Ranking These Euro Prospects

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Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#1 » by LivingLegend » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:25 pm

Hey all! Cavs fan here. So there are a lot of rumblings about the Cavs taking Deni if he is there and I was trying to gather more intel about him. There seems to be a swell of hype around him because of recent success of other Euro players but the common thing I see about him is that he is more of a projection of what he 'could' become and not what he currently is as a player. A lot of Cavs fans think hes closer to Osman than he is to Luka/Gallo as a prospect---is that true?

So anybody more informed than I am want to do 2 things for me. 1) What is the real draft profile around Deni, what are his strengths and in a perfect world if he works out--what level/style of player will he become in 2-3 years? 2) What other Euro prospects does he compare to? How exactly good is he compared to other successful Euro players to enter the draft such as: Gallo, Luka, Hedo, Jokic, Darko, Kristaps and any others you can think of.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#2 » by UcanUwill » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:34 pm

He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#3 » by namlede » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:47 pm

I think part of why Deni is rated high is because he is a jack knife.

Good body (strong, athletic, mobile) very strong mentally, good work ethic, his interviews seem very humble, a winner in the youth leagues plus senior league. Also he has much room to improve, when you watch him you see the skill and ability buts it's not a finished product. With time you could see him becoming a good defender, good passer, good rebounder, team leader, and possibly good shooter.

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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#4 » by LivingLegend » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:31 pm

UcanUwill wrote:He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.


Well......dam. Now I dont want them to draft him at all. Seems like he is just riding the coat tails of Lukas success and now every NBA team think every Euro is going to be the next big thing.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#5 » by UcanUwill » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:40 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.


Well......dam. Now I dont want them to draft him at all. Seems like he is just riding the coat tails of Lukas success and now every NBA team think every Euro is going to be the next big thing.



I dont think thats Luka contact high how I call it. Luka was completely different, its just that NBA gms always liked drafting Euro bench warmers, but that very rarely works out. People who always justify those selections say that these players are very young and its true, but if you are a 10th. man in Israel, do not expect rookie of the year in the NBA.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#6 » by Fischella » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:47 pm

Pre-draft;

Doncic

Porzingis
Gallinari
Avdija

Saric
Jokic

Don't remember Hedo and Milicic pre-draft at all
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#7 » by Fischella » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:48 pm

UcanUwill wrote:He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.

I respect how dedicated you are to the schtick :lol:
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#8 » by UcanUwill » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Fischella wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.

I respect how dedicated you are to the schtick :lol:


What shtick, thats my opinion, if hes so good, why was he just not good Euroleague player? Putting Avdija in same tier as Gallo is just insane, 19 year old Gallo was scoring in amazing ways on Euroleague team and was a star already, Avdija averaged 4 points per game, give me a break. We will see how good he looks, junior accomplishments are just that, Hezonja, Saric, Koufas all looked like superstars in FIBA juniors, we need to look how good players will be against grown men and if anything Euroleague is kinda a good sneak peak of what to expect. People here were high on Hezonja, they were high on Bender, and these players just like Avdija couldn't find playing time against average athletes like Brad Oleson (in Hezonja's case) or Quicy Acy and Zoozman in Avdija's case. People here just dont learn from history, you guys have nothing but faith that he will improve, but that can be said about anyone.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#9 » by Fischella » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:04 pm

19 year old Gallinari didn't play EuroLeague, only LEGA and yeah he was good

The rest we have discussed times and times again before, you are just that stubborn

Hezonja was ass, always had a bad attitude and terrible feel/IQ, with Saric and Koufos, their limitations were obvious for a good eye at youth level too, Bender had great tools and flashes he is just a party lover and never really worked hard

You are generalising without evaluating
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#10 » by UcanUwill » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:18 pm

Fischella wrote:19 year old Gallinari didn't play EuroLeague, only LEGA and yeah he was good

The rest we have discussed times and times again before, you are just that stubborn

Hezonja was ass, always had a bad attitude and terrible feel/IQ, with Saric and Koufos, their limitations were obvious for a good eye at youth level too, Bender had great tools and flashes he is just a party lover and never really worked hard

You are generalising without evaluating


I agree that Saric had clear limitations, but Avdija doesnt? We dont even know if he can shoot and he is very one hand dominant. Saric was more NBA ready. All you guys have is argument that he is younger and at that exact age guys like Saric, Gallo and Kristaps were also unproven. Thats completely true, but these players proved themselves very quickly after that when they got the chance, and Deni just didnt. If he played this year and was much improved Jokubaitis style, I might have had completely different opinion, but he choose to sit out without a club and wait for the draft and NBA season, so what we have is just last season. I understand that it is hard for 18/19 year old player to be great, but this argument that player X and Y also wasnt good at same age but they turned out good, is just hope, not every player becomes NBA player just because he is 18. Guys like Doncic, Valanciunas, Rubio proved that if they are truly NBA caliber, they will play and be good in Europe very soon in their careers.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#11 » by UcanUwill » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:58 pm

Everyone ranks this kid high, so I acknowledge that I am the idiot here, please explain me why Avdija is so much better than Dzanan Musa? I feel they are very similar, but to me Avdija is poor mans Musa if anything, Dzanan was better against pros with far less filled body type, and in juniors he was more dominant than Avdija as well, also winning titles with unlikely Bosnian team and even putting a 50 point game in juniors world cup. So what makes Deni Avdija better than Musa, because I just dont get it.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#12 » by LivingLegend » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:43 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Fischella wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:He barely played for Maccabi in Euroleague even when team was raved with injuries, so its hard for me to hype him. I think Hezonja was better Euroleague player at a time, tho they both were 2 big nothings. Afdija is very good in his age competition, winning gold as primary ball handler, he is 6'9 with strong body who can guard multiple positions, very few times he got burn in the Euroleague, he played very good defense covering players from SG to PF position. He also has playmaking potential, but he cant dribble with his left hand, so again hard to hype him as a sure thing, tho he has vision and feel for the game.

He is kinda like Dario Saric but more athletic, tho Saric was more dominant junior player and far more proven in Euroleague at a time he signed with NBA team. So picture Saric with better athleticism, but worse everything else.

To me its a bit crazy he is listed so high in the draft, college class must be absolutely brutal, otherwise I wouldnt justify him being ranked so high.

Out of the players you mentioned, I would say Deni is the worst prospect out of them all for sure.

I respect how dedicated you are to the schtick :lol:


What shtick, thats my opinion, if hes so good, why was he just not good Euroleague player? Putting Avdija in same tier as Gallo is just insane, 19 year old Gallo was scoring in amazing ways on Euroleague team and was a star already, Avdija averaged 4 points per game, give me a break. We will see how good he looks, junior accomplishments are just that, Hezonja, Saric, Koufas all looked like superstars in FIBA juniors, we need to look how good players will be against grown men and if anything Euroleague is kinda a good sneak peak of what to expect. People here were high on Hezonja, they were high on Bender, and these players just like Avdija couldn't find playing time against average athletes like Brad Oleson (in Hezonja's case) or Quicy Acy and Zoozman in Avdija's case. People here just dont learn from history, you guys have nothing but faith that he will improve, but that can be said about anyone.


I do remember a lot of hype with Bender/Hezonja but they both fell flat on their face in the NBA. Especially Hezonja for the hype he was receiving out of the Euro league
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#13 » by Curtis Lemansky » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:16 am

Pre draft Hedo (though he didn't have the problems at the free throw line)

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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#14 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:54 pm

LivingLegend wrote:I do remember a lot of hype with Bender/Hezonja but they both fell flat on their face in the NBA. Especially Hezonja for the hype he was receiving out of the Euro league


That's an indictment on NBA scouts and GMs. And the "hype" is an indictment on US sports media and its typical ridiculousness when it comes to any sports outside of the USA. No one who had any serious basketball knowledge, and had actually watched them play in Europe, thought either one of them was any good at all. There was thread after thread in these forums with people that actually watched them play games that said they were going to be obvious busts.

The NBA is VERY bad at scouting and evaluating players in Europe. They often draft 12th-13th men from EuroLeague teams high in the draft, and they often fail to draft better European players at all.

I mean, they didn't even draft someone like Theo Papaloukas, who at 6-7, had insane level handles, insane level court vision and passing, and he was also very athletic at that age. While on the other hand, they draft guys like Skita and Bender with top 5 picks......you can't trust US sports media, or NBA teams at all on players from Europe. You especially can't trust these "draft gurus" that work in US sports media on European players.

UcanUwill wrote:I understand that it is hard for 18/19 year old player to be great, but this argument that player X and Y also wasnt good at same age but they turned out good, is just hope, not every player becomes NBA player just because he is 18. Guys like Doncic, Valanciunas, Rubio proved that if they are truly NBA caliber, they will play and be good in Europe very soon in their careers.


Rubio wasn't any good in EuroLeague prior to the NBA either. Valanciunas was just OK. Doncic was the only one that was a good EuroLeague player. Unless by Europe, you mean performance in other competitions. With that being said, they were all obviously better in EuroLeague than Avdija was.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#15 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:02 pm

Papaloukas belonged to the 1999 draft class man and at the time he was playing in greek 2nd division for Dafni

Like be real
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#16 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:07 pm

Fischella wrote:Papaloukas belonged to the 1999 draft class man and at the time he was playing in greek 2nd division for Dafni

Like be real


I will be real. The Greek 2nd division is a fully pro men's league in Europe. G-League teams have a record of 1-6 against Greek 2nd division teams. Teams from Greece's 3rd division have a record of 4-2 against NCAA DI teams.

In 1999, believe it or not, NBA scouts had internet, they had the ability to record games and watch them, and they had scouts all over Europe. They also scouted all of the youth competitions already at that time, and Papaloukas played in youth level of FIBA.

So yeah, let's be real. The NBA is absolutely a complete joke, when it comes to their ability to scout European players.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#17 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:09 pm

1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#18 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:11 pm

Rubio wasn't a good fit in Euro ball, his Euroleague stats were terrible, but NBA skills were clear, handle, defense, creativity, he always was the guy whose stats are WAY worse than his actual impact, so I wouldnt say he wasnt any good in Euroleague, he had his place. Valanciunas was 17 when playing in Euroleague, and he was putting prime Mirsad Turkcan rebounding rates and scoring on ridiculous efficiency in the pick and rolls and around the rim, it was clear he had more talent than more experienced players around him and that he is outgrowing EUropean competion.

And thats what I am looking at when evaluating those prospects. TO me, Doumbaya, Bender and Avdija didnt show any signs that they are outgrowing European level of competition, where guys liek Vlaanciunas, Gallinari or Nurkic did show that. It will sound weird, but you can be 7th. man on a team and still show that, and some guys show it and some dont. Avdija did not show that from what I saw. If someone came out to me and said, ZAlgiris (my EL team) just signed Afdija or Doumbaya on 6 year contract, I would be like, ok fine, I wouldnt think, wow we are getting best Euroleague player in few years, I would just think we are just getting a decent young body to throw in, and if I dont get excited about prospect on Euroleague level, what am I suppose to do with them in the NBA?
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#19 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:14 pm

Rubio wasn't a good fit in that Barça team but he was amazing in ACB before with Joventut, it was Pascual's fault/Rubio's limitations/roster fit, all together mixed, he still had good advanced impact numbers though

That's just way too simplistic in terms of evaluating talent though, production isn't even close to the most important factor, but you really don't seem to get that

Avdija earned EL minutes in a top4 team through defense and closed some games in EL, if that doesn't tell you something I don't really know what might

Comparing him to Bender, Sekou, Hezonja and so on it's just ridiculous, esp the croats who were known troublemakers, Hezonja with his attitude/IQ and Bender as a partylover

Deni is a workhorse
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#20 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:15 pm

UcanUwill wrote:What shtick, thats my opinion, if hes so good, why was he just not good Euroleague player? Putting Avdija in same tier as Gallo is just insane, 19 year old Gallo was scoring in amazing ways on Euroleague team and was a star already, Avdija averaged 4 points per game, give me a break. We will see how good he looks, junior accomplishments are just that, Hezonja, Saric, Koufas all looked like superstars in FIBA juniors, we need to look how good players will be against grown men and if anything Euroleague is kinda a good sneak peak of what to expect. People here were high on Hezonja, they were high on Bender, and these players just like Avdija couldn't find playing time against average athletes like Brad Oleson (in Hezonja's case) or Quicy Acy and Zoozman in Avdija's case. People here just dont learn from history, you guys have nothing but faith that he will improve, but that can be said about anyone.


Brad Oleson was pretty damn athletic back in the day. I don't remember exactly how he was athletically at the time Hezonja was behind him in Barca's roster though. I do remember that at the end of his career, he was really slow and had lost most of his athletic ability. But I also remember the younger version of Oleson, and he was very athletic. Definitely more athletic than Mario was. I mean that guy was like 6-3 and he used to dunk on 7 footers, he played great man defense, and he ran around for screens the whole game - so he was very athletic. But by that time, it was probably the version of Oleson that lost his athletic ability. I can't remember for sure.

As far as Acy and Zoosman go, they are both very athletic. So I'm not sure what you men by "average athletes". Or did you mean "average players"? In that case, yeah, Oleson (by that age) and Acy were average rotation players in EuroLeague. Zoosman would be worse than that, at least for now.

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