getrichordie wrote:One thing that intrigued me when watching Carey is how fast he reads and reacts (doesn't have lateral agility to take advantage of this) on the defensive end of the floor at times.
It's at the least, somewhat enticing but you have to wonder how he ever improves his agility and fully takes advantage of his ability to read and react, because without it he is a massive liability on that end.
I think he's basically a poor man's Kanter.
Carey has more offensive utility than Kanter because he can attack the basket off the dribble. He has a good handle for a big man, and like you said he also has good basketball instincts/IQ. I still think despite his agility limitations that he is being undervalued. Smart, skilled players like him usually find a role in the league.
getrichordie wrote:One thing that intrigued me when watching Carey is how fast he reads and reacts (doesn't have lateral agility to take advantage of this) on the defensive end of the floor at times.
It's at the least, somewhat enticing but you have to wonder how he ever improves his agility and fully takes advantage of his ability to read and react, because without it he is a massive liability on that end.
I think he's basically a poor man's Kanter.
Carey has more offensive utility than Kanter because he can attack the basket off the dribble. He has a good handle for a big man, and like you said he also has good basketball instincts/IQ. I still think despite his agility limitations that he is being undervalued. Smart, skilled players like him usually find a role in the league.
Versatility doesn't = offensive success. Kanter went 4th overall in his draft. Are you saying Carey should be in lottery consideration? Carey isn't going to be asked to handle at the next level, like at all.
getrichordie wrote:One thing that intrigued me when watching Carey is how fast he reads and reacts (doesn't have lateral agility to take advantage of this) on the defensive end of the floor at times.
It's at the least, somewhat enticing but you have to wonder how he ever improves his agility and fully takes advantage of his ability to read and react, because without it he is a massive liability on that end.
I think he's basically a poor man's Kanter.
Carey has more offensive utility than Kanter because he can attack the basket off the dribble. He has a good handle for a big man, and like you said he also has good basketball instincts/IQ. I still think despite his agility limitations that he is being undervalued. Smart, skilled players like him usually find a role in the league.
Versatility doesn't = offensive success. Kanter went 4th overall in his draft. Are you saying Carey should be in lottery consideration? Carey isn't going to be asked to handle at the next level, like at all.
Kanter went 4th back when much of the league still thought dominant big men were the best way to win a championship. The league has changed, Kanter wouldn't be drafted that high if he was just now eligible. So no, I don't think Carey should be a lottery pick. However, I do think he will be a rotation player in the league for many years. If I were drafting in the back third of the 1st I'd be happy with that.
getrichordie wrote: I apologize if expressing my opinion comes off as "jabs" or whatever, but not my intent.
IQ is one part of the picture.
And Wiseman is the better athlete. It's not a couple of inches. It's 3 inches to be exact and the wingspan difference and standing reach difference is even larger.
Size matters in the NBA, especially the closer to the basket you get and if you don't think that, I'm not sure why I'm even having a conversation with you.
And again, even if it is a 3 game sample size, Onyeka hasn't shown the same level of dominance Wiseman did. Easy to ignore it, of course, especially when you are rooting for Onyeka.
But Wiseman's sheer dominance in those 3 games shouldn't be understated when comparing the two. He's only going to get better as well.
And Okongwu had way more opportunities to show he was more dominant than Wiseman than in his 3 games, and while he did come close, he didn't.
"Close, but no cigar."
See thats what i am talking about you really think Wiseman is the better athlete but he never showed that he has an elite 2nd jump or anything close to it and neither has Oturu but Oturu has quick feet is a proven high motor offensive rebounder with a 7'4" wingspan and better hops than Wiseman. At 6'10 actual vs Wiseman listed 7'2 in shoes i am guessing the actual difference is negligible. The entire point here is you cant with a straight face say Wiseman is a lottery pick and at the same time say Oturu isnt without sounding pretty uninformed. I have Oturu as a first round lock and late lottery potential and Wiseman needing years to become a dominant offensive player besides dunks and will struggle to defend outside the paint. Oturu showed enough shooting a decent % albeit low attempts from 3. Either way a hell of a lot better than Wisemans 4 for 27 or whatever the hell it was from deep his senior yr. he blocked three shots vs. South Carolina State, five shots against Illinois-Chicago, and one shot against Oregon his defense at the rim is based less on reading plays like Okongwu and more on reacting to slow unathletic offensive scrubs on bad teams.i would not take anything he did in college and factor it into my assessment of his potential. He has enormous potential and a far lower floor than some other options.
I have Okongwu as having better hops than Oturu. It's one of the reasons why he's pretty effective despite being a bit undersized.
Oturu is underrated, though. I'll agree with you. Keep in mind he's played a lot more games than Wiseman so he's had more chances to show case his game.
Wiseman is just scratching the surface of what he can do and yeah he's raw. He would be less raw and look more polished had he played more college games and this would be an entirely different conversation. Comparing Oturu to Wiseman is a weird comparison given than Oturu is further along in his development. Embiid doesn't have the quickest second jump either but he's still super impactful because of his elite size and standing reach. It will be the same way with Wiseman.
Regardless of the competition Wiseman faced, his debut numbers were historic. No other player (since 2008 I think) has done what he did in those 22 minutes. Other centers play bad teams too. They didn't do what he did.
Admittedly I'm someone who puts less stock than others in what happens in AAU. I look at AAU as a time for a lot of experimentation for players that allows them to get a feel for their own game. Wiseman likely won't be shooting 3s out of the gate and that might be an undeveloped part of his game, but he's shown he can knock down mid-range shots at that level.
There is a chance, just like any other younger player in the draft, that he never puts enough together to be a truly significant piece in the NBA, enough so to warrant a top 5 pick, but the upside is definitely there and you take that risk with a Wiseman 100/100 just like you take the risk of a Joel Embiid.
It's never a good idea to marginalize a prospect's upside, like ever.
And you don't draft Wiseman for his O potential alone, you draft him for his rim-protecting, rim-running, and rebounding potential with plus mobility to bother players out to the perimeter as well.
This Wiseman hate is getting really overblown. If there was already a combine, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
Most of what you said is reasonable,except the part about Wiseman hate. Wiseman imo is much less proven on both sides of the ball and so far less predictable as far as projecting his future than Okongwu because it makes you assume right or wrong that Wiseman has gotten by way too much on his size in HS and the risk then is maybe its a bad sign he isnt as hungry . Granted big O is a higher IQ than normal for his age big so it's not a knock on WIsemans longterm development that O is farther along, but it is a knock on WIsemans draft stock compared to O in the modern NBA where 7' bigs that are ltd in their versatility and overall ability are far less valuable than in the past esp for anyone who needs more from the predraft process like medicals and mental assessments and may not get it before the draft with the combine and individual workouts currently not looking likley to ever happen.
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