defense in the NBA anyway. And in the NBA, if they would have just used Vesely as a dive man to the basket off pick and roll, then he would have been dunking all the time. It wasn't playing him as a center that was the problem. It was that they didn't understand he had no offensive skills and was a once in a generation level athlete. Instead, they clearly saw him as a "Euro stiff", that has "skills and could shoot the three as a spread big / face up big".

In retrospect, it just shows how ridiculous the NBA can still be in how they look at and handle European players, even in recent years.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#463 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:26 pm

Fischella wrote:Vesely is an athletic freak that knows how to play basketball, he was played at SF when he is a Center in a team with very limited spacing that had a terrible coach in Wittman

Vesely would've been better than Cody Zeller for example, and probably an average starting Center in the NBA in his prime, still not worthy of a 6th pick, but he was no scrub, nor that he has zero bball skills, he can handle, pass, shoot some for a Center, definitely understands bball to a high level


He's like a 3 out of 10 at best (that might be overly generous), in all of those skill sets. He's one of the least skilled rotation centers in EuroLeague. He's also very highly injury prone, which has been a big problem for him throughout his career.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#464 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:28 pm

People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't, because he wasn't good enough.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#465 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:36 pm

Ruzious wrote:People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't.


Once he got to his prime in Europe, he was like 5 times a better player than he was on Partizan. The guy is an absolute unreal athletic freak of nature and is 7 feet with a huge wingspan. He would have probably been at something like prime DeAndre Jordan level, if he continued to play in the NBA.

Considering that he's a 7 footer, I honestly can't think of a European player in all of history that had his overall level of athleticism. Michalis Pelekanos was more athletic if you don't account for height, but not if you factor in he was like 6-6, and not 7-0. And in terms of all players that played in EuroLeague (any nationality), and counting all the FIBA years back to the 1950s also, Vesely is probably like the second most athletic player ever after Manuel Raga.

He's literally a once in a generation level athlete at 7 feet. I have absolutely zero doubt that he could have eventually been a decent starting center in the NBA.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#466 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:49 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't.


Once he got to his prime in Europe, he was like 5 times a better player than he was on Partizan. The guy is an absolute unreal athletic freak of nature and is 7 feet with a huge wingspan. He would have probably been at something like prime DeAndre Jordan level, if he continued to play in the NBA.

Considering that he's a 7 footer, I honestly can't think of a European player in all of history that had his overall level of athleticism. Pelekanos was more athletic if you don't account for height, but not if you factor in he was like 6-6, and not 7-0. And in terms of all players that played in EuroLeague (any nationality), and counting all the FIBA years back to the 1950s also, Vesely is probably like the second most athletic player ever after Raga.

He's literally a once in a generation level athlete at 7 feet. I have absolutely zero doubt that he could have eventually been a decent starting center in the NBA.

No doubt he was a very good athlete, but the Wiz had him with Javale McGee - who was a better athlete than Vesely and even longer. That didn't work out very well. McGee's been a career journeyman. I gotta disagree with you on Vesely becoming a good NBA center. An NBA center absolutely needs good hands to excel, and he didn't have them. He also lacked the strength.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#467 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:50 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:Has an NBA level talent ever gotten off to such a poor start offensively and amounted to anything? He's pretty unique and is intriguing down the line, but 24% shooting overall and 18% from 3, 0 free throws attempted in his first 300 minutes makes Ben Wallace look like an offensive superstar. He's rocking a PER of 2.5, a TS% of 30%, a 61 offensive rating, and a -7.5 OBPM.

Edit: Ben Wallace as a rookie in just under 200 minutes had a PER of 6, .347% TS%, and a -7.6 OBPM. So there is that I guess, lol.


Given his age and this crazy season, you have to give him time. Its not common, but some guys can flip the switch. Recently:
DeAndre Hunter: Drafted as 22 high floor, low ceiling 3 & D wing. Was AWFUL last year and now looks like a future starter on a contender. Jaylen Brown type
Mudiay was unplayable his rookie year (TS 43%, terrible defender, -4.2 BPM) and he turned into an NBA player.
Sabonis looked like he was headed to China his rookie year. Now he's one of the best big men in basketball.
Alex Len
Gary Harris was probably the worst. 40% TS, -5.6 OBPM, more turnovers than assist and more.


Oh, I'd gladly take him as a project on my own team. I still like the upside, but it's a rough start for sure.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#468 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:No doubt he was a very good athlete, but the Wiz had him with Javale McGee - who was a better athlete than Vesely and even longer. That didn't work out very well. McGee's been a career journeyman. I gotta disagree with you on Vesely becoming a good NBA center. An NBA center absolutely needs good hands to excel, and he didn't have them. He also lacked the strength.


Javale McGree is not as athletic as Vesely is. In the NBA, Vesely wasn't used as a dive man, so NBA fans have no idea just how athletic he actually is.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#469 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:54 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Fischella wrote:Vesely is an athletic freak that knows how to play basketball, he was played at SF when he is a Center in a team with very limited spacing that had a terrible coach in Wittman

Vesely would've been better than Cody Zeller for example, and probably an average starting Center in the NBA in his prime, still not worthy of a 6th pick, but he was no scrub, nor that he has zero bball skills, he can handle, pass, shoot some for a Center, definitely understands bball to a high level


He's like a 3 out of 10 at best (that might be overly generous), in all of those skill sets. He's one of the least skilled rotation centers in EuroLeague. He's also very highly injury prone, which has been a big problem for him throughout his career.

No, he is easily a 8-9 as a passer for a big in Europe, 6-7 as a handler, maybe yeah, 3-4 as a shooter

injury prone obviously yes, but he is way more skilled that you give him credit for, he was a EuroLeague MVP and a top5 player in Europe for years
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#470 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:56 pm

Ruzious wrote:People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't, because he wasn't good enough.

this is false, plenty of interest both when his deal was up with WAS and after he started to shine in Turkey, but the money never made sense, he was making way more in guaranteed $$ in EuroLeague playing as the best, or second best player, of a perennial contender

There is a lot more nuance to this decisions always, never black/white
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#471 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:57 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:No doubt he was a very good athlete, but the Wiz had him with Javale McGee - who was a better athlete than Vesely and even longer. That didn't work out very well. McGee's been a career journeyman. I gotta disagree with you on Vesely becoming a good NBA center. An NBA center absolutely needs good hands to excel, and he didn't have them. He also lacked the strength.


Javale McGree is not as athletic as Vesely is. In the NBA, Vesely wasn't used as a dive man, so NBA fans have no idea just how athletic he actually is.

McGee is freakishly long and has a nice vertical and fluidity but Vesely has that+way better body control, agility, flexibility/dexterity and is as strong, or was in his prime, agreed

also Vesely's IQ is like 10xMcGee's (and he has improved there)
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#472 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:57 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:No doubt he was a very good athlete, but the Wiz had him with Javale McGee - who was a better athlete than Vesely and even longer. That didn't work out very well. McGee's been a career journeyman. I gotta disagree with you on Vesely becoming a good NBA center. An NBA center absolutely needs good hands to excel, and he didn't have them. He also lacked the strength.


Javale McGree is not as athletic as Vesely is. In the NBA, Vesely wasn't used as a dive man, so NBA fans have no idea just how athletic he actually is.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. As a Wiz fan, I've seen a TON of games that both of them played in. Not saying Vesely wasn't a very good athlete, but he wasn't at McGee's level.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#473 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 2:59 pm

Fischella wrote:No, he is easily a 8-9 as a passer for a big in Europe, 6-7 as a handler, maybe yeah, 3-4 as a shooter

injury prone obviously yes, but he is way more skilled that you give him credit for, he was a EuroLeague MVP and a top5 player in Europe for years


OK, let's just take your numbers. Then the average EuroLeague rotation center is a 9 or 10 in all of those categories. And no, he's not been a top 5 player in Europe for years. Maybe more like top 12-15.

The NBA fans are greatly underrating him, and you are clearly overrating him.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#474 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:03 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Fischella wrote:No, he is easily a 8-9 as a passer for a big in Europe, 6-7 as a handler, maybe yeah, 3-4 as a shooter

injury prone obviously yes, but he is way more skilled that you give him credit for, he was a EuroLeague MVP and a top5 player in Europe for years


OK, let's just take your numbers. Then the average EuroLeague rotation center is a 9 or 10 in all of those categories. And no, he's not been a top 5 player in Europe for years. Maybe more like top 15.

Dude he won EL MVP and has been All-Euroleague 1st team 3 of the last 5 years, what are we even talking about here

And nope, the avg EL rotation Center isn't a 9/10, actually as a matter of fact of all EL Centers this season, 20-21, I wouldn't take any over Vesely as a passer
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#475 » by Mirotic12 » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:05 pm

Fischella wrote:Dude he won EL MVP and has been All-Euroleague 1st team 3 of the last 5 years, what are we even talking about here

And nope, the avg EL rotation Center isn't a 9/10, actually as a matter of fact of all EL Centers this season, 20-21, I wouldn't take any over Vesely as a passer


You said Rudy Fernandez was the best small forward in Europe just a few months ago. Come on man, you are talking to someone that closely follows EuroLeague here. Vesely has never been any top 5 player in Europe.

Giannis has back to back NBA MVPs. I guess that makes him the best player in the world the last two years.........

For top level European standards, Vesely is an unskilled big man. Period. That isn't even remotely debatable.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#476 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:09 pm

Fischella wrote:
Ruzious wrote:People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't, because he wasn't good enough.

this is false, plenty of interest both when his deal was up with WAS and after he started to shine in Turkey, but the money never made sense, he was making way more in guaranteed $$ in EuroLeague playing as the best, or second best player, of a perennial contender

There is a lot more nuance to this decisions always, never black/white

If there was any real interest in Vesely, we most likely would have heard it. What were the dollar amounts in his EuroLeague contracts? And compare that to the amount an average starting center in the NBA gets. If he was as good as you say he is, he should have gotten NBA offers of $10 mil a year.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#477 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:16 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Fischella wrote:Dude he won EL MVP and has been All-Euroleague 1st team 3 of the last 5 years, what are we even talking about here

And nope, the avg EL rotation Center isn't a 9/10, actually as a matter of fact of all EL Centers this season, 20-21, I wouldn't take any over Vesely as a passer


You said Rudy Fernandez was the best small forward in Europe just a few months ago. Come on man, you are talking to someone that closely follows EuroLeague here. Vesely has never been any top 5 player in Europe.

Giannis has back to back NBA MVPs. I guess that makes him the best player in the world the last two years.........

For top level European standards, Vesely is an unskilled big man. Period. That isn't even remotely debatable.

Yeah and he was, the level of wings in Europe is that poor and Rudy is still very impactful (now Grigonis if you wanna count him as a SF, he plays some for sure, and Abalde, same idea, have prob surpassed him and Clyburn who is a PF often, has returned, Simon, Papapetrou are in the convo too)

man I have worked for the EuroLeague during the last 5 years for a stint and for a EL club as well


No, Giannis isn't the best player in the world but he was the most impactful NBA player over the last two RS and he is def a top5-6 guy, same as with Vesely, the fact that you think that he is unskilled just means that you aren't objective about this, be real and go check the Centers that play meaningful minutes in EL this season and find me better passers please
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#478 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:19 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Fischella wrote:
Ruzious wrote:People can make excuses all day long for Vesely - saying the exact opposite of each other - he should have played center instead of forward or he should have played forward instead of center - but the truth is he sucked with the Wizards, and no other NBA team showed any interest in him. He couldn't play center in the NBA, because he was weak and had terrible hands. He couldn't play the 3, because his offense wasn't good enough. And all of that was predictable watching his Euro games on video. He was talked about ad nauseum on the Wiz board before he was drafted - it was almost unanimous there that he was going to bust. Eventually talent rises like cream to the top - no matter who the coach is. He didn't, because he wasn't good enough.

this is false, plenty of interest both when his deal was up with WAS and after he started to shine in Turkey, but the money never made sense, he was making way more in guaranteed $$ in EuroLeague playing as the best, or second best player, of a perennial contender

There is a lot more nuance to this decisions always, never black/white

If there was any real interest in Vesely, we most likely would have heard it. What were the dollar amounts in his EuroLeague contracts? And compare that to the amount an average starting center in the NBA gets. If he was as good as you say he is, he should have gotten NBA offers of $10 mil a year.

Man it doesn't work this way, and believe me I heard it

Just because he was really good he wouldn't get that type of money, Larkin just had the best offensive output in EL's RS history last year and he stayed in Turkey, you have to prove it in the NBA to get $10M per

He could've easily gotten what Campazzo got, $3-4M anually but a) he has a buyout to pay and b) he already had failed in the league and prob was comfy in Istanbul

And yes, he was making way more than that, Barcelona wanted him for years and he stayed with Fener cause even them wouldn't go up in money and pay him, Vesely was making the equivalent of $7-8M per year in NBA with Fener, plus not having to pay rent/groceries/car etc, turkish and russian clubs go above and beyond and cover all of that regularly
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#479 » by Ruzious » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:38 pm

Fischella wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Fischella wrote:this is false, plenty of interest both when his deal was up with WAS and after he started to shine in Turkey, but the money never made sense, he was making way more in guaranteed $$ in EuroLeague playing as the best, or second best player, of a perennial contender

There is a lot more nuance to this decisions always, never black/white

If there was any real interest in Vesely, we most likely would have heard it. What were the dollar amounts in his EuroLeague contracts? And compare that to the amount an average starting center in the NBA gets. If he was as good as you say he is, he should have gotten NBA offers of $10 mil a year.

Man it doesn't work this way, and believe me I heard it

Just because he was really good he wouldn't get that type of money, Larkin just had the best offensive output in EL's RS history last year and he stayed in Turkey, you have to prove it in the NBA to get $10M per

He could've easily gotten what Campazzo got, $3-4M anually but a) he has a buyout to pay and b) he already had failed in the league and prob was comfy in Istanbul

And yes, he was making way more than that, Barcelona wanted him for years and he stayed with Fener cause even them wouldn't go up in money and pay him, Vesely was making the equivalent of $7-8M per year in NBA with Fener, plus not having to pay rent/groceries/car etc, turkish and russian clubs go above and beyond and cover all of that regularly

That doesn't jibe with what this article on the top Euro salaries were in 2018. https://www.eurohoops.net/en/top-lists/722638/the-top-10-euroleague-salaries/4/ The top salary was around $4 million, and Jan's was $2,430,000. Interestingly, Chris Singleton's up there around 1.8. He was picked later in the first round by the Wiz in the Vesely draft. He was an awful offensive player and overrated defender. Funny story on him - the first thing he did after signing his rookie contract was buy thousands of lottery tickets.
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Re: Aleksej Pokusevski 

Post#480 » by Fischella » Thu Feb 4, 2021 3:43 pm

That's net man for russian/turkish, and no, Vesely has been making more (eurohoops is badly sourced in this regard) Vesely was at over $3 per year AFTER taxes, that's about $7 per in NBA terms

Singleton is another guy that blossomed in Europe mostly playing Center after been thought of as a 3-4

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