RealGM 'Consensus' Big Board - #9

[clyde21]

i'm honestly shocked that there's a strong chance here Vassell is gonna be on the board before Obi

He's a two-player. Toppin is not.

so why is he not ranked ahead of Melo?

[getrichordie]

i'm honestly shocked that there's a strong chance here Vassell is gonna be on the board before Obi

He's a two-player. Toppin is not.

so why is he not ranked ahead of Melo?

Potential. Melo is a late bloomer. I think the prevailing thought is he is at least going to be able to bother 1s and 2s once NBA coaches hound him on that end. He has all the tools. His hips are good. His NSEW movements are good. He's shown flashes of rim-protection too. He's definitely a far cry from being a good defender right now, but scouts think he is going to get there.

[clyde21]

He's a two-player. Toppin is not.

so why is he not ranked ahead of Melo?

Potential. Melo is a late bloomer. I think the prevailing thought is he is at least going to be able to bother 1s and 2s once NBA coaches hound him on that end. He has all the tools. His hips are good. His NSEW movements are good. He's shown flashes of rim-protection too. He's definitely a far cry from being a good defender right now, but scouts think he is going to get there.

so is it b/c of potential or because you like two-way players better?

because there's no way you should have Vassell > Obi at this point unless you value 'two-way' guys that much, which means he should go ahead of other guys on the poll too

also this 'two-way' argument has more holes in it than swiss cheese...two way doesn't mean anything honestly...Klay Thompson is a better 'two-way' player than Steph...does that mean he's better than Steph?

[getrichordie]

so why is he not ranked ahead of Melo?

Potential. Melo is a late bloomer. I think the prevailing thought is he is at least going to be able to bother 1s and 2s once NBA coaches hound him on that end. He has all the tools. His hips are good. His NSEW movements are good. He's shown flashes of rim-protection too. He's definitely a far cry from being a good defender right now, but scouts think he is going to get there.

so is it b/c of potential or because you like two-way players better?

because there's no way you should have Vassell > Obi at this point unless you value 'two-way' guys that much, which means he should go ahead of other guys on the poll too

also this 'two-way' argument has more holes in it than swiss cheese...two way doesn't mean anything honestly...Klay Thompson is a better 'two-way' player than Steph...does that mean he's better than Steph?

It's because of potential. I've stated numerous times that Toppin benefited from playing weaker comp and I don't think he projects so highly in the NBA as Vassell. Vassell can still get stronger and it is a legitimate 3-pt threat. I can't say that about Toppin as a lot of his 3s came from wide open looks. Think he struggles against better and bigger players around rim but thrives in transition.

Of course there exceptions. Steph is a generational offensive player. He literally changed the game.

Also, wouldn't say I value the two-way tag. It's just a differentiator in this case. Think Toppin is fine on offensive end but Vassell contributes on both ends. Wing defenders who can shoot the 3 are highly valued as well, more so than a high-flying transition player.

I would say that I value defense a bit more than others, though.

[The-Power]

Klay Thompson also isn't better than Damian Lillard.

I agree that the ‘two-way-player’ argument has been used too often when talking about goodness or impact of a player. It doesn't matter on which side of the ball your impact comes from, simplistically speaking (i.e. not taking into account scalability, exploitation in certain match-ups etc.).

I also have Vassell ahead of Toppin. But not because it's two-way player vs. one-way player but because I fear Toppin's defense is going to be such an issue that his offense – while really good for a big – isn't good enough to allow him to be a high-impact player. Vassell, on the other hand, has an easier path to being an impact player in my eyes.

[clyde21]

that's not an exception, that happens all the time, because offense is >>> defense...you can scheme for defense, but if you can't scheme a great offensive player, also team defense >>> on ball defense in most scenarios

now, I get it if you don't think Vassell / Obi are that much off offensively, that's fine, but it's much deeper than just saying 'two-way' player...Brandon Clarke last year was a better two-way prospect than Ja Morant...doesn't mean he was a better player or prospect.

[HeadtopChunes]

that's not an exception, that happens all the time, because offense is >>> defense...you can scheme for defense, but if you can't scheme a great offensive player, also team defense >>> on ball defense in most scenarios

now, I get it if you don't think Vassell / Obi are that much off offensively, that's fine, but it's much deeper than just saying 'two-way' player...Brandon Clarke last year was a better two-way prospect than Ja Morant...doesn't mean he was a better player or prospect.

Sure you can scheme to hide some defensive flaws but scheming for someone as bad defensively as Toppin requires such a specific roster and scheme is it really worth it?

Like what aspect of defense can Obi play at a league-average level? How does that translate to a good playoff player? Can he really play offense at a level high enough to warrant this?

Those are all the questions I have when thinking about drafting him.

Vassell is probably something like Danny Green but that's a player that can have a significant impact on winning and one that fits nearly ever roster or scheme.

[getrichordie]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

[Stillwater]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

Man there was a lot of hype surrounding big O that he proved wasn't hype.
6'8 or 7' is a difference if head height meant something it doesn't.
Id say closer to 6'10 but regardless at over 7'1" ws elite bb iq for a big hell any frosh any position was on display all season with his anticipation of passes with high steal and block rates.
Hes also extremely explosive as much as a brandon clarke for example.
I like Vassell higher than 9th too he has a really solid 2nd season, but big O dominated the pac
He was named to the All-Pac 12 first team and All-Freshman team while leading the Trojans in scoring, rebounds, and blocks per contest. Okongwu averaged 16.2 points, 8.2 boards, and 2.7 blocks per night for USC...etc etc
He will be a top 5 pick in this draft and imo is arguably the best big in the draft since he proved himself over a longer stretch than Wiseman.
Final note is Okongwu can shoot, has a nice stroke but his ambidextrous touch close to the basket made it foolish for him to settle for lesser shots reserved for smaller less capable interior players.
Id take him at 1 his floor is that high.

[getrichordie]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

Man there was a lot of hype surrounding big O that he proved wasn't hype.
6'8 or 7' is a difference if head height meant something it doesn't.
Id say closer to 6'10 but regardless at over 7'1" ws elite bb iq for a big hell any frosh any position was on display all season with his anticipation of passes with high steal and block rates.
Hes also extremely explosive as much as a brandon clarke for example.
I like Vassell higher than 9th too he has a really solid 2nd season, but big O dominated the pac
He was named to the All-Pac 12 first team and All-Freshman team while leading the Trojans in scoring, rebounds, and blocks per contest. Okongwu averaged 16.2 points, 8.2 boards, and 2.7 blocks per night for USC...etc etc
He will be a top 5 pick in this draft and imo is arguably the best big in the draft since he proved himself over a longer stretch than Wiseman.
Final note is Okongwu can shoot, has a nice stroke but his ambidextrous touch close to the basket made it foolish for him to settle for lesser shots reserved for smaller less capable interior players.
Id take him at 1 his floor is that high.

Big difference in dominating P12 and NBA. Excluding Adebayo, who in the NBA is starting a 6’9 center right now that’s not GSW or HOU?

Not ready to say he can be a long-term starter at the next level.

If you want to use accolades as a reason to draft someone, which I don’t think means much, Vassell’s accolades aren’t bad.

2020 Naismith Award Defensive Player of the Year — Midseason Top 15

2020 ACC Championship Team

2020 All-ACC Second Team (ACC Coaches and Media)

Should have been first there but Hughes got it over him for some reason. Nwora is also debatable.

[Stillwater]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

Man there was a lot of hype surrounding big O that he proved wasn't hype.
6'8 or 7' is a difference if head height meant something it doesn't.
Id say closer to 6'10 but regardless at over 7'1" ws elite bb iq for a big hell any frosh any position was on display all season with his anticipation of passes with high steal and block rates.
Hes also extremely explosive as much as a brandon clarke for example.
I like Vassell higher than 9th too he has a really solid 2nd season, but big O dominated the pac
He was named to the All-Pac 12 first team and All-Freshman team while leading the Trojans in scoring, rebounds, and blocks per contest. Okongwu averaged 16.2 points, 8.2 boards, and 2.7 blocks per night for USC...etc etc
He will be a top 5 pick in this draft and imo is arguably the best big in the draft since he proved himself over a longer stretch than Wiseman.
Final note is Okongwu can shoot, has a nice stroke but his ambidextrous touch close to the basket made it foolish for him to settle for lesser shots reserved for smaller less capable interior players.
Id take him at 1 his floor is that high.

Big difference in dominating P12 and NBA. Excluding Adebayo, who in the NBA is starting a 6’9 center right now that’s not GSW or HOU?

Not ready to say he can be a long-term starter at the next level.

If you want to use accolades as a reason to draft someone, which I don’t think means much, Vassell’s accolades aren’t bad.

2020 Naismith Award Defensive Player of the Year — Midseason Top 15

2020 ACC Championship Team

2020 All-ACC Second Team (ACC Coaches and Media)

Should have been first there but Hughes got it over him for some reason. Nwora is also debatable.

Ill take Bam any day so yeah there is some differences in opinion on how to value a prospect.
O can defend 1-5 he is the epitome of a modern forward with inside game to play the 5 easily.
If he was taking and making 3s i guess you would suddenly like him more? I think he absolutely will add those to expand his upside too.
If he was a slow unathletic dinosaur big you could convince me about struggling at less than avg head height , as is no chance.

[RiotPunch]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

His measurements will be important for him. Specifically S/R & W/S. If those check out, him measuring at 6'8" wouldn't matter much.

I have him #8 on my board right now. He is a very instinctual defender, excelling in multiple PnR situations/coverages. He can play up and switch to an extent, he can drop down and protect the rim. I think his versatility on D draws the Bam comps. Offensively is where he is not like Bam (who is far superior as an initiator big). Not a good passer/dribbler/shooter right now, but there is reason to buy his touch and he is very good offensively in the PnR as well.

Definitely would take Vassell over him too, though.

[RiotPunch]

Daniel Theis comes to mind for smaller starting centers. Those big MFers usually get played off the floor in crunch time though, Onyeka I think could avoid that with his ability to defend diverse PnR and hopefully develop that face-up game more.

[Stillwater]

I don’t see how you can pass on Vassell for Okongwu unless you really need a big and even then, is it even a question?

The value of a good 3&D wing is too high in the league versus an undersized big man.

Can definitely see Okongwu going right after Vassell but not before. He’s not Adebayo. Maybe that’s what people see in Okongwu? He hasn’t even flashed much of a mid range game...

Can someone please argue their case for Okongwu or is it all based off hype?

Also, if Okongwu is 6’8 is he still even considered a lottery pick?

His measurements will be important for him. Specifically S/R & W/S. If those check out, him measuring at 6'8" wouldn't matter much.

I have him #8 on my board right now. He is a very instinctual defender, excelling in multiple PnR situations/coverages. He can play up and switch to an extent, he can drop down and protect the rim. I think his versatility on D draws the Bam comps. Offensively is where he is not like Bam (who is far superior as an initiator big). Not a good passer/dribbler/shooter right now, but there is reason to buy his touch and he is very good offensively in the PnR as well.

Definitely would take Vassell over him too, though.

Cant compare him to Bam currently as a playmaker but Bam as a nba prospect had less development overall so the optimism surrounding anyone with such a high floor has to be league wide with the exception of teams needing a high ceiling developmental guard for a rebuild.