Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2?

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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#21 » by kobyz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:07 am

not a two way player
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#22 » by Monix » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:21 am

OGLife wrote:I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1

right team, wrong guy
the comp is John Collins - a 4 that gets buckets but does he help you win games?
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#23 » by kobyz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:25 am

he remind me a more athletic Kyle Kuzma
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#24 » by OGLife » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:56 pm

Monix wrote:
OGLife wrote:I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1

right team, wrong guy
the comp is John Collins - a 4 that gets buckets but does he help you win games?

A 20 - 10 guy definitely helps you win games.
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#25 » by Monix » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:27 pm

didn't even average 10 boards/40 in the A-10, Collins may be the best case scenario

there are feasible Derrick Williams outcomes too
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#26 » by OGLife » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:35 pm

I see Markieff Morris being his floor.
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#27 » by Spud2nique » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:35 pm

kg01 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:One word: defense.

He will be a fine transition player and give teams problems out of P&R situations and is an awesome lob target, but his shooting is overrated, IMO. He's more of an ancillary player who is a MASSIVE liability on defense. He will hit C&S 3s at about a 36-37% clip but not at a high rate (think Ibaka). He should be sparingly useful in a small ball 5 role as well, but overall, he just relies a lot on athleticism.

Folks who have him there likely overrate his athleticism and shooting and likely overvalue his comparison to Amare Stoudemire who would be an iteration Enes Kanter/Montrezl Harrell in today's league.


This is more right than wrong.


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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#28 » by Ball4life32 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:54 pm

Monix wrote:didn't even average 10 boards/40 in the A-10, Collins may be the best case scenario

there are feasible Derrick Williams outcomes too

Id be shocked...Collins & Toppin are both 22 now. Imagine what Collins would have done this past season vs A-10 competition. Collins was already a 19+/10 guy in only 26 mins per game playing in the ACC at 19 yrs old.
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#29 » by King Ken » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:05 pm

OGLife wrote:
King Ken wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
logically, statistically, anyilly way you're wrong, but ok lol

It depends on your position but at the 4, perimeter defense is far more important as well as the ability to defend on PnRs. At the 1, defense is important but look at Kris Dunn to Trae Young. One of the worst offensive players to one of the worst defensive players while being one of the best opposite sides. Dunn is basically unstartable while Trae Young is a 21 year old All Star starter. So yes, offense is way more valuable than defense but as a big, both are equally important.

I'll rather an elite offensive player and a bad defender at the 4 over a pretty good offensive player and a below average defender all day though.

Post defense is really only critical at the 5.

I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the argument as to why Toppin should be a 5, regardless of what you say about his defense.

I actually see your point but there are only a few of us out there who see Obi as a major offensive impact type
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#30 » by King Ken » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:07 pm

Monix wrote:
OGLife wrote:I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1

right team, wrong guy
the comp is John Collins - a 4 that gets buckets but does he help you win games?

Obi does a lot more than Collins on offense though. A lot more. He also has a lot better offensive tools. Collins is an elite movement specialist who is an excellent rebounder. Obi does so much on offense, it's crazy when you think about it.
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#31 » by King Ken » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:12 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:
Monix wrote:didn't even average 10 boards/40 in the A-10, Collins may be the best case scenario

there are feasible Derrick Williams outcomes too

Id be shocked...Collins & Toppin are both 22 now. Imagine what Collins would have done this past season vs A-10 competition. Collins was already a 19+/10 guy in only 26 mins per game playing in the ACC at 19 yrs old.

They aren't at the same stage of development. Obi was 6'3 165 at 17. John was 6'9 220 at 16. John and Obi aren't at the same stages of development. John is much more advanced physically at the same ages but Obi has caught up in a number of areas as Obi is just a lot more skilled, a lot better basketball vision and just much better natural athleticism than John on offense.

Defense, John is already a 6.5. Obi doesn't even have that as his potential. I see clear differences between the two as someone who watched every game of each player this year
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#32 » by clyde21 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:15 pm

King Ken wrote:
OGLife wrote:
King Ken wrote:It depends on your position but at the 4, perimeter defense is far more important as well as the ability to defend on PnRs. At the 1, defense is important but look at Kris Dunn to Trae Young. One of the worst offensive players to one of the worst defensive players while being one of the best opposite sides. Dunn is basically unstartable while Trae Young is a 21 year old All Star starter. So yes, offense is way more valuable than defense but as a big, both are equally important.

I'll rather an elite offensive player and a bad defender at the 4 over a pretty good offensive player and a below average defender all day though.

Post defense is really only critical at the 5.

I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the argument as to why Toppin should be a 5, regardless of what you say about his defense.

I actually see your point but there are only a few of us out there who see Obi as a major offensive impact type


yall gonna have Obi running your entire offenses like Trae? :-?
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#33 » by getrichordie » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:50 pm

King Ken wrote:
Monix wrote:
OGLife wrote:I feel like Toppin can be at the 4 to what Young is on offense at the 1

right team, wrong guy
the comp is John Collins - a 4 that gets buckets but does he help you win games?

Obi does a lot more than Collins on offense though. A lot more. He also has a lot better offensive tools. Collins is an elite movement specialist who is an excellent rebounder. Obi does so much on offense, it's crazy when you think about it.


Care to elaborate as to what it is that Toppin is doing that sets himself apart from Collins?
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#34 » by King Ken » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:09 pm

getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:
Monix wrote:right team, wrong guy
the comp is John Collins - a 4 that gets buckets but does he help you win games?

Obi does a lot more than Collins on offense though. A lot more. He also has a lot better offensive tools. Collins is an elite movement specialist who is an excellent rebounder. Obi does so much on offense, it's crazy when you think about it.


Care to elaborate as to what it is that Toppin is doing that sets himself apart from Collins?

Passing superior at every level and skill.
Vision
Decision making skills
Scheme versatility
Straight line handles
First step, John has an average at best for a big first step, Obi can beat guards off the dribble. His face up potential is superior
Explosiveness
Flexibility in the air
Stronger offensive player especially in the air
Higher feel for the game and natural BBIQ for Toppin
Superior instincts on defense to John

For John,
He has pro experience as an advantage
John is one of the fastest bigs out of breaks in NBA history with AD and he's the fastest PnR big I've ever
seen.
John speed and agility without the ball is world class and it's rare as a big with only AD having those rare skills. Obi is fast and quick but he's more like Amar'e and Horford in that area which is a tier or two behind.
John is a stronger defender.
John post defense has always looked better than Obi even as a young prospect
John has better lateral quickness even if his instincts is severely lacking in comparison to Toppin.
John is just a more versatile defender as he can defend at an average level at the 5. He's struggles a lot at the 4 on defense defending in space
John is an excellent rebounder, especially offensively. Obi is lacking at both in comparison.
John has superior rebounding instincts

Overall, Obi is just a superior offensive talent and capable of a lot more on offense than John but John is polished. Really improved as a 3pt shooter, and he is playing with the best PnR PG in the NBA. Both are elite finishers, have elite hands, both have excellent movement skills and both are highly consistent players.
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#35 » by Almond2Oak » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:23 am

King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:Obi does a lot more than Collins on offense though. A lot more. He also has a lot better offensive tools. Collins is an elite movement specialist who is an excellent rebounder. Obi does so much on offense, it's crazy when you think about it.


Care to elaborate as to what it is that Toppin is doing that sets himself apart from Collins?

Passing superior at every level and skill.
Vision
Decision making skills
Scheme versatility
Straight line handles
First step, John has an average at best for a big first step, Obi can beat guards off the dribble. His face up potential is superior
Explosiveness
Flexibility in the air
Stronger offensive player especially in the air
Higher feel for the game and natural BBIQ for Toppin
Superior instincts on defense to John

For John,
He has pro experience as an advantage
John is one of the fastest bigs out of breaks in NBA history with AD and he's the fastest PnR big I've ever
seen.
John speed and agility without the ball is world class and it's rare as a big with only AD having those rare skills. Obi is fast and quick but he's more like Amar'e and Horford in that area which is a tier or two behind.
John is a stronger defender.
John post defense has always looked better than Obi even as a young prospect
John has better lateral quickness even if his instincts is severely lacking in comparison to Toppin.
John is just a more versatile defender as he can defend at an average level at the 5. He's struggles a lot at the 4 on defense defending in space
John is an excellent rebounder, especially offensively. Obi is lacking at both in comparison.
John has superior rebounding instincts

Overall, Obi is just a superior offensive talent and capable of a lot more on offense than John but John is polished. Really improved as a 3pt shooter, and he is playing with the best PnR PG in the NBA. Both are elite finishers, have elite hands, both have excellent movement skills and both are highly consistent players.


First, Terrific post... I truly mean it, ya nailed it in breakdown. Btw I love Obi and think he’s getting downgraded for “old man”.

Biggest “issue” for Obi is, he’s only 6 months younger than John Collins. So the question is, can Obi who will be a Rookie next year produce the same as Collins, next year? That’s the biggest thing and going forward, Collins also has to develop his game but at this point Obi can’t touch Collins on a peer v. peer level because Obi is playing in college and JC is balling in nba at same age.

Biggest qs is can Obi take his game on same trajectory JC is going?
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#36 » by kg01 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:52 am

Kinda odd seeing people predict, definitively, what a rookie will do (not 'may' do, will do).

(Disclaimer: This is a bit of an inside thing between me and a certain poster, so don't mind me.)
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#37 » by getrichordie » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:57 am

King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:Obi does a lot more than Collins on offense though. A lot more. He also has a lot better offensive tools. Collins is an elite movement specialist who is an excellent rebounder. Obi does so much on offense, it's crazy when you think about it.


Care to elaborate as to what it is that Toppin is doing that sets himself apart from Collins?

Passing superior at every level and skill.
Vision
Decision making skills
Scheme versatility
Straight line handles
First step, John has an average at best for a big first step, Obi can beat guards off the dribble. His face up potential is superior
Explosiveness
Flexibility in the air
Stronger offensive player especially in the air
Higher feel for the game and natural BBIQ for Toppin
Superior instincts on defense to John

For John,
He has pro experience as an advantage
John is one of the fastest bigs out of breaks in NBA history with AD and he's the fastest PnR big I've ever
seen.
John speed and agility without the ball is world class and it's rare as a big with only AD having those rare skills. Obi is fast and quick but he's more like Amar'e and Horford in that area which is a tier or two behind.
John is a stronger defender.
John post defense has always looked better than Obi even as a young prospect
John has better lateral quickness even if his instincts is severely lacking in comparison to Toppin.
John is just a more versatile defender as he can defend at an average level at the 5. He's struggles a lot at the 4 on defense defending in space
John is an excellent rebounder, especially offensively. Obi is lacking at both in comparison.
John has superior rebounding instincts

Overall, Obi is just a superior offensive talent and capable of a lot more on offense than John but John is polished. Really improved as a 3pt shooter, and he is playing with the best PnR PG in the NBA. Both are elite finishers, have elite hands, both have excellent movement skills and both are highly consistent players.


So you are outright saying that those are things that current Obi has > current Collins?

I mean... Collins pretty damn good. Where do you think he goes in a 2017 re-draft?

And how do you explain Toppin's less-than-ideal FTr?
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#38 » by Spud2nique » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:59 am

kg01 wrote:Kinda odd seeing people predict, definitively, what a rookie will do (not 'may' do, will do).

(Disclaimer: This is a bit of an inside thing between me and a certain poster, so don't mind me.)


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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#39 » by Fischella » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:45 am

I really like Obi but the Pascal comp is really bad, his driving game isn't a strength
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Re: Why is Obi Toppin Not An Automatic Top 2? 

Post#40 » by King Ken » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm

getrichordie wrote:
King Ken wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Care to elaborate as to what it is that Toppin is doing that sets himself apart from Collins?

Passing superior at every level and skill.
Vision
Decision making skills
Scheme versatility
Straight line handles
First step, John has an average at best for a big first step, Obi can beat guards off the dribble. His face up potential is superior
Explosiveness
Flexibility in the air
Stronger offensive player especially in the air
Higher feel for the game and natural BBIQ for Toppin
Superior instincts on defense to John

For John,
He has pro experience as an advantage
John is one of the fastest bigs out of breaks in NBA history with AD and he's the fastest PnR big I've ever
seen.
John speed and agility without the ball is world class and it's rare as a big with only AD having those rare skills. Obi is fast and quick but he's more like Amar'e and Horford in that area which is a tier or two behind.
John is a stronger defender.
John post defense has always looked better than Obi even as a young prospect
John has better lateral quickness even if his instincts is severely lacking in comparison to Toppin.
John is just a more versatile defender as he can defend at an average level at the 5. He's struggles a lot at the 4 on defense defending in space
John is an excellent rebounder, especially offensively. Obi is lacking at both in comparison.
John has superior rebounding instincts

Overall, Obi is just a superior offensive talent and capable of a lot more on offense than John but John is polished. Really improved as a 3pt shooter, and he is playing with the best PnR PG in the NBA. Both are elite finishers, have elite hands, both have excellent movement skills and both are highly consistent players.


So you are outright saying that those are things that current Obi has > current Collins?

I mean... Collins pretty damn good. Where do you think he goes in a 2017 re-draft?

And how do you explain Toppin's less-than-ideal FTr?

You obviously have to take into account one player is adjusting to the NBA, NBA lifestyle, speed of the game which is the easiest transition for upperclassmen, 82 games which is the hardest for all but extremely hard for upperclassmen, as well as role changes. John like most 4th year NBA players are adjusting to his improvement areas and adding more to his bag if possible going for his major 2nd contract.

They aren't at the same stage of development. We must remember that. Otherwise you will just undervalue what Toppin is and can be in the short and long term.

His college style of play. He was used to make quick decisions on the ball at all times to make the best possible play. Ftr is one of those areas that should increase when he gets to the NBA just due to unlocking his straight line drive more. Grant's system is very UF 2004-2008 like with a lot of modern elements for Toppin to be at the top of the key or corner for their sets. Their modernize system just doesn't lead to high FT attempts in general.



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