2021 international class

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2021 international class 

Post#1 » by clyde21 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:55 pm

as much as I like the 21 draft class overall, the international side seems like kind of a weak point right now, outside of Garuba do we have any sure fire 1st rounder international guys at this point?

i like Roko/Giddey/Badji, but not really sure how high tbh, it's a wait and see. i know some like Sengun but not a huge fan. guys like Cazalon, Alocen and Joku are more names but kinda up in the air right now.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#2 » by GimmeDat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:34 am

I like Giddey too, but I'm of the opinion that Mojave King is arguably the better prospect (or at least equal).

I also think he's in a better NBL situation.. Giddey is on a team with no spacing and trying to play dual 7 footers together in the front-court, it's just a bit of a mess imo. As a big initiator type, I absolutely buy Giddey's passing, but he's an average scorer that is still working on his shooting.. they're also trying to run him both on and off the ball. He spent pre-season playing PG but that was without imports against half-active rosters.. they're bringing in Donald Sloan for him to play next to. On the plus side he's a legit 6'8 now and with true on-ball initiator qualities, there's certainly plenty of upside.

King is a better athlete, great 2 way tools, people don't realize just how good a shooter he is and he's started encorporating some creation/off dribble shot making to the repertoire. Also a smart passer who, at least in Australia, will run some PG reps and make solid reads, so I think there's potential for him as a secondary ball-handler/creator in time. Defensively he's good on-ball and makes plays with his athleticism, occasionally falls asleep off-ball but he's highlighted that as a main area he's trying to focus on. He's on a run and gun team with great spacing, elite imports and a top notch floor general PG (Scott Machado).

He probably won't declare or anything but I want to highlight Taine Murray also. He's committed to Virginia and is playing with Hampton's old NBL team, New Zealand Breakers, as an unpaid development player (to retain college eligibility). I honestly don't think he's too far behind the aforementioned two as a prospect, really talented shooter with handling chops and solid athleticism, very good defender also. Will be hard for him to get minutes at NZ because they're pretty deep this year so maybe more a future guy to take note of.

As for the non-Aus internationals, obviously the guys you mentioned. I've really liked Roko's progress in particluar.

Juhann Begarin is probably worth mentioning, I've never been super high on him though. A draftable guy but not a potential 1st imo.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#3 » by Catchall » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:50 am

Roko could possibly go in the mid-20s to a system-driven team, imo, like Samanic did two years ago. I'm not sure Roko is really any better than Samanic though, if he's even as good.

I'm not a believer in Amar Sylla, but he could go in the late 2nd round.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#4 » by babyjax13 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:50 am

Juhann Bagarin looks nice in highlights, that's about where I am on him, haha : )
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#5 » by UcanUwill » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:16 am

Jokubaitis has to be a first rounder at this point, or his lack of potential places him outside top 30?
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#6 » by Mirotic12 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:02 pm

UcanUwill wrote:Jokubaitis has to be a first rounder at this point, or his lack of potential places him outside top 30?


I like him, because he's really tough, aggressive and physical. Really strong. For a European comparison, he's sort of like a Jaka Blazic type, with a better basketball IQ. I can't really think of similar kinds of European players being drafted before. I'd have to think about it.

If he was French, he'd be a top 10 pick. If he was Greek, he'd have zero chance of being drafted. He's Lithuanian, but he's not a big man (NBA likes Lithuanians, as long as they are bigs)......just going by the logic the uses of clearly drafting based on stereotypes and nationalities for European players.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#7 » by Catchall » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:06 pm

I guess Franz Wagner is not really considered an international prospect, but I'm keeping an eye on him. He could potentially be 1st-round grade, imo. Good size, mobility, shooting range, feel and IQ, although his shot hasn't been falling much for him. I'm wondering what he can do playing on the ball.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#8 » by clyde21 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:34 pm

i like Wagner but I don't really consider guys playing in the NCAA internationals at this point if I'm watching them in the NCAA like everyone else
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#9 » by Marcus » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:53 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Jokubaitis has to be a first rounder at this point, or his lack of potential places him outside top 30?


I like him, because he's really tough, aggressive and physical. Really strong. For a European comparison, he's sort of like a Jaka Blazic type, with a better basketball IQ. I can't really think of similar kinds of European players being drafted before. I'd have to think about it.

If he was French, he'd be a top 10 pick. If he was Greek, he'd have zero chance of being drafted. He's Lithuanian, but he's not a big man (NBA likes Lithuanians, as long as they are bigs)......just going by the logic the uses of clearly drafting based on stereotypes and nationalities for European players.


You were doing so well until that second paragraph
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#10 » by Mickey8 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:05 am

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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#11 » by Catchall » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:59 pm

There's a Belgian kid Vrenz Bleijenbergh who has stood out in Eurocup. He's 6'10" and has some shooting and playmaking potential. He's still physically underdeveloped, and to be honest, he's giving me a bit of a Dzanan Musa vibe. Anyone know much about him?

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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#12 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:31 pm

Marcus wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:Jokubaitis has to be a first rounder at this point, or his lack of potential places him outside top 30?


I like him, because he's really tough, aggressive and physical. Really strong. For a European comparison, he's sort of like a Jaka Blazic type, with a better basketball IQ. I can't really think of similar kinds of European players being drafted before. I'd have to think about it.

If he was French, he'd be a top 10 pick. If he was Greek, he'd have zero chance of being drafted. He's Lithuanian, but he's not a big man (NBA likes Lithuanians, as long as they are bigs)......just going by the logic the uses of clearly drafting based on stereotypes and nationalities for European players.


You were doing so well until that second paragraph


One of the biggest draft sites actually admitted before that NBA scouts do scout based on nationality. They do use a player's nationality in their scouting and in their determinations, and that they do use stereotypes for players, based on where they are from.

If you follow European basketball closely, you can easily see there is an extreme bias by the NBA in favor of French players. If any young French player even shows up on the rotation of a European team, they are immediately put into first round, or even lotto mock rankings.

This happens for absolutely no other nationality of players. Just look at guys like Okobo, Ntilikina, Howard Carter, Ajinca, Doumbouya, Hayes, Maledon, Toupane, Luwawu-Cabarrot, Lauvergne, Hoard, Ingles, Mahinmi, Moiso, Petro, Sy, etc.

Several European countries have numerous prospects that are better and more talented than such players every single year that don't even get drafted. You have numerous French guys being drafted by the NBA, even if they are not in the top 30 best players in Europe in their age group.

There is no chance at all that this happens by shear luck and good fortune of French players.

There is also a pro bias favor for Spanish players and for players from any of the former Yugo countries. There also seems to be a bias in favor of Turkish players recently.

While there is very clearly a strong bias against players from some other countries. Always against Greek players. Seems to now also be the case for players from Russia in recent years. Some countries seem to have players drafted pretty much as you would expect, not more than they should, or less than they should, like Italy for example.

But there is no way that the number of French players being drafted is based on just the level of the players, as compared to what other European countries have. I think the main reason is fairly obvious, as back in the 1980s, the French League and French Federation made a huge marketing partnership with the NBA in France. It is something that no other country has done with the NBA, not even China.

Before that, the NBA never even looked at a player from France. But by the time those marketing deals had really taken off, the NBA was suddenly looking for French players, and then after the Spurs hit on Parker, it is just a very obvious NBA policy to draft any French player that even makes a European team's rotation, no matter if they are not even in the top 500 best players in Europe, they will be drafted, and likely in the first round. And if they just somehow manage to be getting playing time on like a second tier level team, like in the EuroCup or something, then it's a very good chance they go in the lotto, even if they are a very average at best player.

There are always some non-French European players that are definitely better than the French players being drafted in the first round, that don't even get taken in the 2nd round.

I am sure that the NBA hopes to eventually have the same kind of marketing situations in the UK and Germany, and that they would be drafting any player with a pulse from there as well.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#13 » by Mickey8 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Catchall wrote:There's a Belgian kid Vrenz Bleijenbergh who has stood out in Eurocup. He's 6'10" and has some shooting and playmaking potential. He's still physically underdeveloped, and to be honest, he's giving me a bit of a Dzanan Musa vibe. Anyone know much about him?


He better not be Dzanan Musa because he wont make it in the NBA.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#14 » by pohani komarac » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:33 am

Catchall wrote:Roko could possibly go in the mid-20s to a system-driven team, imo, like Samanic did two years ago. I'm not sure Roko is really any better than Samanic though, if he's even as good.

I'm not a believer in Amar Sylla, but he could go in the late 2nd round.


He is better than Šamanić. And more importantly he looks mentally strong and plays already some serious basketball. He is not project, more locked to be good player. How good depend mostly on how much he can polish his offensive game. More precisely his shooting and 1 on 1 perimeter game.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#15 » by a-French-Fan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:56 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
If he was French, he'd be a top 10 pick. If he was Greek, he'd have zero chance of being drafted. He's Lithuanian, but he's not a big man (NBA likes Lithuanians, as long as they are bigs)......just going by the logic the uses of clearly drafting based on stereotypes and nationalities for European players.


You were doing so well until that second paragraph


If you follow European basketball closely, you can easily see there is an extreme bias by the NBA in favor of French players. If any young French player even shows up on the rotation of a European team, they are immediately put into first round, or even lotto mock rankings.

This happens for absolutely no other nationality of players. Just look at guys like Okobo, Ntilikina, Howard Carter, Ajinca, Doumbouya, Hayes, Maledon, Toupane, Luwawu-Cabarrot, Lauvergne, Hoard, Ingles, Mahinmi, Moiso, Petro, Sy, etc.



Theo Maledon shew more than Jokubaitis at the same age and felt to second round ...

This year Jokubaitis is 20 and really shows great things in Euroleague, like you and some others here, I expect in in first round, but maybe not top ten because ... he will be almost 21 years for his first NBA game. So he improved a lot this year, but what could we expect for next years?

I see that you went on Wikipedia to find a max of french players, because Howard Carter get naturalized french several years after his NBA career. If you consider him as a french NBA player, it's ok, but add Bob Cousy :)

If I take your list:
Okobo had 44 points in a PO game in french league a month before draft. He was almost 21 and had a 13 pts per game. It was a pretty good choice for second round.
Ntilikina was U18 Euro MVP and by far. But I admit, his role with Strasbourg was not so important, and 8th pick was really to high. And then he plays for the Knicks... So wait and see him playing in an other context before making a definitive judgement ^^
Howard Carter ... maybe you meant William Howard ... He was not drafted.
Ajinça? He was tall. But nobody except Larry Brown expected him at first round! A draft bust like a lot of other draft busts (Hello Darko ^^)
Sekou Doumbouya was in U18 Euro first team at ... 16 years old. Then was not just a rotation with Poitiers and Limoges. He is potential all-star. Actually the best french potential in NBA. But his past behaviour was not really great.
Malédon: Had shown his real potential with ASVEL in Eurocup, and then was injuried two months in a very short Euroleague season. So he felt to the second round. A real shame for a lot of NBA scouts (except OKC).
Hayes: was not just a rotation, but run a (bad) eurocup team. NBA scouts should understand the difference between Euroleague and Eurocup ... Good stats in Eurocup + good communication = 7th pick
Toupane-Hoard-Inglis (and not Ingles ^^); Undrafted, had not NBA level.
Luwavu-Cabarrot: Went to KK Mega Leks to show up. It has paid. Finally he showed interesting things in DisneyWorld and during begginning of this season. Maybe I will think about him for Paris 2024 (see my signature).
Lauvergne: 55th pick after a solid year in Partizan ... it was not a scandal. Then he had really a good second year with Partizan. But was not really a NBA player. If you need a warrior in Europe: take him. I think he is at the right place in Zalgiris.
Moiso: was a good NCAA player, and then a terrible bust. But he wasn't draft because he shew up in a European team.
Petro: I never understood how he stayed 8 years in NBA ...
Sy: second round, had not NBA level . You may add Michineau, Cordinier, Cornelie

Finally we had a lot of guys in second round or undrafted who were very trash.

At first round we had bust with big men (Moiso, Petro, Yabusele, Ajinca), sometimes they were drafted too high (Ntilikina, Pietrus), but sometimes too low (Fournier, Batum and Diaw) or even were real steals (Parker and Gobert, eventually Malédon). I keep aside players with serious injuries like Rodrigue Beaubois, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, Livio Jean-Charles (who took years to come-back to a decent level and was best player of ASVEL last year in Euroleague) or even Kevin Séraphin (already retired because of his knees). Look other countries who spent a lot of players into NBA you will find similar things. And forget the partnership between NBA and LNB, Malédon was pick #34, and Hayes who went in Germany was pick #7.
Frank Ntilikina is a play-off player, but he plays for the Knicks.

Paris 2024 (Starters):
Malédon - Ntilikina - Strazel
Hayes - Ayayi
Fournier - Hoard
Doumbouya- Wembanyma - Tillie
Gobert - Sarr
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#16 » by nolang1 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:17 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
I like him, because he's really tough, aggressive and physical. Really strong. For a European comparison, he's sort of like a Jaka Blazic type, with a better basketball IQ. I can't really think of similar kinds of European players being drafted before. I'd have to think about it.

If he was French, he'd be a top 10 pick. If he was Greek, he'd have zero chance of being drafted. He's Lithuanian, but he's not a big man (NBA likes Lithuanians, as long as they are bigs)......just going by the logic the uses of clearly drafting based on stereotypes and nationalities for European players.


You were doing so well until that second paragraph


One of the biggest draft sites actually admitted before that NBA scouts do scout based on nationality. They do use a player's nationality in their scouting and in their determinations, and that they do use stereotypes for players, based on where they are from.

If you follow European basketball closely, you can easily see there is an extreme bias by the NBA in favor of French players. If any young French player even shows up on the rotation of a European team, they are immediately put into first round, or even lotto mock rankings.

This happens for absolutely no other nationality of players. Just look at guys like Okobo, Ntilikina, Howard Carter, Ajinca, Doumbouya, Hayes, Maledon, Toupane, Luwawu-Cabarrot, Lauvergne, Hoard, Ingles, Mahinmi, Moiso, Petro, Sy, etc.

Several European countries have numerous prospects that are better and more talented than such players every single year that don't even get drafted. You have numerous French guys being drafted by the NBA, even if they are not in the top 30 best players in Europe in their age group.

There is no chance at all that this happens by shear luck and good fortune of French players.

There is also a pro bias favor for Spanish players and for players from any of the former Yugo countries. There also seems to be a bias in favor of Turkish players recently.


Lol surely this has nothing to do with the fact that those countries win the bulk of the medals in European competitions.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#17 » by peZt » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:18 pm

The idea that NBA is racist towards greeks or other nationalities is absurd. That the NBA is biased towards turkish players is especially absurd. 6 players have been drafted since 2010 of which 3 are still successful in the league. The other three were late 2nd round stash picks anyway
But I think it's quite obvious that there is a certain bias towards french players. Doesn't have to be unjusticed biased, but I think they're held higher regards in terms of NBA potential than other nationalities. It's just a believe that they are more suited to the NBA game as they tend to be more athletic I think. But Maledon and especially Hayes need to deliver or their reputation will take a hit. French prospects have been more miss than hit in the last 15 years.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#18 » by Marcus » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:52 pm

This is what I didn't want this to turn into. If you guys are going to have a race convo about this do it in a PM. I'd like to keep this thread focused on the topic of 2021 prospects.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#19 » by nolang1 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:32 pm

Marcus wrote:This is what I didn't want this to turn into. If you guys are going to have a race convo about this do it in a PM. I'd like to keep this thread focused on the topic of 2021 prospects.


Where's 'you guys' coming from? It's one person and you're a mod.
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Re: 2021 international class 

Post#20 » by Marcus » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:55 pm

nolang1 wrote:
Marcus wrote:This is what I didn't want this to turn into. If you guys are going to have a race convo about this do it in a PM. I'd like to keep this thread focused on the topic of 2021 prospects.


Where's 'you guys' coming from? It's one person and you're a mod.


Speaking to where it could be headed.
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