Ranking These Euro Prospects

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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#21 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:16 pm

Fischella wrote:1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent


This might sound weird, because this guy never actually became anything, so maybe his draft position was correct, but I never understood how Robertas Javtokas dropped to 50s in his draft? He was so athletic, before his infamous moto accident he looked like insane athlete, I would imagine if same type of prospect were in 2010 draft, he would have a been a lottery pick, no? Around same value as Drummond the UCONN prospect.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#22 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:20 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:As far as Acy and Zoosman go, they are both very athletic. So I'm not sure what you men by "average athletes". Or did you mean "average players"? In that case, yeah, Oleson (by that age) and Acy were average rotation players in EuroLeague. Zoosman would be worse than that, at least for now.


I mean average players, yes. Acy is an athlete, but he is not much of the player.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#23 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:25 pm

UcanUwill wrote:I mean average players, yes. Acy is an athlete, but he is not much of the player.


True. Acy is good at defense and dunking. But he can't do much more than that.

Fischella wrote:1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent


Yes it is. I read an interview where Papaloukas saaid he was at the youth draft camps, where NBA scouts were also. He also played at FIBA youth competitions in Europe, which have been heavily scouted by the NBA since the 1980s. And Papaloukas isn't the only such glaring example.

Siskauskas
Diamantidis
Teodosic
Bourousis
etc.
etc.

The list goes on and on and on. Of players from the last 15-20 years that were not even drafted. Compared to the great draft picks like Skita or Bender, or Yaroslav Korolev, etc., etc.

And they have had that huge Treviso EuroCamp since 2002 I believe. So zero excuses for any misses from 2002 onward.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#24 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:31 pm

UcanUwill wrote:This might sound weird, because this guy never actually became anything, so maybe his draft position was correct, but I never understood how Robertas Javtokas dropped to 50s in his draft? He was so athletic, before his infamous moto accident he looked like insane athlete, I would imagine if same type of prospect were in 2010 draft, he would have a been a lottery pick, no? Around same value as Drummond the UCONN prospect.


I am sure the NBA didn't actually believe that a white European player could be that athletic. And people really exaggerated greatly the effect that accident had on him. His vertical was 48 inches before the accident and 40 inches after it. I still remember him doing some insane dunks even when he was over 30.

I mean he was an absolute freak athlete, even after the accident. Unfortunately, he never had much skill though. In his prime he was kind of like a European version of Dwight Howard I guess. 50s draft position was way too low, based on his potential.

He never played for the Spurs, but it's not like Oberto and Rasho, who were starters with the Spurs, were that much better than he was.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#25 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:36 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
Fischella wrote:1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent


This might sound weird, because this guy never actually became anything, so maybe his draft position was correct, but I never understood how Robertas Javtokas dropped to 50s in his draft? He was so athletic, before his infamous moto accident he looked like insane athlete, I would imagine if same type of prospect were in 2010 draft, he would have a been a lottery pick, no? Around same value as Drummond the UCONN prospect.


I am sure the NBA didn't actually believe that a white European player could be that athletic. And people really exaggerated greatly the effect that accident had on him. His vertical was 48 inches before the accident and 40 inches after it. I still remember him doing some insane dunks even when he was over 30.

I mean he was an absolute freak athlete, even after the accident. Unfortunately, he never had much skill though.


He never had skill, especially on offense, and he remained above the rim player, but post accident his defense really became noticeably worse. Some guys are just so used to using their athleticism, even the slight decline would mess them up big time. Before accident he had moments where he could block opponent sky hooks and he could switch, and protect the rime at NBA level, where post injury he was just good, but not special anymore. On offense he was robotic with zero skill yes, but man that guy could block shots and finish lobs better than any big at a time almost.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#26 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:41 pm

UcanUwill wrote:He never had skill, especially on offense, and he remained above the rim player, but post accident his defense really became noticeably worse. Some guys are just so used to using their athleticism, even the slight decline would mess them up big time. Before accident he had moments where he could block opponent sky hooks and he could switch, and protect the rime at NBA level, where post injury he was just good, but not special anymore. On offense he was robotic with zero skill yes, but man that guy could block shots and finish lobs better than any big at a time almost.


Zeljko Obradovic is good friends with Gregg Popovich, and Obradovic supposedly really didn't like Javtokas when he was at Panathinaikos. Maybe he told Popovich to not sign him or something. It's odd he never played in the NBA, because he was like the stereotypical NBA player, with huge size, very aggressive style of play and incredible athleticism. Him being a white Euro would explain it, for any team other than the Spurs, that never believed in those stupid things like other teams. So there had to be something weird as to why the Spurs never looked at him.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#27 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:43 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Fischella wrote:1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent


This might sound weird, because this guy never actually became anything, so maybe his draft position was correct, but I never understood how Robertas Javtokas dropped to 50s in his draft? He was so athletic, before his infamous moto accident he looked like insane athlete, I would imagine if same type of prospect were in 2010 draft, he would have a been a lottery pick, no? Around same value as Drummond the UCONN prospect.

Drummond was an absurd athlete, as strong and explosive as Javtokas was, I don't think they were close there, Javtokas also did nothing in AZ as a freshman before leaving for Rytas and I am sure back then that hurt his stock
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#28 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:44 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:So zero excuses for any misses from 2002 onward.

This is such a terrible mindset, the draft is about misses and undersstandint that they are unavoidable
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#29 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:45 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:He never had skill, especially on offense, and he remained above the rim player, but post accident his defense really became noticeably worse. Some guys are just so used to using their athleticism, even the slight decline would mess them up big time. Before accident he had moments where he could block opponent sky hooks and he could switch, and protect the rime at NBA level, where post injury he was just good, but not special anymore. On offense he was robotic with zero skill yes, but man that guy could block shots and finish lobs better than any big at a time almost.


Zeljko Obradovic is good friends with Gregg Popovich, and Obradovic supposedly really didn't like Javtokas when he was at Panathinaikos. Maybe he told Popovich to not sign him or something. It's odd he never played in the NBA, because he was like the stereotypical NBA player, with huge size, very aggressive style of play and incredible athleticism. Him being a white Euro would explain it, for any team other than the Spurs, that never believed in those stupid things like other teams. So there had to be something weird as to why the Spurs never looked at him.


His Panathinaikos season remains his biggest dark spot in his career if you exclude the injury. For some reason he didnt fit on that team at all, I remember seeing Panathinaikos fans say Javtokas is worst Panathinaikos big of all time, and I am like - What? How is that possible?
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#30 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:45 pm

Fischella wrote:Drummond was an absurd athlete, as strong and explosive as Javtokas was, I don't think they were close there, Javtokas also did nothing in AZ as a freshman before leaving for Rytas and I am sure back then that hurt his stock


Man, young Javtokas was a one of a kind freak athlete. Like Wilt level athleticism.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#31 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:46 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:His vertical was 48 inches before the accident and 40 inches after it.

:lol:

By the way, nowhere near the athlete Dwight was, being athletic aint only about being strong and jumping high

Howard was a real freak, like a top5 athlete ever in the sport
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#32 » by UcanUwill » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:49 pm

Fischella wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:
Fischella wrote:1999 was what it was, guys went under the radar way more, like I said be real, it's not a big deal that a 22yo dude with 0 first division experience went udfa in 1999, it ain't proof of anything about good or bad NBA teams are today at drafting or evaluating european talent


This might sound weird, because this guy never actually became anything, so maybe his draft position was correct, but I never understood how Robertas Javtokas dropped to 50s in his draft? He was so athletic, before his infamous moto accident he looked like insane athlete, I would imagine if same type of prospect were in 2010 draft, he would have a been a lottery pick, no? Around same value as Drummond the UCONN prospect.

Drummond was an absurd athlete, as strong and explosive as Javtokas was, I don't think they were close there, Javtokas also did nothing in AZ as a freshman before leaving for Rytas and I am sure back then that hurt his stock


Drummond was insane athlete, but his motor was very questionable at UCONN. He was still drafted in the top 10 just because his athleticism, since his college season was super underwhelming. So to me its strange seeing some guys ranked so high just because of athleticism, while others not ranked at all while also being insane athletes. I mean if not the Spurs, Javtokas probably goes undrafted.

But Drummond turned out as NBA starter, while Javtokas didn't so maybe I Misread and overrate young Javtokas?
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#33 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:50 pm

UcanUwill wrote:His Panathinaikos season remains his biggest dark spot in his career if you exclude the injury. For some reason he didnt fit on that team at all, I remember seeing Panathinaikos fans say Javtokas is worst Panathinaikos big of all time, and I am like - What? How is that possible?


Obradovic is well known for being a real a-hole. If a player does anything that he doesn't like, they go to the dog house forever. That's probably what happened. Then again, Obradovic's offense is almost nothing but pick and roll for 40 minutes, and Javtokas was not that good at pick and roll. Even though you would think he would be amazing at diving to the basket, he just didn't seem to have a feel for it.

Considering that Javtokas was said to have a bit of an attitude at times and some said his work ethic wasn't the best, I am guessing that he clashed with Obradovic, since Obradovic has to be the main ego on all his teams, and he demands 100% in practice at all times.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#34 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:51 pm

Because Drummond was that absurd of an athlete man, he would still go top10 in a re-draft even if he is kinda old fasioned

He is a mountain of a man with guard level of speed and quicks, the dude has the strongest lower body in the league (maybe Ayton is up there now), giant shoulders, hands, he is a giant

He carries 300lbs like it's nothing

There is a differentiation between really good athletes and freaks
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#35 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:52 pm

Fischella wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:His vertical was 48 inches before the accident and 40 inches after it.

:lol:

By the way, nowhere near the athlete Dwight was, being athletic aint only about being strong and jumping high

Howard was a real freak, like a top5 athlete ever in the sport


Dude, I am 100% certain you never saw young Javtokas.............absolutely no way. Young Javtokas was probably the second most athletic European player I've ever seen.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#36 » by Fischella » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:55 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Fischella wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:His vertical was 48 inches before the accident and 40 inches after it.

:lol:

By the way, nowhere near the athlete Dwight was, being athletic aint only about being strong and jumping high

Howard was a real freak, like a top5 athlete ever in the sport


Dude, I am 100% certain you never saw young Javtokas.............

Dude I worked for Robertas for 3 months, I can text him right now

Maybe you do not know how verticals work? a 7'0 270lbs man having a 48'' vertical is literally physically impossible, like the max vertical record in the NBA combine's history is at 46''

It's like you defending that you ride a dragon to go to work
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#37 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:56 pm

Fischella wrote:Dude I worked for Robertas for 3 months, I can text him right now

Maybe you do not know how verticals work? a 7'0 270lbs man having a 48'' vertical is literally physically impossible

It's like you defending that you ride a dragon to go to work


Whatever you say. But no way in hell was Dwight Howard more athletic than pre accident Javtokas. Absolutely no freaking way in hell.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#38 » by LivingLegend » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:14 pm

Fischella wrote:Rubio wasn't a good fit in that Barça team but he was amazing in ACB before with Joventut, it was Pascual's fault/Rubio's limitations/roster fit, all together mixed, he still had good advanced impact numbers though

That's just way too simplistic in terms of evaluating talent though, production isn't even close to the most important factor, but you really don't seem to get that

Avdija earned EL minutes in a top4 team through defense and closed some games in EL, if that doesn't tell you something I don't really know what might

Comparing him to Bender, Sekou, Hezonja and so on it's just ridiculous, esp the croats who were known troublemakers, Hezonja with his attitude/IQ and Bender as a partylover

Deni is a workhorse


Since you seem pro-Deni, can you give me a comparison of a current NBA player his style is like if he pans out? If he actually works out what level of player are we looking at here
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#39 » by clyde21 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:57 am

problem with Deni is that he doesn't do anything NBA level right now, he's okay across the board and plays hard but there isn't a translatable skill on day one that'll guarantee him minutes

i get the hype but I don't see an obvious path there, good teens pick but that's all for me.
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Re: Ranking These Euro Prospects 

Post#40 » by Stillwater » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:01 am

Fischella wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Fischella wrote: :lol:

By the way, nowhere near the athlete Dwight was, being athletic aint only about being strong and jumping high

Howard was a real freak, like a top5 athlete ever in the sport


Dude, I am 100% certain you never saw young Javtokas.............

Dude I worked for Robertas for 3 months, I can text him right now

Maybe you do not know how verticals work? a 7'0 270lbs man having a 48'' vertical is literally physically impossible, like the max vertical record in the NBA combine's history is at 46''

It's like you defending that you ride a dragon to go to work

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