Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick

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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#21 » by babyjax13 » Fri Oct 9, 2020 11:24 pm

nolang1 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I have him as the prospect with the highest upside in the draft, so I'd personally do it. My big board is:

1. Okoro
2. Wiseman
3. Hayes
4. Vassell
5. Edwards

Granted I'm no draft expert, but he's a tremendous defender who is deceptive on his way to the rim and seems to have some untapped ceiling per footwork and ball handling that could really unlock a ton for him. As long as his shot becomes passable, I like him a lot. Even if it doesn't, I think he will be a nice role player.


The one issue with this kind of thinking is that I could say Okongwu or Wiseman with the ability to hit threes like a guard or wing would have more upside than Okoro due to being bigger, and I don't think you can say Okoro is *that* much more likely to become a good shooter.


I don't think - in general - a stretch big is as impactful as an elite wing.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#22 » by nolang1 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:33 am

babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:I have him as the prospect with the highest upside in the draft, so I'd personally do it. My big board is:

1. Okoro
2. Wiseman
3. Hayes
4. Vassell
5. Edwards

Granted I'm no draft expert, but he's a tremendous defender who is deceptive on his way to the rim and seems to have some untapped ceiling per footwork and ball handling that could really unlock a ton for him. As long as his shot becomes passable, I like him a lot. Even if it doesn't, I think he will be a nice role player.


The one issue with this kind of thinking is that I could say Okongwu or Wiseman with the ability to hit threes like a guard or wing would have more upside than Okoro due to being bigger, and I don't think you can say Okoro is *that* much more likely to become a good shooter.


I don't think - in general - a stretch big is as impactful as an elite wing.


Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#23 » by babyjax13 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:43 am

nolang1 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
The one issue with this kind of thinking is that I could say Okongwu or Wiseman with the ability to hit threes like a guard or wing would have more upside than Okoro due to being bigger, and I don't think you can say Okoro is *that* much more likely to become a good shooter.


I don't think - in general - a stretch big is as impactful as an elite wing.


Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?


As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#24 » by nolang1 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:05 am

babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
I don't think - in general - a stretch big is as impactful as an elite wing.


Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?


As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.


Is there? Seems pretty dubious even before you consider whether all wings are equally likely to become good three-point shooters in the NBA or the ones who shoot sub 30% on threes in college might be much less likely than the ones who are already good shooters. I can think of plenty of NBA big men who didn't shoot threes in college and shoot it now because of how the game has evolved. It should be pretty noncontroversial and straightforward to say that a bigger player who's better at getting offensive rebounds, finishing, posting up, etc. is going to get more open looks from three and make a higher percentage of them assuming the same shooting touch. Plus when you look at stuff like scoring volume and efficiency, it's not entirely clear that Okoro has a much better perimeter shot than players like Wiseman or Okongwu who hit a higher percentage of their free throws and weren't shooting threes in college because they were that much more effective around the basket.

My main point is that of the 6'10" and up players who can shoot threes, most of them are deemed 'stretch bigs' because they're much worse at doing traditional big man type of stuff on offense than Wiseman or Okongwu and wouldn't have a role in the NBA if not for their shooting. Even someone like Myles Turner who is a much better defender than the typical stretch big has clear offensive limitations that were apparent in college. If he were as much of an interior presence on offense as those two figure to be, he'd be considered a star rather than a stretch big.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#25 » by Nazrmohamed » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:29 am

EMG518 wrote:
dolphinatik wrote:could have been taken out of context. Id rather trade for Kevin Knox than draft this guy. I think he could be a great role players he is willing to do what it takes but he does nothing great at the moment besides his elite athleticism.



Knox is available.


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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#26 » by Revenged25 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:43 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
I don't think - in general - a stretch big is as impactful as an elite wing.


Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?


As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.


It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#27 » by MemphisX » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:40 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?


As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.


It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.



It is not a big that is the problem. It is non-initiators. Wings that don't initiate offense do not lead their teams anywhere or have some surplus value either.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#28 » by nolang1 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:48 am

Revenged25 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Anthony Davis isn't a particularly great passer and has shot under 33% from 3 for his career on less than 1 made 3 per game, but that's enough for him to him to be one of the top players in the league when you add that to his finishing and defense; he's obviously not just a stretch big. I'm guessing that for Okoro to be an elite wing in your estimation, he'd have to shoot better than Davis because he's obviously too small to have that kind of defensive impact. So like I said, what's the reason that Okoro can become some 36% three-point shooter on good volume and the other players can't other than Okoro being smaller?


As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.


It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.


A) a prime Dwight Howard type of defender is inherently less valuable today than in 2012 because teams spread the floor and shoot threes more.

B) prime Dwight Howard left quite a bit on the table offensively by insisting on posting up far more than a player of his skillset should have.

C) even if prime Dwight Howard had played a more efficient brand of offense than he actually did, it's fair to say a player who's not quite as good of a finisher or offensive rebounder but is a good three-point shooter and hits substantially more than 50% on free throws would be much better on offense.

D) Dwight Howard was a very deserving no. 1 pick in his draft and a future Hall of Famer, which is one of quite a few obvious examples of how being the best player in a particular draft doesn't mean that the player needs to be the #1 player on a championship team.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#29 » by Revenged25 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:01 am

nolang1 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
As the best player on his team he has made the playoffs once. I'm not arguing that he isn't one of the best players in the league, but I just prefer wings in the draft. There is also a bigger history of wings being able to develop their shooting.


It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.


A) a prime Dwight Howard type of defender is inherently less valuable today than in 2012 because teams spread the floor and shoot threes more.

B) prime Dwight Howard left quite a bit on the table offensively by insisting on posting up far more than a player of his skillset should have.

C) even if prime Dwight Howard had played a more efficient brand of offense than he actually did, it's fair to say a player who's not quite as good of a finisher or offensive rebounder but is a good three-point shooter and hits substantially more than 50% on free throws would be much better on offense.


So why isn't KAT leading Minnesota to the playoffs or AD able to do it consistently?
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#30 » by nolang1 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:20 am

Revenged25 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.


A) a prime Dwight Howard type of defender is inherently less valuable today than in 2012 because teams spread the floor and shoot threes more.

B) prime Dwight Howard left quite a bit on the table offensively by insisting on posting up far more than a player of his skillset should have.

C) even if prime Dwight Howard had played a more efficient brand of offense than he actually did, it's fair to say a player who's not quite as good of a finisher or offensive rebounder but is a good three-point shooter and hits substantially more than 50% on free throws would be much better on offense.


So why isn't KAT leading Minnesota to the playoffs or AD able to do it consistently?


Because KAT is bad at defense while Dwight was the DPOY and and it's hard for anyone to do it consistently - there are like 8-10 players capable of consistently leading their teams to the playoffs (and obviously even fewer capable of leading whatever your standard of 'contender' is. So obviously it's not a given those players will be available every single draft. Plus like I said already, Dwight wasn't that positive of a player on offense due to his lack of shooting and insistence on wasting possessions with post-ups. AD averaged 30 a game in the playoffs before LeBron and his last playoff experience was sweeping the Blazers then losing to the Steph/KD Warriors as by far the best player on his team at age 24.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#31 » by NO-KG-AI » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:34 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
nolang1 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
It is definitely much harder for a big to lead a team to the playoffs without other good players around him. I think Howard with the Magic was the last big to be truly dominant enough on both sides of the ball to allow a system be built around his strengths and be a contender.


A) a prime Dwight Howard type of defender is inherently less valuable today than in 2012 because teams spread the floor and shoot threes more.

B) prime Dwight Howard left quite a bit on the table offensively by insisting on posting up far more than a player of his skillset should have.

C) even if prime Dwight Howard had played a more efficient brand of offense than he actually did, it's fair to say a player who's not quite as good of a finisher or offensive rebounder but is a good three-point shooter and hits substantially more than 50% on free throws would be much better on offense.


So why isn't KAT leading Minnesota to the playoffs or AD able to do it consistently?


Because both of their teams suck major ass, and Davis and the Pelicans were injured the entire time.

Which players are leading consistently bad and injured teams to the playoffs out West?
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#32 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:15 am

EvanZ wrote:If you are anywhere close to the top 5, you're supposed to say **** like that.


That's all there is to say about it.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#33 » by Hoopz Afrik » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:18 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Does anyone else find it a major disconnect with reality that a guy who averaged 12/4 in college is talking about how he thinks he should be the top pick? What happened to being a star first? I know it happens but seriously?


Legit question. Have you actually watched him play or is this take because his numbers appear pedestrian?
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#34 » by 100proof » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:33 pm

I would absolutely love him on the Celtics.

Sticking him into a lineup with Smart/Brown/Okoro/Tatum would be foolish defensively.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#35 » by MotownMadness » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:26 pm

100proof wrote:I would absolutely love him on the Celtics.

Sticking him into a lineup with Smart/Brown/Okoro/Tatum would be foolish defensively.

That would be nice
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#36 » by penbeast0 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:05 pm

Hoopz Afrik wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Does anyone else find it a major disconnect with reality that a guy who averaged 12/4 in college is talking about how he thinks he should be the top pick? What happened to being a star first? I know it happens but seriously?


Legit question. Have you actually watched him play or is this take because his numbers appear pedestrian?


I have not watched him enough to make a good judgment. It was purely a take based on his numbers.
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#37 » by NotACat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:41 pm

Great piece on Okoro I came across: https://thekickahead.com/home/the-isaac-okoro-report
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Re: Okoro thinks he should be the #1 pick 

Post#38 » by doordoor123 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:20 am

I think Okoro should be a top 3 pick in this draft for sure. He has crazy kind of athleticism, like superstar type and he shoots off like a cannon to the rim. Plus he's a great defender who can pass a little. I still don't have faith in his jumper or handle, but he can succeed with the skills he has right now. I dont think itll be like Jaylen Brown where he becomes a better shooter with NBA spacing. And with the way he plays I can't see him devloping his handle too much. But he also plays in a really destructive way, where I can see him getting injured a lot against NBA players. No one in the NBA is going to want to allow him to dunk on them or attack the paint in the way that he does. There have been stars who have adjusted and changed their game to play less reckless and to get to their spots, but it takes a lot of work to get there and it takes a smart player to get there. He's worth the gamble and won't be a total loss even if he doesnt grow his game.

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